Raw/natural Chitchat

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Ok revising plan - THANK YOU LAFFI! And THANK YOU YG!

Day 1 - split meal (halved and mixed together)

200 grams of Chicken Pet Mince (which is chcicken frames some skin and necks minced - checked this out yesterday)

200 grams of lamb heart minced

200 grams of lamb liver minced

100 grams of processed vegies with a tablespoon of yoghurt.

Day 2 - breakfast

Chicken Maryland

Dinner

1 tin of saradines

100 grams of salmon from tin

100 grams of processed veggies and a table spoon of yoghurt

Day 3 - breakfast

2 Lamb Flaps

Dinner

200 grams of roo mince

200 grams of lamb tongue minced

100 grams of processed veggies and a tablespoon of yoghurt

Day 4 - (halved and mixed together)

200 grams of chicken pet mince

200 grams of roo mince

200 of lamb kidney

100 grams of processed veggies and a tablespoon of yoghurt

Day 5 -

one brisket bone (250-350 grams) and natural treats

Day 6 - breakfast

200 grams of chicken pet mince

200 grams of roo mince

Combined with one entire egg - shell and all and a tablespoon of yohurt

Dinner

1 Salmon Head

Day 7 - Breakfast

200 grams of chicken pet mince

200 grams of roo mince

100 grams of processed veggies and a table spoon of yoghurt

Dinner

Turkey wing

So this is what has changed

RMBs

400 grams 200 grams of Chicken Pet Mince

? Large lamb or beef brisket bones 1 Chicken Marykand (300 grams)

~300g Half a chicken frame 2 Lamb Flaps (200 grams) This might be too much or in the meat section???

~300gTurkey wing

400 grams 200 grams of chicken pet mince

? one brisket bone aprrox 250-350 grams

200 grams of chicken pet mince

? a large brisket bone

200 grams of chicken pet mince

= 1.8kg bones + 3x brisket bones

MEAT

150 grams 200 grams of lamb heart minced

1 tin of saradines (~150g)

100 grams of salmon from tin

200 gra,s of lamb heart

150 grams 200 grams of roo mince

2 1 Salmon heads (? 1-1.5kg)

200 grams of roo mince

200 grams of roo mince

200 grams of roo mince

200 grams of lamb tongue minced

= 0.9 kg + ?1-1.5kg? =1.9kg

ORGANS

50 grams 200 grams of lamb liver minced

50 200 hramsof lamb kidney

So would this be more balamced Laffi? Sorry I don't know how you calculate this

Edited August 10, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[First Time Puppy Owner]

one other question;

i think i will probably need to keep some kibble b/c of work commitments

can't decide - artemis grain free v's proplan salmon and rice

Personally I have liked Artemis Macimal Dog but have decided that I need to eliminate even more things from Benon's diet just so I am satisfied that things such as tomatos's and apples are not further contributing - which are contained in this product. Yet that is not to say they are causing any of his issues, however I have decided I need to be in control of what he consumes now.

Also re testing - I had my guess about what he was allergic to prior to the testing however oats had not been one I would have thought off, so due to the testing I have discontinued use of Aloveen as it contains oatmeal and use Ruffs & Coco Itchy Skin shampoo as Pyohex and Malaesba where too harsh for weekly washing after a while and caused dandruff.

However it is an expensice journey and I am so fortunate that I have insurance or otherwise I would not known what I could have done for Benson. It's a hard road too as nothing is simple and results are a long time coming! So it's a choice everyone needs to make according to their own situation.

Edited August 10, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[First Time Puppy Owner]

I have another question for you lovely raw feeders - do you freeze your vegies that you either pulp or process???

[oonga]

For us, just fish body oil for omegas & kelp for iodine. If I had an elderly or arthritic dog, I'd add glucosamine/chondroitin as well.

If you're feeding a well balanced raw diet, then I don't think the other popular supplements (brewers yeast etc) are necessary.

do you think you could do harm by adding too many?

Yes, definitely. Too much iodine (from kelp) is not good for dogs, if you go overboard it can induce hypothyroidism.

How much kelp would be considered too much??

Like in the teaspoon of that supplement i give kelp is one ingredient amongst others so not sure how much is in it?

Same as the muesli has kelp but again it is one ingredient amongst others??

[Staranais]

For us, just fish body oil for omegas & kelp for iodine. If I had an elderly or arthritic dog, I'd add glucosamine/chondroitin as well.

If you're feeding a well balanced raw diet, then I don't think the other popular supplements (brewers yeast etc) are necessary.

do you think you could do harm by adding too many?

Yes, definitely. Too much iodine (from kelp) is not good for dogs, if you go overboard it can induce hypothyroidism. ;)

How much kelp would be considered too much??

Like in the teaspoon of that supplement i give kelp is one ingredient amongst others so not sure how much is in it?

Same as the muesli has kelp but again it is one ingredient amongst others??

Depends how much iodine is in your kelp, it can vary quite a bit.

Most animals need a longterm & very high level iodine overdose to cause any problems, so just stick to somewhere near the recommended dose for your supplement and you should be fine. I put a pinch of pure kelp powder in my dog & cats's food once a week, not sure how much I'd need to give them to cause problems, but that seems to work OK so far. You don't need much iodine but some is essential.

[oceanaussi]

Where do you get things like lamb tongue and salmon head from???? Stupid question, but what is chicken maryland?

[yellowgirl]

FTPO, it looks like your new plan has way too much bone in it especially if the pet mince is minced chicken frames. The ratio should be around 80% meat and 10% bone, at the moment yours looks closer to 50/50.

I know I said I wasn't going to micro-manage, sometimes I can't help myself ;)

[Staranais]

FTPO, it looks like your new plan has way too much bone in it especially if the pet mince is minced chicken frames. The ratio should be around 80% meat and 10% bone, at the moment yours looks closer to 50/50.

I know I said I wasn't going to micro-manage, sometimes I can't help myself ;)

Not trying to nit pick in our lovely friendly thread. But remember that RMB aren't all bone. If we take the RMB as being 40% bone and 60% meat (which is pretty typical) then the overall diet is roughly about 73% meat, 10% organ, and 18% bone. I (personally) wouldn't give much less bone than that.

;)

[huski]

I have another question for you lovely raw feeders - do you freeze your vegies that you either pulp or process???

Yep, I always make enough to freeze lots ;)

[oonga]

hmmm ok not sure about the supplement now ;)

I have no idea how much iodine is in the kelp in it?? nor does it say anywhere?

plus if she gets that supplement on some days and the muesli which also has kelp in it on other days then maybe all combined it is too much kelp

[Staranais]

I have no idea how much iodine is in the kelp in it?? nor does it say anywhere?

plus if she gets that supplement on some days and the muesli which also has kelp in it on other days then maybe all combined it is too much kelp ;)

The manufacturers possibly don't know how much iodine is in it themselves if they haven't had it analysed, plus it could be different each batch as kelp is a natural product with natural variation.

If you're feeding the recommended amounts & feeding the supplements on different days, I really wouldn't worry about it. If you were feeding 10 different daily supplements all containing kelp, maybe it would be time to worry about iodine levels then. But I'm sure what you're doing will be just fine.

[oonga]

ahhh ok yep that makes more sense Staranais ;)

[yellowgirl]

FTPO, it looks like your new plan has way too much bone in it especially if the pet mince is minced chicken frames. The ratio should be around 80% meat and 10% bone, at the moment yours looks closer to 50/50.

I know I said I wasn't going to micro-manage, sometimes I can't help myself ;)

Not trying to nit pick in our lovely friendly thread. But remember that RMB aren't all bone. If we take the RMB as being 40% bone and 60% meat (which is pretty typical) then the overall diet is roughly about 73% meat, 10% organ, and 18% bone. I (personally) wouldn't give much less bone than that.

;)

Just wondering about the pet mince though, as it's generally just a chicken carcass with almost no meat. I worked it out the opposite way, about 60% bone & 40% meat because of the amount of pet mince. Would that still be okay for the overall diet?

* ETA - oh, and here's a little job for you all (please) ;) http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=174068

Edited August 10, 2009 by yellowgirl

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Where do you get things like lamb tongue and salmon head from???? Stupid question, but what is chicken maryland?

Hi Ocean - Salmon Heads I will be sourcing from Scarborough at Morgans Seafood and Lambs Tongues from Jack Purcell's Meats at Virginia.

Edit - Check out post number 2 of this thread! http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=156406

Edited August 10, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[First Time Puppy Owner]

FTPO, it looks like your new plan has way too much bone in it especially if the pet mince is minced chicken frames. The ratio should be around 80% meat and 10% bone, at the moment yours looks closer to 50/50.

I know I said I wasn't going to micro-manage, sometimes I can't help myself ;)

Not trying to nit pick in our lovely friendly thread. But remember that RMB aren't all bone. If we take the RMB as being 40% bone and 60% meat (which is pretty typical) then the overall diet is roughly about 73% meat, 10% organ, and 18% bone. I (personally) wouldn't give much less bone than that.

;)

Just wondering about the pet mince though, as it's generally just a chicken carcass with almost no meat. I worked it out the opposite way, about 60% bone & 40% meat because of the amount of pet mince. Would that still be okay for the overall diet?

* ETA - oh, and here's a little job for you all (please) :p http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=174068

Mind reader! ;) I was just about to ask this question .... well more along the lines of how do you guys calculate this???

[First Time Puppy Owner]

I have another question for you lovely raw feeders - do you freeze your vegies that you either pulp or process???

Yep, I always make enough to freeze lots

Cool thanks Huski - aws thinking it would be painful to use the food processor so many times a week! ;)

My first vegie batch will include 4 different vegies - aucchini, carrots, broccolu and baby pak choy (on special for $0.98 cents for a bunch!)

Edited August 10, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[yellowgirl]

Alright, haven't read the entire thread but I printed it all out and will read it later on. I currently feed a mixture of dry and raw because I'm worried that I don't get the right ratios of everything when I just feed raw. Plus kibble is more confinient when we travel. However, I'm thinking of converting over to raw but I personally find it challenging doing the shopping, getting it mixed up, having enough space in the fridge/freezer ect. I have a Weimaraner and they tend to bloat I thought raw might be a safer alternative.

Welcome to the thread oceanaussi . The idea is to keep it pretty simple ...not that we've necessarily acheived that here ;) but hey, we're all learning as we go along ;) . As a general guide you want the diet to contain mostly meat, some bones and some organs. As you can see, many of us also like to add minced veggies, fish, eggs and a few other goodies ;) . It's very much a personal choice and comes down to what suits you and your dog the best . Just keep the ratios for meat, bones and organs 'around about' 80/10/10. Your dog doesn't have to get every single nutrient in every single meal, you're looking more for a balanced overall diet :p

[yellowgirl]

Mind reader! ;) I was just about to ask this question .... well more along the lines of how do you guys calculate this???

I just make it up! ;)

[Staranais]

FTPO, it looks like your new plan has way too much bone in it especially if the pet mince is minced chicken frames. The ratio should be around 80% meat and 10% bone, at the moment yours looks closer to 50/50.

I know I said I wasn't going to micro-manage, sometimes I can't help myself ;)

Not trying to nit pick in our lovely friendly thread. But remember that RMB aren't all bone. If we take the RMB as being 40% bone and 60% meat (which is pretty typical) then the overall diet is roughly about 73% meat, 10% organ, and 18% bone. I (personally) wouldn't give much less bone than that.

;)

Just wondering about the pet mince though, as it's generally just a chicken carcass with almost no meat. I worked it out the opposite way, about 60% bone & 40% meat because of the amount of pet mince. Would that still be okay for the overall diet?

Hmmm, even so though, that's still only about 22% of the diet as actual bone. I'd be comfortable feeding that, even though it's a little higher than "true" prey model- adult dogs are superb at regulating their Ca absorption, plus the chicken bone she's using is much lower in Ca and P than beef or lamb bone. I certainly wouldn't want to see her feeding much less than 15% actual bone.

So she's currently feeding about 22% of the diet as actual bone (= 45% of the diet as RMB, or 2000g of the 4400g total is RMB). 15% of the diet as actual bone would be 25% of the diet as RMB (= 1100g of the 4400g total). IMO anywhere in between those figures would probably be fine.

eta: you're right, we're not keeping it simple! Sorry, oceanaussie. It's easier than we make it look. ;)

Edited August 10, 2009 by Staranais

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Star would you suggest I further reduce the chicken mince and up the muscle meat? When formulating this I was concerning the fact that the Ca ratio of chicken compared to red meaty bones/ See I am not 100% sure as to whether Benson reacts (even though it might be mildly) to beef so am going to steer clear of it for now and irentroduce it after a good 3 mth period to see if is a protein he is allergic to.