Raw/natural Chitchat

[laffi]

I don't do much chopping, the only time I feed a finely chopped meat is the one day a week I feed vegies (which I'm not convinced they need but aren't sure they don't, just to fence sit on that question ). Most other food gets fed on the bone. A cow tongue might get cut in half, but not chopped. I don't go for a completley balanced meal everytime, it's balance over the week that I think about.

I think this is what people forget about (at least during the initial stages of feeding raw)

[Lab_Rat]

Wylie - is your dogs diet just made up of meat, offal and bones?? And how much do you feed each dog weight wise?

I guess there is always going to be arguments about which is better for dogs, veges or not, dry or not. The more opinions we get and the reasons behind those opinions will help out people like me, and others, hesitant to convert to a natural diet, be it totally meat based or not.

While wolves may not eat vegetables I dont think adding veges to our dogs meals will harm them, its just us humans that it will affect - in time and money!

Also the diet of every other domesticated animal and us has changed over time, so maybe a strict "wolf" diet isnt totally necessary. Not condemning others here, just making an observation!

Yellowgirl, my vet calls the whole dry food thing "propaganda", which cracks me up, although really its true. Tell someone something often enough and they will end up believing it to be true!

Has anyone seen a difference between using a food processor and a juicer? Does one do a better job than the other with the breakdown of vegetable matter?

Rat

[tomas]

But it just seems wrong somehow that my girl's weekly food budget is nearly as big as my own...

I guess I do well then,used to cost me way more than it does now,but I can feed 5 dogs 30-40kgs for less than 100 a week and usually less than 80!

Oh and my oldies all have lovely white teeth I had to take Charlie to the vet for a swollen toe last week,he had an infection,ripped it on a tree root running through the forest,she did a quick overall check as he had'nt been in for over 5 years and was telling me about plaque build up on older dogs teeth and opened his mouth and said nothing! I cracked up and said he ate a whole side of lamb for tea just before coming in and she looked at me dumbfounded!

[tomas]

Of course if I got a whole spleen I'd have to cut it up - is it weird to be envious of someone because they got a cow's spleen ?

Kinda,but I know what you mean,I am envious of those who can get brains and lungs! Go figure. I can get everything else I want just never ever found those bits!

Oh and my guys LOVE bull testicles!

[Staranais]

Oh, you've posted again while I was posting.

Firstly, as I've already pointed out, a shaken out rumen still contains vegetable matter. It really does. I've shaken one out. If wolves eat rumens, which they do, then they'll get processed green matter too.

Secondly, the fact wolves prefer small prey to large prey doesn't mean they don't eat plenty of small prey (Mech himself says that much), and it certainly doesn't mean that they don't need the nutritional value from small prey.

I don't seek out salad - but it's still really good for me. Evolution didn't program me to seek out salad since it was readily available, it programmed me to seek out sugar and fat since that was only available in limited quantities while my ancestors were evolving. However, if I only ate fat and sugar, no veges, I'd not have an optimal diet, since my body needs to eat vegetables as well as fat and sugar.

Same with wolves. Hunting large animals is more rewarding than small animals so it's not surprising that wolves have more of a drive to hunt larger animals, but if wolves have eaten small animals regularly over evolutionary time, then their bodies would still have adapted to eating those small animals.

I am going on what Mech writes,his books are heavy going but I really do subscribe to his writing. Wolves have eaten large animals regularly,small animals less regularly,his books have tables of wolf kills and species eaten.

I guess we will agree to disagree on the veggies

I eat salad too and it is just water,but I like it with balsamic vinegar so I eat it

We'll just have to disagree... but when I graduate, I'm browbeating my clients until I have converted the world to feeding raw with veges. Bwahahahah! (That was an evil laugh)

Seriously though, I think Mech's research is good, but I also think that type of research is sometimes misinterpreted by folks who try to adapt it to their dog without having any real idea of the anatomy of prey species (no offence meant to you, Tomas, for all I know you're a farmer who has dissected dozens of sheep).

I'm interested though, if you have the book handy, could you tell us what % of prey was large and which small according to Mech's tables? I suspect it would be different for different wolf populations & different ages of wolf, and also different in different years depending on what prey populations were doing, but I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about it.

[Diva]

Oops. double post

Edited August 12, 2009 by Diva

[Diva]

Of course if I got a whole spleen I'd have to cut it up - is it weird to be envious of someone because they got a cow's spleen ?

Kinda,but I know what you mean,I am envious of those who can get brains and lungs! Go figure. I can get everything else I want just never ever found those bits!

Oh and my guys LOVE bull testicles!

I've found pig's lungs - at an Asian butcher - look like foam rubber and the dogs were not impressed. Lambs' brains are very expensive. And now I'm envying your testicles, and that just doesn't sound right!!!

Edited August 12, 2009 by Diva

[tomas]

Wylie - is your dogs diet just made up of meat, offal and bones?? And how much do you feed each dog weight wise?

I guess there is always going to be arguments about which is better for dogs, veges or not, dry or not. The more opinions we get and the reasons behind those opinions will help out people like me, and others, hesitant to convert to a natural diet, be it totally meat based or not.

While wolves may not eat vegetables I dont think adding veges to our dogs meals will harm them, its just us humans that it will affect - in time and money!

Also the diet of every other domesticated animal and us has changed over time, so maybe a strict "wolf" diet isnt totally necessary. Not condemning others here, just making an observation!

Yellowgirl, my vet calls the whole dry food thing "propaganda", which cracks me up, although really its true. Tell someone something often enough and they will end up believing it to be true!

Has anyone seen a difference between using a food processor and a juicer? Does one do a better job than the other with the breakdown of vegetable matter?

Rat

I used to use a juicer when I did do veggies,worked better for me than a food processor.

I too think dry food is propaganda,but you can see how it is easier,I mean you just pour it out and don't have to think about balance over time do ya.

I feed my guys just meat offal and bones. They get between 750-1.5kgs a day,based on age,weight,energy level and what they look like.They are 30-40gs.

Only supplement I use is krill oil,more absorbable than fish I have found.

[tomas]

Of course if I got a whole spleen I'd have to cut it up - is it weird to be envious of someone because they got a cow's spleen ?

Kinda,but I know what you mean,I am envious of those who can get brains and lungs! Go figure. I can get everything else I want just never ever found those bits!

Oh and my guys LOVE bull testicles!

I've found pig's lungs - at an Asian butcher - look like foam rubber and the dogs were not impressed. Lambs' brains are very expensive.

I look there on occasion just never seen that good stuff. I mean they would'nt need it often anyway but I like offering fun stuff,I have 3 who will eat anything!

[oceanaussi]

Wow sounds like hard work! I don't chop the meat... it usually comes with max 300-500g pieces that are perfect size to feed as one meal for the day. If the butcher gives me bones bigger than that (like a huge brisket bone) I ask them to chop it up for me. I don't chop hearts or tongues I did have to cut up beef liver once but since then I was lucky to get it in smaller pieces.

Is the raw food roll BARF from canine country? If so I highly recommend it! I would feed it myself if I was still living in Brisbane (this + raw meaty bones).

Why do you say you feed 2kg/day but would only feed 1kg of the roll? Is it because you would add RMB? How much does your dog weight?

It was - I can tell you. I also split the pig head in half and had pig brain all over me. Hm, so you guys don't chop any of the meats...

I feed the raw food roll from Big Dog. Haven't been to Canine Country as it's too far.

On raw self prepared the calculation says I need to feed my boy (33 kg and he needs to add another 10) 1.4kg and my old girl 500 g (she's 25 kg and should loose a few kg). The raw roll says 20 g/kg - I guess because they're higher in fat.

[Staranais]

I don't use a juicer or blender. Too much work & I don't think it's necessary. I just freeze (and thaw) veges before feeding them, or cook them - thawing and cooking both break down plant cells walls quite sufficiently. I also give the occasional bit of fruit whole and raw.

Basically, if it doesn't come out the other end looking the same as it went in, then the dog's digested it, even if it wasn't juiced or pulped.

[tomas]

We'll just have to disagree... but when I graduate, I'm browbeating my clients until I have converted the world to feeding raw with veges. Bwahahahah! (That was an evil laugh)

Seriously though, I think Mech's research is good, but I also think that type of research is sometimes misinterpreted by folks who try to adapt it to their dog without having any real idea of the anatomy of prey species (no offence meant to you, Tomas, for all I know you're a farmer who has dissected dozens of sheep).

I'm interested though, if you have the book handy, could you tell us what % of prey was large and which small according to Mech's tables? I suspect it would be different for different wolf populations & different ages of wolf, and also different in different years depending on what prey populations were doing, but I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about it.

Nope I am a Personal Trainer and 'human' Nutritionist. I am a qualified Archaeologist though,don't ask,I had NO idea what I wanted to be when I was at University! So did that and a Geography. I did a year of Anatomy though ,does that count?

BTW when do you graduate? I will have to go find said book....

[tomas]

It was - I can tell you. I also split the pig head in half and had pig brain all over me. Hm, so you guys don't chop any of the meats...

I am SO inviting myself to your house! How fun was that !!!!! Mind you I have already stated here on like page 2 I like the smell of green tripe!

[Staranais]

We'll just have to disagree... but when I graduate, I'm browbeating my clients until I have converted the world to feeding raw with veges. Bwahahahah! (That was an evil laugh)

Seriously though, I think Mech's research is good, but I also think that type of research is sometimes misinterpreted by folks who try to adapt it to their dog without having any real idea of the anatomy of prey species (no offence meant to you, Tomas, for all I know you're a farmer who has dissected dozens of sheep).

I'm interested though, if you have the book handy, could you tell us what % of prey was large and which small according to Mech's tables? I suspect it would be different for different wolf populations & different ages of wolf, and also different in different years depending on what prey populations were doing, but I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about it.

Nope I am a Personal Trainer and 'human' Nutritionist. I am a qualified Archaeologist though,don't ask,I had NO idea what I wanted to be when I was at University! So did that and a Geography. I did a year of Anatomy though ,does that count?

BTW when do you graduate? I will have to go find said book....

Am in the middle of third year now, so graduate at the end of 2011. My first degree was genetics - I'm pretty indecisive too!

Would love to get the info when you find it.

[tomas]

We'll just have to disagree... but when I graduate, I'm browbeating my clients until I have converted the world to feeding raw with veges. Bwahahahah! (That was an evil laugh)

Seriously though, I think Mech's research is good, but I also think that type of research is sometimes misinterpreted by folks who try to adapt it to their dog without having any real idea of the anatomy of prey species (no offence meant to you, Tomas, for all I know you're a farmer who has dissected dozens of sheep).

I'm interested though, if you have the book handy, could you tell us what % of prey was large and which small according to Mech's tables? I suspect it would be different for different wolf populations & different ages of wolf, and also different in different years depending on what prey populations were doing, but I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about it.

Nope I am a Personal Trainer and 'human' Nutritionist. I am a qualified Archaeologist though,don't ask,I had NO idea what I wanted to be when I was at University! So did that and a Geography. I did a year of Anatomy though ,does that count?

BTW when do you graduate? I will have to go find said book....

Am in the middle of third year now, so graduate at the end of 2011. My first degree was genetics - I'm pretty indecisive too!

Would love to get the info when you find it.

Cool,decided on a thesis yet? I am looking ....and watching Fear Factor....

[tomas]

Just found this online though..

We investigated wolf feeding habits in relation to the abundance of wild and domestic ungulates to test the hypothesis that large prey are preferred and that their abundance affects the use of other food categories and diet breadth. We determined diet composition by scat analysis from December 1987 to December 1992. The research was carried out in three study areas located in northern Italy and characterised by marked differences in wild and domestic ungulate abundance. In study area A (low wild and domestic ungulate availability) fruits, livestock, other vertebrates and wild ungulates made up the bulk of the diet (71% in volume). In area B (high availability of livestock) wolf diet was mainly based on sheep and wild boars (80% in volume). In study area C (high availability of wild ungulates) wild ungulates were the main food of wolves (90% in volume). Significant differences were found among study areas in the mean percentage volume of all food categories and in particular for wild ungulates, livestock, other vertebrates and fruits (p < 0.0001 in all cases). Diet breadth decreased in areas with high availability of large wild and domestic herbivores. The use of livestock species was lower where there was high abundance, richness and diversity of the wild ungulate guild. Selection for wild ungulate species was partially affected by their abundance; however other factors as prey social behaviour, adaptability to the habitat (for introduced species), and body size could have an important role in species selection by wolves. In particular in area C wild boars were selected for, roe and red deers avoided, and fallow deers and mouflons used as available. Livestock species were used in relation to their abundance and accessibility, in particular sheep were selected for and cattle avoided; but if calves born in the pastures were considered as the only available cattle, they were selected for and sheep were used as available. Large and in particular wild herbivores were found to be of great importance for the wolf population maintenance in northern Italy, one of the most important recovery areas of Mediterranean wolves.

So these Italian wolves ate a lot of pork!!!!

[Staranais]

We'll just have to disagree... but when I graduate, I'm browbeating my clients until I have converted the world to feeding raw with veges. Bwahahahah! (That was an evil laugh)

Seriously though, I think Mech's research is good, but I also think that type of research is sometimes misinterpreted by folks who try to adapt it to their dog without having any real idea of the anatomy of prey species (no offence meant to you, Tomas, for all I know you're a farmer who has dissected dozens of sheep).

I'm interested though, if you have the book handy, could you tell us what % of prey was large and which small according to Mech's tables? I suspect it would be different for different wolf populations & different ages of wolf, and also different in different years depending on what prey populations were doing, but I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about it.

Nope I am a Personal Trainer and 'human' Nutritionist. I am a qualified Archaeologist though,don't ask,I had NO idea what I wanted to be when I was at University! So did that and a Geography. I did a year of Anatomy though ,does that count?

BTW when do you graduate? I will have to go find said book....

Am in the middle of third year now, so graduate at the end of 2011. My first degree was genetics - I'm pretty indecisive too!

Would love to get the info when you find it.

Cool,decided on a thesis yet? I am looking ....and watching Fear Factor....

Don't do one where I study - and we have so much to do already I don't know where we'd fit one in! Only one more year of full time lectures, then they throw us into the teaching clinic for a year to practice on real animals.

Might go back a few years after I graduate to specialise & get more fancy letters though. I'm a sucker for higher education.

Any ideas on a thesis topic yet? I'd love to do a feeding study on tartar build-up in cats which are fed dental kibble vs regular kibble vs pet roll vs pet roll supplemented with meaty bones & raw meat chunks, but that will have to wait a few years I'm afraid.

[tomas]

I found it online,don't have a scanner...page 7....is that what you wanted...

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=_mXHuSS...;q=&f=false

[Staranais]

Oh interesting, thanks! If you can quote the journal, authors and study name, I'll see if I can get full text through university so we can see the whole thing.

Not trying to insult you if you already know this, but you do know that p < 0.0001 mean that they're really sure of their result, not that the wolves ate less than 0.0001% other vertebrates and fruit, right? Just wondering cos you bolded it.

In study area A (low wild and domestic ungulate availability) fruits, livestock, other vertebrates and wild ungulates made up the bulk of the diet (71% in volume). In area B (high availability of livestock) wolf diet was mainly based on sheep and wild boars (80% in volume). In study area C (high availability of wild ungulates) wild ungulates were the main food of wolves (90% in volume). Significant differences were found among study areas in the mean percentage volume of all food categories and in particular for wild ungulates, livestock, other vertebrates and fruits (p < 0.0001 in all cases).

[tomas]

We'll just have to disagree... but when I graduate, I'm browbeating my clients until I have converted the world to feeding raw with veges. Bwahahahah! (That was an evil laugh)

Seriously though, I think Mech's research is good, but I also think that type of research is sometimes misinterpreted by folks who try to adapt it to their dog without having any real idea of the anatomy of prey species (no offence meant to you, Tomas, for all I know you're a farmer who has dissected dozens of sheep).

I'm interested though, if you have the book handy, could you tell us what % of prey was large and which small according to Mech's tables? I suspect it would be different for different wolf populations & different ages of wolf, and also different in different years depending on what prey populations were doing, but I'd be interested in hearing what he has to say about it.

Nope I am a Personal Trainer and 'human' Nutritionist. I am a qualified Archaeologist though,don't ask,I had NO idea what I wanted to be when I was at University! So did that and a Geography. I did a year of Anatomy though ,does that count?

BTW when do you graduate? I will have to go find said book....

Am in the middle of third year now, so graduate at the end of 2011. My first degree was genetics - I'm pretty indecisive too!

Would love to get the info when you find it.

Cool,decided on a thesis yet? I am looking ....and watching Fear Factor....

Don't do one where I study - and we have so much to do already I don't know where we'd fit one in! Only one more year of full time lectures, then they throw us into the teaching clinic for a year to practice on real animals.

Might go back a few years after I graduate to specialise & get more fancy letters though. I'm a sucker for higher education.

Any ideas on a thesis topic yet? I'd love to do a feeding study on tartar build-up in cats which are fed dental kibble vs regular kibble vs pet roll vs pet roll supplemented with meaty bones & raw meat chunks, but that will have to wait a few years I'm afraid.

Cool . I just posted a link to the Mech book online,there is a table on page 8,can't find my book...so far