louloud Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Hi there, I posted a while ago about my dog and a very difficult problem behaviour she has. From a very young age she has gone nuts (barking frantically, circling, guarding people) if she thinks they are going to leave the house wether it be a family member or visitor. She is just over a year old now with no improvement. We have had a dog behaviourist come in for a home consultation previously and he advised that it could be a pack order problem with her thinking she was above us, (she is quite a dominant bitch). He told/showed us techniques of how to show our leadership. e.g only giving her affection even eye contact on our terms not when she is demanding/seeking it (which she does alot), walk her twice a day, feed her after ourselves, everybody ignores her for 5-10 mins when we first enter the house and only praise when she is calm, relaxed. We have been keeping to all this advise, but the "leaving" behaviour hasnt seemed to improve at all. Does anyone have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yes. Get a qualified veterinary behaviourist to consult on the issue. Behavioural problems can not always be solved with training. Sometimes you need more than that. It does sound like separation anxiety but that's not always as simple as adjusting a dog's position in the back order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 the dog needs to be on a leash and crate trained. She's too 'involved' and the pattern of coming/going is causing her anxiety. Dont let the dog off leash around people you have to show her how to behave around them and what is expected. If she cannot behave lock her out of the area where the visitors are until she settles then bring her in on leash again. I agree with what your behaviorist said about her behavior but I think the method just didnt work and you need to try something else. feeding her after everyone doesnt work IF she doesnt understand her place in the household. Lack of leadership can be a stress factor to a dog hence causing manic behaviors in the animal. Feed her but make her WORK for it. DO a trick, wait properly and release for the food. make her work for everything she wants, dont free praise and dont let the dog train you. Commonly a dog will come and perform (eg sit) for the owner and owner immediately praises or treats - who trained who here? Dog trained owner to hand out the love on the DOGS command! Tricky aren't they! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louloud Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 She is crate trained she sleeps happily in a crate by herself at night, making no noise till the morning. We have been keeping her on a leash 24/7 in the house (makes it easier when people want to leave, besides having to hear the insane barking). We are using the bathroom as the time out area and will only let her out once she is quiet if she performs again she goes back in (this was suggested as well by the behaviourist). We were making her sit and wait for her food and using a release word 'ok' at meal times, but the behaviourist suggest we 'gesture eat' for example pretend to eat some of her food then put the bowl down and walk away with no sit and stay? Most of your advise sounds similar as to what the behaviourist said i guess i just have to make sure every family member is sticking to these methods 100% and hope to see some improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Have you tried putting her into a drop when people are leaving and/or when she is carrying on? IE Control her activity at the same time training her to a new one. When she is barking/carrying on as visitors leave, what's her body language indicating? Try using "TOT" program for meal times. It can prove to be a very powerful training and leadership technique. ETA: And I agree with Cosmolo (below). It really is best if you follow through with your trainer/behaviourist to advise (a) in what areas the techniques are working and/or not working and (b) to see if further advice may be given on those areas that need more help. Regular and frequent contact with your trainer/behaviourist informing them of progress/changes helps with them being able to 'tweak' programs they've set to suit what is occurring/changing. Edited July 22, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 How long ago did you see the behaviourist? Have you contacted them since to ask if there are other things you can add to assist you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louloud Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 She usually is very good at commands sit, drop, stay etc even without treats but there is no way a could get her in a drop postion when she thinks someone is leaving. Her body language she is showing is a very stressed,anxious dog barking insanely, wide eyed, increased resperation so this stress rubs off on to me. Its was over a month ago we saw the behaviourist he just said continue with the recommendations he had made, it would take time. He did admit he has never seen a behaviour problem like this before though, but would research into it...so that kind of what im doing too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) What's the first 'trigger' that sends her 'off' ? Visitors walking towards the front door? Or does she become aroused at earlier triggers such as visitors rising from their chairs and carrying that body language/making those movements that suggests they are going to leave? Have you tried walking her outside on lead before your visitors leave? Of course this would not be the be all and end all as it doesn't yet address the matter of you leaving the house, but it would be interesting to know whether her behaviour diminishes when this is done. Edited July 22, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Did you see a qualified behaviourist? Interested in the answers to Erny's questions as well- how long does the dog take to settle once the person leaves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Her body language she is showing is a very stressed,anxious dog barking insanely, wide eyed, increased resperation so this stress rubs off on to me. And there's a good chance that you begin to become stressed knowing that visitors (or yourself) are about to leave and the anticipation of your dog's behaviour. And then that rubs off on to her. Edited July 22, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louloud Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 She triggers earlier with visitors than family members she will start barking, guarding etc as soon as they get up and move in the direction of the door, it's worse if they're carrying a bag or rattling keys. She will let me get to the front door but as soon as a touch the door handle she will go crazy. I havent tried walking her outside first on the lead so will try it next time someone is leaving. Yes it was a qualified behaviourist and have heard good things about him from other people. With settling down it prob takes at least one minute for her to stop barkning, trying to follow and I let her lead go once she is settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) There are numerous things that I could think of you trying but without seeing and knowing the dog I don't know if they'll prove to be a futile or even worthwhile exercise to do. It does sound like a control issue and your leadership work that you have put into place can do nothing but help you. The other things I have in mind relate to devaluing exercises. In other words, devalue the signals she is triggering off - have them not mean what she thinks they mean. What is she like, though, generally speaking? Is she always the hyper vigilant type? What is her general health like? What diet is she on? Coat condition? Weight (skinny/lean or fat)? Edited July 22, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 What is her reaction if you remain seated and pick up a hand bag or jingle keys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 hasnt seen that reaction? wow ... its pretty common! I think you need some more help with the 'door' issue, sounds like she just needs to be settled before any training will start in her brain. Its very hard to get through to a hyperactive dog! give them a call back for another session and get them to settle her FOR YOU at the door. See what they do (if they can) In the mean time before someone leaves put her away and ignore her stressful behavior, even better if she cannot see the door. She will just get progressively worst if allowed to repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Good post nekhbet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louloud Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 I wouldnt be surprise if the stress I feel before someone leaves rubs off onto her. Generally speaking she is a hyper intense dog alway has been, likes to get into everything would go on a walk for hours and hours if she could (she does get walked every day for at least 20-30 min sometimes twice) she is a pomeranian so should be adequate. She is very healthy (im a vet nurse so make sure of this) she was on Royal Canin mini adult but then decided she was sick of it and refused it so is now on eukanuba small breed Coat condition is good (but doesn't like to be brushed either) I cope. she is lean to slightly chubby which I am monitoring. She is from a litter of only 2 pups the other was half her size, so she was always bossing it around. Purchased from a NZKC breeder at 9 weeks of age, viewed parents both lovely dogs. Has been to pup school and basic obeidence which she is fine at (beautifully behaved outside the house on walks, at park, good with other dogs etc. I will def try to get him to come back, the reason i chose him as he gives a lifetime guarantee. he recommended keeping her on the lead and her watching us leave as to see she cant control us. or do you think putting her away is better? and letting her out when she is quiet and settled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I will def try to get him to come back, the reason i chose him as he gives a lifetime guarantee. he recommended keeping her on the lead and her watching us leave as to see she cant control us. or do you think putting her away is better? and letting her out when she is quiet and settled? We don't know your dog but I agree that getting the trainer back and asking him to demonstrate what to do so you can see how the behaviour will improve would be an advantage. I'm not sure how you can keep her on lead and you leave at the same time. I'm puzzled by that, but regardless, I think your trainer/behaviourist needs to come back to help you. He has the advantage the rest of us don't in that he has met your dog. And you chose him for the lifetime guarantee he offers, so I'd utilise that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louloud Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 I've already emailed him just waiting for a reply..sorry to confuse you I meant when other family members or vistiors leave we hold the lead and she watches them go out the door. When everyone goes out she is confined to the downstairs area and will follow me if I have a bone, treat, filled kong in my hand while still barking and carrying on into the area i throw the object and she runs in and then I close the door and then takes less than 5 in to settle down once we have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 she was on Royal Canin mini adult but then decided she was sick of it and refused it so is now on eukanuba small breedCoat condition is good (but doesn't like to be brushed either) I cope. ahhaaaa who's the boss in the family Methinks you need to stop thinking in 'dog likes this, dog doesnt like that' and simply 'you do what I say, how I say, when I say and if you dont like it tough titties' She sounds like she's simply dominating the situation and not letting people or you leave - everything on her terms. What is commonly seen as separation anxiety is sometimes a dog telling the owner off for leaving then causing mayhem in the mean time because the owners didnt listen to them. They can be sneaky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louloud Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 I offered her Royal Canin for breakfast and dinner (lifting it up after 20mins if she didnt eat it) for nearly a week- she hardly touched it and lost a fair bit of weight. so from a health perspective I wasnt going to persevere much longer than that. and brushing she doesnt enjoy it (whinges a bit) but she still gets brushed whether she likes it or not. I agree she likes to try and control the situation though. Thats why she's in for tough love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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