Raw/natural Chitchat

[Staranais]

Ok, I just finished cleaning the kitchen (it's 12.20) after I've been preparing dogfood since 7 am and it will only last me a week! Do I do something wrong here???

My goodness, what were you doing in there so long?

For one week, I:

Go shopping

Put chicken backs in freezer

Put lamb hearts in freezer

Put lamb kidneys in freezer

Chop liver into 100g size pieces and put in freezer

So 15 minutes perhaps?

& on the day, I defrost meat or bone, and possibly make up porridge or open a can of fish or peel a banana, and that's it...

[tomas]

Ok, I just finished cleaning the kitchen (it's 12.20) after I've been preparing dogfood since 7 am and it will only last me a week! Do I do something wrong here???

Are you kidding? WHAT on earth are you doing for that long.

I feed 5 dogs everyday,takes 5 mins prep THAT day.

If you were mushing veggies? I don't feed veggies,complete waste of time IMO.

David Mech writes (worlds foremost expert on wolves and before anyone says our dogs are not wolves...google that one.)

"It has what is known as a simple stomach which cannot digest the

thick cellulose of most plants. Instead, the wolf can best digest

meat and fat. In addition, the wolf's teeth are shaped entirely

differently from the teeth of plant eaters. The latter are usually

flattened, rough, or blocky. The wolf's teeth, on the other hand, are

sharp and pointed-ideal for grabbing, holding, tearing, and shearing.

It is just as ludicrous to imagine a wolf munching branches or

gnawing tree bark as it is to think of a deer trying to catch and tear

apart another animal. A wolf is destined, by its whole anatomy, to be

a meat eater." from "The Way of the Wolf"

I also noticed that when Mech refers to wolves not needing/being able

to digest/eat plant matter, he's referring to vegetation in nature

that isn't recommended by Barfers to put into the veggie glop-branches

vs broccoli:)

So if the reason to blend, puree, and pulverize is because a wolf/dog

can't digest the cellulose from plants, then Mother Nature could not

have intended for wolves/dogs to eat them because she didn't create

them with the equipment to process them. The veggie thing has to be

a man made edifice.

If you read the Mech books, you'll find that all kinds of research and

conclusions on wolves are drawn from working with the physiology of

dogs. If that is good enough for Mech, who is a researcher and a

scientist, its got to be good enough for me:) Mech has no interest in

what i feed my dogs, he needs scientific data to further his goals of

studying wolves and their place in the world and conservation.

In regards to kibble, i think we can assume that the same people who

tell us kibble is good for our dogs are the same people who tell us

veggies are necessary for our dogs. Pictures of fresh beans and

carrots make a very attractive bag/ad for a bag of kibble. After all,

everyone knows we need to eat our veggies:) Marketing at its finest

playing on old held beliefs that if its good for us and if we love our

dogs than it must be good for them. Lots of emotion, no logic. Lots

of sales means lots of cash:)

In reading the Mech books, he discusses about wolves being

opportunistic carnivores. He has observed them scavenging on garbage

at dump sites to eat. Wolves can/will eat anything to survive and

since they are not obligate carnivores, they will survive on any type

of diet, but we don't want our dogs just to survive;we want our dogs

to thrive and get the best and have the best shot at a healthy life

that we can offer them.

[Staranais]

So if the reason to blend, puree, and pulverize is because a wolf/dog

can't digest the cellulose from plants, then Mother Nature could not

have intended for wolves/dogs to eat them because she didn't create

them with the equipment to process them. The veggie thing has to be

a man made edifice.

I'd argue with that. :-)

First I'd argue with the notion that wolves don't eat vegetable matter.

Wolves have been observed to eat unprocessed vegetation and fruit, e.g. in Yellowstone park in seasons where prey was scarce (which is of course a not uncommon scenario in wild populations, where predator and prey cycles ensure hunting is regularly scarce).

Wolves also eat vegetable matter in the rumen & intestines of prey species. They eat small prey whole - including the gut contents - which contains processed vegetation and grains. They tend to shake out the guts of large species, but due to the huge surface area of the rumen, there is always a reasonable amount of vegetable content eaten along with the guts (I've opened and cleaned out a rumen, and can assure you that there's no way you could get all that vegetable matter out just by shaking - even a thoroughly shaken out rumen still contains a fair amount of half fermented vegetable matter stuck to the walls).

So processed vegetable content is a minor part of the diet of wolves and feral dogs. If you're aiming to replicate a wild wolf's diet, then you need to include some vegetable matter to do so.

Secondly, I'd argue with the popular notion that dogs "can't" digest vegetables because they can't digest the cellulose found in cell walls. To start with, it's silly claim - humans can't digest cellulose either, yet we obviously seem to be able to get nutritional value out of vegetables! It's also possible to observe that while some vegetables my dog eats certainly do come out the same shape they went in (eg, carrots spring to mind), some vegetable products just don't reappear at the other end. If they're not breaking down in the dog's guts, then where are they going? And if they are breaking down, how can the dog "not digest" them?

Not picking on you Tomas - just think you're wrong.

[yellowgirl]

Yay, friendly debate

So if the reason to blend, puree, and pulverize is because a wolf/dog can't digest the cellulose from plants, then Mother Nature could not have intended for wolves/dogs to eat them because she didn't create them with the equipment to process them. The veggie thing has to be a man made edifice

I think dogs do need the nutritional content of a small amount of vegies/grain because they eat the whole digestive tract of their prey. Green tripe (highly favoured by many prey-model feeders) is completely lined with the partially digested food of herbivores. Maybe that's the way Mother Nature intended for them to get the nutrients from veggies/grain. Mushing them up in a blender is a way to mimic the undigested veg in the prey's stomach lining. As most of us are not feeding green tripe, this seems like a good way to replace the nutrients the dogs are missing. Mech says the wolves pierce the stomach and scatter the contents and eat everything bar the actual bulk of vegetation from the stomach. But they eat all the rest.

I'd love to get to the bottom of this conundrum one day

I totally agree with you about pet food marketing. Brain washing based on false information at it's finest!

ETA - heehee, snap Staranais

Edited August 12, 2009 by yellowgirl

[Lab_Rat]

Whew - 17 pages of very interesting and helpful info!!!

I am in the midst (which has lasted about two years now ) of trying to convert to feeding a raw/natural diet to my dogs. I am still clinging to the safeness of dry food and its "completeness"( stoopid I know, but Im sure you all know how the human brain works :cry: ) whilst trying to convince said brain that we humans dont dine on a processed kibble, so why should the dogs??? I think Im winning .

Wandy the kelpie Im sure will thrive on the new diet. But I do worry about Zola the ridgy. She has "animal protein" issues, and although she does well on lamb, occasional chicken carcasses & wings, I worry that she wont do so well on a natural raw diet and will have to remain on a commercial food. At the moment they have both dry food and raw meat/bones with cooked veges.

So really all I need to do is stop with the dry food, add some offal & fish, and maybe a couple of other things and we'll be on our way, yes?? So why is it so hard for me to do??????

I guess I am part nerd also, and do worry that if I dont get all the amounts correct I will be doing the wrong thing by my dogs - which is stupid when I look at what I feed us humans. Most of the time its a fairly balanced diet, with a few hiccups due to shiftwork and lack of interest. But the both of us are quite healthy and dont seem to be afflicted with any diseases. In fact neither of us has even had a cold/flu this season, so I must be doing something right

So my dogs only need a meal around 2.5% of their bodyweight?? Is this the amounts others feed?? Sorry, after reading 17 pages I dont remember if anyone mentioned this.

And veges dont need cooking then processing?? What about veges like sweet potato?? At the moment I cook then process veges. I use sweet potato, broccoli, cauliflower, zuchinni, carrot and they also get a bit of fruit when I feel like sharing, although if I have over ripe bananas they get them also.

How long did it take for people to feel confident in how they were feeding their dogs??

Sorry for so many questions, but reassurance is helpful

Rat

[tomas]

So if the reason to blend, puree, and pulverize is because a wolf/dog

can't digest the cellulose from plants, then Mother Nature could not

have intended for wolves/dogs to eat them because she didn't create

them with the equipment to process them. The veggie thing has to be

a man made edifice.

I'd argue with that. :-)

First I'd argue with the notion that wolves don't eat vegetable matter.

Wolves have been observed to eat unprocessed vegetation and fruit, e.g. in Yellowstone park in seasons where prey was scarce (which is of course a not uncommon scenario in wild populations, where predator and prey cycles ensure hunting is regularly scarce).

Wolves also eat vegetable matter in the rumen & intestines of prey species. They eat small prey whole - including the gut contents - which contains processed vegetation and grains. They tend to shake out the guts of large species, but due to the huge surface area of the rumen, there is always a reasonable amount of vegetable content eaten along with the guts (I've opened and cleaned out a rumen, and can assure you that there's no way you could get all that vegetable matter out just by shaking - even a thoroughly shaken out rumen still contains a fair amount of half fermented vegetable matter stuck to the walls).

So processed vegetable content is a minor part of the diet of wolves and feral dogs. If you're aiming to replicate a wild wolf's diet, then you need to include some vegetable matter to do so.

Secondly, I'd argue with the popular notion that dogs "can't" digest vegetables because they can't digest the cellulose found in cell walls. To start with, it's silly claim - humans can't digest cellulose either, yet we obviously seem to be able to get nutritional value out of vegetables! It's also possible to observe that while some vegetables my dog eats certainly do come out the same shape they went in (eg, carrots spring to mind), some vegetable products just don't reappear at the other end. If they're not breaking down in the dog's guts, then where are they going? And if they are breaking down, how can the dog "not digest" them?

Not picking on you Tomas - just think you're wrong.

Star and yellowgirl I am trying to save these people some time! LOL.

Dogs don't have molars to crush vegetable matter,they CAN eat it,but they can also eat a whole bunch of stuff and 'survive'...what I am saying is it is not NEEDED. I can't be bothered with veggies,yes I did that maybe for 2 years about 10 years ago and my guys do even better without it. They get meat,edible bone and offal. I go through phases with Tripe,have even not fed it for over a year ,to no detriment of them,they look and act just the same without it.

As I said in my post if it is good enough for the worlds foremost expert on Wolves and our dogs ARE wolves save a few dna sequences,then I am good with that.

[yellowgirl]

So really all I need to do is stop with the dry food, add some offal & fish, and maybe a couple of other things and we'll be on our way, yes?? So why is it so hard for me to do??????

Yep, that's all you need to do .

It's hard because we've been conditioned for years and years by the pet food companies who use cheap grains as the base of their dry foods and have spent a lot of money to convince us that it's in our dogs best interest to feed this way. You're certainly not alone in finding it hard to make the transition and leave the marketing myths behind .

And veges dont need cooking then processing?? What about veges like sweet potato?? At the moment I cook then process veges. I use sweet potato, broccoli, cauliflower, zuchinni, carrot and they also get a bit of fruit when I feel like sharing, although if I have over ripe bananas they get them also.

No need to cook, RAW is the key . But they need to be mushed up.

How long did it take for people to feel confident in how they were feeding their dogs??

Sorry for so many questions, but reassurance is helpful

I felt confident that I was doing the right thing straight away. Once I got my brain around the fact that they don't need kibble, that was it!

Questions are good . As you can see from my first post and the changes to the recipe along the way, it's great to have input from others who are on the same page. In the end, after weighing it all up, you do what you think is the best for your own dog based on all the info you have

[tomas]

The wolves/dogs eating of stomach contents 'philosophy' began as a misunderstanding of what had been written - it was written that wolves would tear into the stomach and eat into the animal from there, when what was meant was that the abdomen was torn open, as it makes for easy access to the softer organ parts. The misinterpretation of abdomen/stomach lead to the misunderstanding that wolves ate, and indeed needed these contents to be healthy. On the contrary, its been noted that once the stomach is torn open and freed from the animal,its contents are shaken out and strewn around for smaller predators to consume once the wolves are finished with the carcass.

Wolves primarily eat deer, elk, caribou, moose, bison, mountain sheep,mountain goats , or musk-oxen according to David Mech. He states that although they will eat mice, birds, and rabbits a wolf invests most of its time into trying to capture large animals because they yield enough food for the pack and because it cannot meet its needs in the

long run by hunting small animals.

They'll expend the energy to hunt small prey to survive, but it is bassackwards, to me, to think that they need to eat/get supplements necessary to survive and be healthy from

the tiny stomach contents they might get from eating an occasional small prey animal that they are forced to hunt/eat in order to avoid starving.

If the veggies in the stomach of a small prey animal were actually important, a supplement, Mother Nature would have given themthe drive/instinct to hunt small creatures individually-away from thepack- on an everyday/very often basis, not on a forced to survive basis. Wolves hunt as a pack in a strategic manner. They hunt to feed the pack. A rabbit isn't enough food for one wolf let alone a pack. Survival of a species couldn't be dependent on the occasional forced hunting/catching of a rabbit to get the supplement from the stomach of that small prey animal to survive. Wolves would be extinct if that were how they were engineered. To date, man is their only threat for extinction.

From "The Way of the Wolf," by Mech (p.60):

"Although wolves are primarily killers of large mammals, they will

take smaller creatures such as mice and hares, which they must chase

and run down. These form a very low proportion of the wolf's diet but

may be important when raising pups. This is because younger and less

experienced wolves in the pack can hunt smaller prey and help feed

themselves and the pups when food demand is especially high."

Again, the small prey is a survival tactic. It helps the pack to survive when food demand is high. It helps the younger wolves take the burden to provide off the older ones. The older wolves don't eat the small prey animals. They're off eating the big ones:) I just don't hear supplementation for optimal health from this.

[wylie]

Another total RAW feeder here who does not believe in giving dogs vegie matter. Did it for 12 months and got frustrated with it on the whole.

Now i just grab boxes out of the freezer, defrost them either in the fridge for a couple of days or outside covered overnight and feed them.

Mine eaten frozen bones and carcasses without an issue.

Its my issue when i get frozen hands trying to separate the carcasses to hand out.

[Staranais]

Star and yellowgirl I am trying to save these people some time! LOL.

Dogs don't have molars to crush vegetable matter,they CAN eat it,but they can also eat a whole bunch of stuff and 'survive'...what I am saying is it is not NEEDED. I can't be bothered with veggies,yes I did that maybe for 2 years about 10 years ago and my guys do even better without it. They get meat,edible bone and offal. I go through phases with Tripe,have even not fed it for over a year ,to no detriment of them,they look and act just the same without it.

As I said in my post if it is good enough for the worlds foremost expert on Wolves and our dogs ARE wolves save a few dna sequences,then I am good with that.

I suspect that there are many things that dogs can survive and even thrive on in the short term which are not ideal in the long term. My old dog looked just the same on kibble as he did on raw - does that mean I should have fed him kibble?

The truth is that we just don't know what the optimal diet for a dog is, and no one has done the long term studies to show what happens to a dog's health or longevity if we leave out vegetable matter, or kidney, or fish, or whatever, over the course of a dog's lifetime.

All we can do is feed our best approximation of what wild wolves would eat, and use the limited science that is available to us. From what I understand, Mech will tell you that wolves eat small prey whole, and will tell you that wolves eat shaken out large animal intestine - thereby consuming a not inconsiderable amount of vegetable matter in their diet.

So perhaps dogs don't get any long term benefit from eating plant matter. Perhaps they do get health benefits from it. Perhaps only some dogs benefit from plant matter, or perhaps there is only a benefit to eating plant matter if the dog becomes sick or stressed (sick dogs have been shown to benefit from vitamin C, for example, and there's really no way to get that except from vegetable matter). We have no way of telling which of these is the case. Why not be safe rather than sorry? Afterall, if we just wanted to save time, we'd all feed kibble.

[oceanaussi]

Hmmm, obviously I must have done something wrong.

Ok, here's what I did:

First I did my calcs, then I sorted the meat (RMB, offal, muscle meat and mince). Then I decided on which veggies I'm going to use. I don't really want to get into the debate about feeding veggies or not - I'm just going to try and see what seems to be best on my dogs. Then I tried to figure out how to use the chopper, then I chopped all the veggies and noticed that I don't have enough bowls to put them - especially as I just done some and I wanted to have a variety of all of them together. After I chopped the veggies I blended them. Then I chooped some more (as not all of them fitted in my bowl) and of course stupid me left the lid of the blender of and ended up with veggie slop all over the window and curtains.

Ah well, then I chopped all the meats and put them together in 5 kg bags. Chopping a tongue is hard work! Of course I weight everything as I went which didn't take long. Then I filled the veggie slop in bags and carried it all downstairs to the freezer.

I guess the veggies took me the longest and the chopping of the meat. I thought maybe next time I just freeze it in portion packs and chop the meat when I use it and same with the veggies - just use what's in the house and stick it in the blender.

I feed around 2 kg a day. I can get prepared raw food roll for $2.90/kg and I would only feed 1 kg a day of that. Might work out easier for me just not really cheaper. I paid $40 at the butcher and $30 for fruits and veggies, but more than half of them are for the birds and me. I just don't want to have to do all that work and the mess in the kitchen...

[Staranais]

Oh, you've posted again while I was posting.

Firstly, as I've already pointed out, a shaken out rumen still contains vegetable matter. It really does. I've shaken one out. If wolves eat rumens, which they do, then they'll get processed green matter too.

Secondly, the fact wolves prefer small prey to large prey doesn't mean they don't eat plenty of small prey (Mech himself says that much), and it certainly doesn't mean that they don't need the nutritional value from small prey.

I don't seek out salad - but it's still really good for me. Evolution didn't program me to seek out salad since it was readily available, it programmed me to seek out sugar and fat since that was only available in limited quantities while my ancestors were evolving. However, if I only ate fat and sugar, no veges, I'd not have an optimal diet, since my body needs to eat vegetables as well as fat and sugar.

Same with wolves. Hunting large animals is more rewarding than small animals so it's not surprising that wolves have more of a drive to hunt larger animals, but if wolves have eaten small animals regularly over evolutionary time, then their bodies would still have adapted to eating those small animals.

[tomas]

Afterall, if we just wanted to save time, we'd all feed kibble.

and we don't want to do that!

[Staranais]

Afterall, if we just wanted to save time, we'd all feed kibble.

and we don't want to do that!

Well, actually, sometimes I look at my supermarket bill and am very tempted to feed kibble alone.

Just joking!

[tomas]

Ah well, then I chopped all the meats and put them together in 5 kg bags. Chopping a tongue is hard work! Of course I weight everything as I went which didn't take long. Then I filled the veggie slop in bags and carried it all downstairs to the freezer.

I agree and chopping a whole beef spleen took me a huge amount of time a few months back,still have over half of it left too!

I can see your time was well spent then ,was just pulling ya leg

[tomas]

Afterall, if we just wanted to save time, we'd all feed kibble.

and we don't want to do that!

Well, actually, sometimes I look at my supermarket bill and am very tempted to feed kibble alone.

Just joking!

I will admit to thinking that myself,I see some peoples dogs at shows and know what they feed,these dogs are stunning and think IF only I did that,it would be so much easier.

But longterm it makes a difference, I have 3 dogs over 8yrs and they still run hard minimum 3 hours everyday! Plus they certainly do not look their age.

[tomas]

Oh, you've posted again while I was posting.

Firstly, as I've already pointed out, a shaken out rumen still contains vegetable matter. It really does. I've shaken one out. If wolves eat rumens, which they do, then they'll get processed green matter too.

Secondly, the fact wolves prefer small prey to large prey doesn't mean they don't eat plenty of small prey (Mech himself says that much), and it certainly doesn't mean that they don't need the nutritional value from small prey.

I don't seek out salad - but it's still really good for me. Evolution didn't program me to seek out salad since it was readily available, it programmed me to seek out sugar and fat since that was only available in limited quantities while my ancestors were evolving. However, if I only ate fat and sugar, no veges, I'd not have an optimal diet, since my body needs to eat vegetables as well as fat and sugar.

Same with wolves. Hunting large animals is more rewarding than small animals so it's not surprising that wolves have more of a drive to hunt larger animals, but if wolves have eaten small animals regularly over evolutionary time, then their bodies would still have adapted to eating those small animals.

I am going on what Mech writes,his books are heavy going but I really do subscribe to his writing. Wolves have eaten large animals regularly,small animals less regularly,his books have tables of wolf kills and species eaten.

I guess we will agree to disagree on the veggies

I eat salad too and it is just water,but I like it with balsamic vinegar so I eat it

[Diva]

I don't do much chopping, the only time I feed a finely chopped meat is the one day a week I feed vegies (which I'm not convinced they need but aren't sure they don't, just to fence sit on that question ). Most other food gets fed on the bone. A cow tongue might get cut in half, but not chopped. I don't go for a completley balanced meal everytime, it's balance over the week that I think about.

Of course if I got a whole spleen I'd have to cut it up - is it weird to be envious of someone because they got a cow's spleen ?

[laffi]

Hmmm, obviously I must have done something wrong.

Ok, here's what I did:

First I did my calcs, then I sorted the meat (RMB, offal, muscle meat and mince). Then I decided on which veggies I'm going to use. I don't really want to get into the debate about feeding veggies or not - I'm just going to try and see what seems to be best on my dogs. Then I tried to figure out how to use the chopper, then I chopped all the veggies and noticed that I don't have enough bowls to put them - especially as I just done some and I wanted to have a variety of all of them together. After I chopped the veggies I blended them. Then I chooped some more (as not all of them fitted in my bowl) and of course stupid me left the lid of the blender of and ended up with veggie slop all over the window and curtains.

Ah well, then I chopped all the meats and put them together in 5 kg bags. Chopping a tongue is hard work! Of course I weight everything as I went which didn't take long. Then I filled the veggie slop in bags and carried it all downstairs to the freezer.

I guess the veggies took me the longest and the chopping of the meat. I thought maybe next time I just freeze it in portion packs and chop the meat when I use it and same with the veggies - just use what's in the house and stick it in the blender.

I feed around 2 kg a day. I can get prepared raw food roll for $2.90/kg and I would only feed 1 kg a day of that. Might work out easier for me just not really cheaper. I paid $40 at the butcher and $30 for fruits and veggies, but more than half of them are for the birds and me. I just don't want to have to do all that work and the mess in the kitchen...

Wow sounds like hard work! I don't chop the meat... it usually comes with max 300-500g pieces that are perfect size to feed as one meal for the day. If the butcher gives me bones bigger than that (like a huge brisket bone) I ask them to chop it up for me. I don't chop hearts or tongues I did have to cut up beef liver once but since then I was lucky to get it in smaller pieces.

Is the raw food roll BARF from canine country? If so I highly recommend it! I would feed it myself if I was still living in Brisbane (this + raw meaty bones).

Why do you say you feed 2kg/day but would only feed 1kg of the roll? Is it because you would add RMB? How much does your dog weight?

[Staranais]

Afterall, if we just wanted to save time, we'd all feed kibble.

and we don't want to do that!

Well, actually, sometimes I look at my supermarket bill and am very tempted to feed kibble alone.

Just joking!

I will admit to thinking that myself,I see some peoples dogs at shows and know what they feed,these dogs are stunning and think IF only I did that,it would be so much easier.

But longterm it makes a difference, I have 3 dogs over 8yrs and they still run hard minimum 3 hours everyday! Plus they certainly do not look their age.

Yes, I think it does too, especially to teeth! Some dogs still get tartar when they eat meaty bones, but from what I've seen, it's far less common.

But it just seems wrong somehow that my girl's weekly food budget is nearly as big as my own...