Samoyed

[pip1981]

Ok, for starters, what on earth were you doing still awake at 2.23am!!! :D You're one crazy chicken! Lol

You may be new to it all Bindii, but I think what you said made perfect sense.

And i must add... I would have never though of Dakota as having a soft or skittish temperament... She is probably the most out going and friendly doggy at the Kepala meet ups! What are you talking about

Lol, you're always afraid I'm putting my poor girl down, I know she's the best dog in the world silly!

I guess, as Icemist hinted at, we all have different interpretations of skittish/soft. Well, for me, they can mean different things to different dogs I guess.

With Dakota, I would never refer to her as being afraid or wary of any living creature, especially humans and dogs, however she has always been nervy with sudden movement and noise when everything is otherwise peaceful. To provide some examples.. At home, she might be asleep on the floor, near one of us, we might jump up suddenly, or even just move (unexpectedly to her), and she will literally jump to stand. Or, being that we live in a new estate, there is often building noises, banging, nail guns, etc. Unless it has been going on for a while, she is very jumpy at the sounds. If the OH, throws something across the room, for eg. the remote, or a cushion, she cowers, and we HAVE NEVER thrown anything at her. And, in a recent development (since NYE fire crackers at a caravan park), she has become terrified of all loud cracking sounds, literally almost losing control of her back legs and crying, trying to hide under chairs, etc.

In an exciting noisy environment, like Kepala, these characteristics don't show up. Except maybe in her yelping when a dog surprises her in play (which we like to call 'the drama queen').

Anyway, we love her all the same, but I think typically, a Sammie should be a little more laid back than Dakota...lol.

See you soon YAY!!!!

[Bindii]

An interesting look at the study of temperament in dogs:

From about 3 minutes in to this video, and continues in the following video too

"THE SECRET LIFE OF THE DOG (4/6)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIoKQ6KUPck...feature=related

"THE SECRET LIFE OF THE DOG (5/6)"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN7uj0baDos...feature=related

The entire program is absoloutely fascinating, but these two clips refer to what we're discussing here regarding temperament and it's genetic nature.

[Icemist]

I wrote this to intend discussion and I was hoping a few more people might have got involved, whether they have different points of views or not.

We are all here to learn and express opinions. And I welcome all. What I offer is experience.

I have had soft dogs, I have had strong dogs. I have seen both sides and I have breed with both sides, and it is not as simple as tossing a dog out or dismissing a dog because it is soft or has other issues. There are many factors to be looked at.

No dog is perfect. Why use it when the dog is not perfect……simple, because the breed will die out. That’s why choices are made by breeders in what they are thinking will benefit the breed, or themselves. There’s not a great lot of decent breeding dogs in this country. We do not have the expanded lines as in Europe and the US. (I’ll get to my point is a sec)

I understand what the standard that was written all those years ago, and agree with it. But also to the point, the breed has changed and will continue to change. For the Good or the bad? We will all have to wait and see.

Bindii makes some very good points and it is good that she has gone onto the next step with this and yes she is correct when saying the standard says Sammie’s should display affection to all mankind, and she makes a very good argument. But can’t a softer dog display affection and cuddle up to their owners on a cold winters night…why can’t it? Isn’t this affection to mankind?

I am not here to argue against the standard temperament of this breed, but here a question a quote and why I will argue against it.

And that quote was not touching a softer dog, because of parents.

There is talk of the standard, and what the standard say. Lets put in to practice as well, as well as questions to ponder.

Why would you not purchase a puppy that has soft parents or even a soft dog, over a dog that could have cat feet, short legs, short tail, over coated?

A dog with these faults or some of these faults would die in it natural habitat, while a softer dog would have more chance of survival.

Why are these allowed here, when they would surely die? The show ring? Because someone said?

Why is softness more important than other faults, because of the show ring?

Why aren’t the above faults dealt with equally or harsher that a softer dog?

Because people are more aware than a dog that shy over a dog that has some major faults and CAN or WILL defiantly pass these faults on.

As I said before, I’m not here to argue against temperament, but I’m here to open people’s eyes a little more, especially from a breeding point of view.

To see more of the picture.

Temperament in this breed is very important. You don’t want them ‘soft’ but you don’t want them aggressive.

Advice IMO, just like a dog with a 20 score of HD, don’t dismiss it until you have all the facts, also see what is out there.

As for the definition of soft, I can see where you are coming from. Basically Backing away, nervousness or unsure around people.

(Like humans, there are also different types of nervousness as well)

But there are many reasons to why a dog may seem ‘soft’.

Hormones

Growing pains

Adolescence

Seasons

Mistreatment, beaten etc

Fire works etc

There just a couple from the top of my head.

My eyes are not shut on this not being hereditary, but I do not believe that softness, nor is aggressiveness, even thou I sadly say I have seen a Samoyed kennel in Australia that contradicts my belief on this matter (on the aggressive side), is hereditary.

This is why I want to start this conversation, and this quote made me want to get the following words out, especially to any potential breeders of any breed.

My advice to any potential breeder:

As a breeder, to any potential breeder of any breed, don’t close your eyes/mind, KEEP IT OPEN, don’t shut out and close the door and dismiss a dog because it has an issue, unless you are 100% sure of the issue is and what has caused it, especially if you have only seen the dog once or twice.

Other than things like PRA, HD (Physical defects), you should really look hard and strong at, but other things like mental problems of which you will have no real idea what is behind it, maybe its just speculation, hear rumours, you should find out what the underlying problem is and if it is a short term thing or whether it is so called ’heredity’.

Look at what the dog/s have produced in the past.

Look at what is behind the dog, parents, grand parents etc, not just at the dog itself. You will always have a throw back somewhere down the track.

Shutting the door on a dog because it is soft may be the worst decision of your breeding career. Similar in aspects to “Kennel Blindness’.

I made a decision years ago not to use an aggressive Samoyed that I really loved…strange I said that. The dog was aggressive but never throw aggressive off spring, or grand children, or great grand children.

I don’t say that I regret it, but I wish I could go back in time to reconsider my options.

Keeping the mind open, of which I did not have fully open back then.

The same with softness. Environmental factors, how the dog is brought up and other factors relating to softness, getting a fright at a young tender age, as a baby, or going throw the adolescence ten ager years. These early years can change a dog dramatically, even too much being wrapped up too much in cotton wool.

Experience has shown me the strongest of temperaments in any dog, especially in bitches can crumble at a given moment...for various reasons (as stated above, most relevant is hormones and seasons)......and shortly after that dog is back to its normal strongest self.

Strange.

But an example is Hormonal imbalances, eg bitches in season, growing pains etc.

The best example is with my old bitch Mishka..

Aust Grand Champion Mezen The Ice Maiden CDX ET.

Strong in confirmation, good temperament, obedient but strong in mind, and built for what she’s meant to do...as all the 3 different titles suggest these, especially the obedience and endurance titles. Point score winner in both show and obedience.

Mishka was an outstanding trialling dog, winning the obedience ring in both Novice and Open levels. She was one of the top guns of her time.

Mishka had just come in 4th place at the State Obedience titles and had won other trials coming up to a trial in Wagga.

We entered the ring and did the heal work etc scoring 29 out of 30. Went to do the Stand for Exam, she backed off from the judge. What the hell!

The judge tried it again. She backed off again...I couldn't believe it.

Four weeks later she was in season. But I didn't put my finger on it straight away.

The same thing happened just before her next season, but in a show ring. I figured it out. Hormones, being in season.

She produced Australia’s greatest ever Samoyed Obedience Champion, her off spring obtained countless tiles, both show, endurance and obedience, grand children and great GC, and great, great GC.

If someone had seen her backing off during those times before she came into season, the suggestion would have been to dismiss buying a from her…...without really knowing her, or what was happening at that particular time!

Also, separation from the pack can be devastating for a puppy, again experience has shown me this.

You also say that one bad experience will or should affect a dog…….what about in humans. You here it all the time, one bad experience has changed that person, why can’t this happen to dogs? Because there not smart, they don’t think like us, they are thicker, they are so called thicker skinned as some people would put it.

Just because they have four legs, does not mean a brain in a four legged creature can tolerate a bad experience and put in into perspective and get over something like a human, when humans can’t do those themselves.

My parent’s first dog that they purchased at 18 months, was hung, left to die by their former owners. Chain around the neck hanging from the clothes line. His partner dog (a bitch) was already dead by the time the breeders got their. This dog had been beaten, starved and beaten.

Would you not trust people if you had been mistreated or left to die. The same for animals, but this does not mean its going to be passed on. Circumstances.

Aggressive nor softness was not breed in to any offspring. And if there was any dog that had the right to do it, it was this one.

I also know of a dog here in NSW that has strong parents, strong, GP, GGP etc, and they have produced a really soft dog.

Just because the parents are soft, does not mean you will have soft dogs, and visa versa.

As for dogs ending up in the pound, it is more likely to be an over active dog than a quietter one.

My point is, yes temperament is an important factor in this breed, but there are many other factors as well. Don’t dismiss a dog without proper research.

Walk away, learn, but open your mind up, keep it open, don’t be kennel blind, (I’m starting to sound like a pot head hippy) ;) , especially to dog breeding, the mistakes have all been made before.

I may have gone a little of track here :D , but

There’s a little saying ‘NEVER SAY NEVER’.

[Bindii]

I'm really quickly replying here from work but just want to say that my original comment about temperament was in referrence to perfect hips. I never implied that temperament was everything and the only thing that matters... The original point I intended making was that there is no 'one' thing that is the most important - the point I was making was that a puppy should not just be bought because the parents have good hips. The original conversation began with a puppy buyer and for them temperament should be very important, they probably wouldn't really give a stuff about cat feet anyway, nor know what that means! (not that I think it's ok, but for a pet it makes no difference)

I would chose a dog with higher hips over one with an unsound temperament (and the degree of 'unsoundness' would be unique to each and everyone of us) to be used for breeding. You think that would be s bad decision in my breeding, and I think cutting out a dog with a hipscore of 20 for the reason of the hipscore *only* is a bad decision.. But you have more experience, so I'm understanding that I may be incorrect on this opinion.

All that you said about being open minded and researching a dog is true- for all factors of what makes up a Samoyed... Temperament, structure, lines, hips etc etc etc. Just like how a photo can cover flaws or make a fabulous dog look awful, or a dog can be run at an angle to cover it's weakness or run too fast and make it look incorrect...

The point you made about affection toward mankind completely ignored the emphasis I put on the fact that it says "all" mankind in the standard and the ideals I have of a Samoyed.

What prompted the line about being kennel blind?

Edited April 19, 2010 by Bindii

[Icemist]

I'm really quickly replying here from work but just want to say that my original comment about temperament was in referrence to perfect hips. I never implied that temperament was everything and the only thing that matters... The original point I intended making was that there is no 'one' thing that is the most important - the point I was making was that a puppy should not just be bought because the parents have good hips. The original conversation began with a puppy buyer and for them temperament should be very important, they probably wouldn't really give a stuff about cat feet anyway, nor know what that means! (not that I think it's ok, but for a pet it makes no difference)

No, you didn't imply that temperament was everything, but you did state that a "huge thing would be temprement" refering to soft dogs.

I never implied that you thought this is the only thing that matters, I am trying to point out with things whether temperament, size, feet, what ever, when breeding don't close your eyes to certain dogs because of this and that.

Also you have said that a puppy buyer wouldnt give a stuff about cats feet, thats right, they would be more concerned that the puppy in good health, and a baby puppy does not back off from people (or at least I have never seen or heard of one doning that), so how does a person know that the puppy has a soft temperament when a baby puppy? A new puppy in a new enviroment would be at first a little wary, sniffing around etc before it gets used to a new home. Once that puppy settles into that family envirorment, and would not back away from family member unless misstreated, or something severly wrong mentaly.

More of a problem than being soft in a family envoroment would be the puppy being agresive.

I would chose a dog with higher hips over one with an unsound temperament (and the degree of 'unsoundness' would be unique to each and everyone of us) to be used for breeding. You think that would be s bad decision in my breeding, and I think cutting out a dog with a hipscore of 20 for the reason of the hipscore *only* is a bad decision.. But you have more experience, so I'm understanding that I may be incorrect on this opinion.

Everyone has thier own opinion on what to breed, thats what I said earlier in the piece, 2nd line actually.

Degree of soundness of temperament and hips, feet etc will be different on every dog. Its a juggling act.

What you use decide to breed from and with is your choice, no one can force you to choose a dog or a bitch.

The point you made about affection toward mankind completely ignored the emphasis I put on the fact that it says "all" mankind in the standard and the ideals I have of a Samoyed.

No one can change your ideals of a Samoyed, let alone me. We all have have them.

All mankind. I get the idea, but I maybe wrong, that it seems like your definition of affection is when a dog freely comes up and is willing to be patted, played with etc, not being shy or nervous, to have it tummy rubbed etc.

And that is good if that if your ideal. keep it that way.

A Fault of the breed is Severe unprovoked aggressiveness.

It also say that displaying affection towards all mankind. But is shyness or being nervous a fault, as long as they are not agreesive. You will find with most, if not all shy Sammies, once you sit down they will come round.

Does affection have to be instant. Could it take a bit tof time for the dog to know you, as with humans, or many other animals.

But not all afection is showed in the same way.

Affection is displayed in different ways, Every dog is diferent. Some are independent and prefer to run around and come sometimes for a pat. Others just can't keep away from human activity.

Just because a dog shys away, does not mean it is not affectionate. It means that there could be a an issue with the dog not trusting in a person. Not every Samoyed has to lick the hand of every person. As long as the dog does not show aggression.

All the Sammies I know that are shy or nervous, and may back off, are still willing to be patted and played with once you sit down with them. Once sitting down with them, they come to.

There is a big difference between being shy and nervous to not being affectionate.

If there was no affection there to any mankind, let alone all, wouldnt the dog would be aggressive.

Have you seen many agressive Sammies? Bite the head off a Chihuahua, I knew a Sammy that did this. he wasnt too affectionate.

Even the Sammies that "All mankind" bashes, kicks, beats, starves, cage, skins, and eats!

Each dog has a threshold, just the same as human. Do these Sammies have the right not to love "all" of mankind. Just some.

Most Sammies will still be affectionate even after being beaten to a pulp, as with my parents boy, he was shy but still affectionate and let young children play with him, pull his tail, ears etc. I know, I pulled his ears and tail.

What prompted the line about being kennel blind?

Due to talking about breeding. It is a recoginsed term. I am presuming you have heard of it, and maybe thought I was suggesting it at yourself, which is not the case.

It was a problem in previous times.

It is something that is slowly disolving from this breed.

Kennel blindness is a mistake that many breeders, not just Sammies went through a while ago.

Breeders would only use dogs and purchase dogs within their own little patch.

Mostly due to the competetion factor. many did not want to use a dog because such and such had it. This did not benefit the breed.

Of recent times, many have realised that they must suck up the pride and move out of their patch to use other lines. it also brings more harmony.

Its part of being open minded. Leaving options open.

[Bindii]

This is a very interesting discussion and I am thoroughly enjoying it, I would love some input from others

Also you have said that a puppy buyer wouldnt give a stuff about cats feet, thats right, they would be more concerned that the puppy in good health, and a baby puppy does not back off from people (or at least I have never seen or heard of one doning that), so how does a person know that the puppy has a soft temperament when a baby puppy? A new puppy in a new enviroment would be at first a little wary, sniffing around etc before it gets used to a new home. Once that puppy settles into that family envirorment, and would not back away from family member unless misstreated, or something severly wrong mentaly.

More of a problem than being soft in a family envoroment would be the puppy being agresive.

In answer to bolded question above - the puppies parents. And if you're really keen or even interested in using the pup for breeding, the dogs behind that pup, the litter mates, previous pups that those parents have sired. Of course you can never be certain how a dog will grow up to be, but you can lessen the chances just like with everything in breeding dogs.

What you use decide to breed from and with is your choice, no one can force you to choose a dog or a bitch.

Precisely. But you did say that it would be the "worst decision of [my] breeding career", so people can certainly try to force then, can't they

All mankind. I get the idea, but I maybe wrong, that it seems like your definition of affection is when a dog freely comes up and is willing to be patted, played with etc, not being shy or nervous, to have it tummy rubbed etc.

And that is good if that if your ideal. keep it that way.

A Fault of the breed is Severe unprovoked aggressiveness.

It also say that displaying affection towards all mankind. But is shyness or being nervous a fault, as long as they are not agreesive. You will find with most, if not all shy Sammies, once you sit down they will come round.

Does affection have to be instant. Could it take a bit tof time for the dog to know you, as with humans, or many other animals.

But not all afection is showed in the same way.

Affection is displayed in different ways, Every dog is diferent. Some are independent and prefer to run around and come sometimes for a pat. Others just can't keep away from human activity.

Just because a dog shys away, does not mean it is not affectionate. It means that there could be a an issue with the dog not trusting in a person. Not every Samoyed has to lick the hand of every person. As long as the dog does not show aggression.

All the Sammies I know that are shy or nervous, and may back off, are still willing to be patted and played with once you sit down with them. Once sitting down with them, they come to.

There is a big difference between being shy and nervous to not being affectionate.

If there was no affection there to any mankind, let alone all, wouldnt the dog would be aggressive.

Have you seen many agressive Sammies? Bite the head off a Chihuahua, I knew a Sammy that did this. he wasnt too affectionate.

And this is interpretation of the standard. You read affection to all mankind as simply being "not showing aggression" to all mankind. And i read affection to all mankind as, well, affection to all mankind (not just not interacting, but literally, as it states, showing affection, so happy, smiling, greeting etc)

I feel, that if the standard was really suggesting that a Samoyed can be wary or stand-offish that it would state something like what is in the Japanese Spitz standard: "Affectionate, companionable. Slightly chary at first meeting with strangers."

But the Samoyed standard doesn't.. It says "Affection to all mankind"

and then, as you've said, "severe unprovoked aggression" is a fault. It doesn't say anything 'in between' like the JS standard does. So that is how I read it. And that is interpretation

Even the Sammies that "All mankind" bashes, kicks, beats, starves, cage, skins, and eats!

Each dog has a threshold, just the same as human. Do these Sammies have the right not to love "all" of mankind. Just some.

In my original essay post on this topic i stated that temperament is mostly hereditary, as in, the original slate you have to work with is there. My dog may have grown up to be different in someone else's hands, if he were constantly bashed, hit, starved, or caged, of course there is fair reason for his temperament to then seem unsound.. he would be fearful, and possibly even aggressive!

If i went to a breeders property and was greeted by 6 happy go lucky fun bouncing Samoyeds and then there was a wary, shy, stand-off ish type hanging at the back, I would be questioning why the dog was like that. One would assume all of the dogs would have been brought up in the same consistent environment.. what causes this one shy one? If the breeder had no good answer or excuse then one could mostly assume that it was just a genetic flaw, right?

I honestly think that if breeding is poor enough, shyness/nervousness and aggression come hand in hand. The most nervous dogs that enter the clinic are breeds such as Rottweilers and German Shepherds. Make of that what you will. (Generally Samoyeds are not nervous, but i wouldn't want to think that if breeders kept breeding from shy and nervous dogs and bitches that it would result in aggression coming out too)

Given that I am completely new to this, and I don't have a lot to work with as a new comer, if my bitch (who doesn't exist at the moment and possibly hasn't even been thought about!) grows up to be nervous or shy (as in - by the time she is 12 months, obviously there are stages of development etc) then I will not be using her as my foundation bitch.. I would not want to start with that. Similarly, if her hips were shocking, or there were any other major faults! Regardless of the fact that she wasn't 'aggressive' i wouldn't want to start with a soft bitch. Is that honestly the worst decision I could make, the very first one that i make in my breeding career? Perhaps I'm not off to a good start!

Edited April 19, 2010 by Bindii

[Icemist]

QUOTE (Icemist @ 19th Apr 2010 - 04:10 PM)

Also you have said that a puppy buyer wouldnt give a stuff about cats feet, thats right, they would be more concerned that the puppy in good health, and a baby puppy does not back off from people (or at least I have never seen or heard of one doning that), so how does a person know that the puppy has a soft temperament when a baby puppy? A new puppy in a new enviroment would be at first a little wary, sniffing around etc before it gets used to a new home. Once that puppy settles into that family envirorment, and would not back away from family member unless misstreated, or something severly wrong mentaly.

More of a problem than being soft in a family envoroment would be the puppy being agresive.

In answer to bolded question above - the puppies parents . And if you're really keen or even interested in using the pup for breeding, the dogs behind that pup, the litter mates, previous pups that those parents have sired.

In answer to the bold - we will just keep going in circles.

Precisely. But you did say that it would be the "worst decision of [my] breeding career", so people can certainly try to force then, can't they

You have lost me here

All mankind. I get the idea, but I maybe wrong, But the Samoyed standard doesn't.. It says "Affection to all mankind"

and then, as you've said, "severe unprovoked aggression" is a fault. It doesn't say anything 'in between' like the JS standard does. So that is how I read it. And that is interpretation

So you are saying that every Samoyeds should love every human being on the planet? by being affectionate to all mankind.

You can take it literally if you want, by saying All Mankind, and that is the way you interpret it.

I don't intrepret that way because it is unrealistic in the real world.

The same goes for this part of the standard "On account of the depth of chest required the legs should be moderately long, a very short-legged dog is to be deprecated. Hindquarters should be particularly well developed, stifles well angulated, and any suggestion of unsound stifles or cowhocks severely penalised."

How many dogs do you see with short legs, stiffles not angulated and cowhocked.

Be a bit realistic please.

In my original essay post on this topic i stated that temperament is mostly hereditary

And as I said, it is your opinion, I do not have to agree with it, nor does anyone else have to agree with either of us.

Given that I am completely new to this

if my bitch (who doesn't exist at the moment and possible hasn't even been thought about!) grows up to be nervous or shy (as in - by the time she is 12 months, obviously there are stages of development etc) then I will not be using her as my foundation bitch.. I would not want to start with that. Similarly, if her hips were shocking, or there were any other major faults! Regardless of the fact that she wasn't 'aggressive' i wouldn't want to start with a soft bitch. Is that honestly the worst decision I could make, the very first one that i make in my breeding career? Perhaps I'm not off to a good start!

And as I said before, What you use decide to breed from and with is your choice, no one can force you to choose a dog or a bitch.

Yes, this is interesting, but I don't think anyone is going to add much as we becoming like two bulls bashing their heads together to be dominate , and Im sure everyone is getting sick of it.

Everyone has an opinion, they will differ from both of us.

I think in this case, we can agree to disagree!

But if anyone else wants a say, feel free.

[Bindii]

In response to what you said about short legs etc, can I just remind you that this discussion began with a pet buyer. A pet purchaser doesn't need length of leg. As far as pets are concerned, temperament really is everything (bar a crippled dog)

A shy dog might do fine with a bit of work with an experienced owner, but someone who wants the happy go lucky Samoyed they saw at the park or in the ring should be able to have that without much work, and generally this is the way Samoyeds are, so why use one that isn't that way when you have so many to chose from that are happy and confident?

Straight stifles will never kill anyone in a state of extreme fear, and the problems associated with cat feet will never result in a dog being rehomed multiple times or being put to sleep.

Apart from the standard, the 'real world' also calls for sound temperament.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Bindii

[Icemist]

This is actually getting quite silly and boring. It is quite childish.

In response to what you said about short legs etc, can I just remind you that this discussion began with a pet buyer. A pet purchaser doesn't need length of leg. As far as pets are concerned, temperament really is everything (bar a crippled dog)

Yes, and I would think anyone would prefer a dog that is softer than an agreesive Samoyeds. Whether a pet home or a breeder.

Who her would love an agreesive Samoyed. Or would prefer a softer one if they had the two options.

A shy dog might do fine with a bit of work with an experienced owner, but someone who wants the happy go lucky Samoyed they saw at the park or in the ring should be able to have that without much work, and generally this is the way Samoyeds are, so why use one that isn't that way when you have so many to chose from that are happy and confident?

I though we were taliking about puppies. But everyone wants a happy dog.

When you pick a puppy up at 8 weeks, even a experienced breeder can not gaurantee you how they will turn out, both physically and mentally. They have an idea, but can't gaurantee it.

At 8 weeks there a ball full of playfull fluff.

But maybe you can be the first offer a gaurentee that when the puppies that you breed will continue to smile at all times during their life, when you have your first litter.

Straight stiffles will never kill anyone in a state of extreme fear, and the problems associated with cat feet will never result in a dog being rehomed multiple times or being put to sleep.

Sorry, you've lost me again

Apart from the standard, the 'real world' also calls for sound temperament.

Yes, there are not many with a temperant that unsound that they are aggressive.

Bindii, one last question, do you enjoy driving around round abouts?

Cause thats what we both are doing.

[Bindii]

Bah! you're no fun

[Snerzok]

I must just also add that I really am new to all of this, my opinions are those only from what I have learnt in the last year of being involved with this breed, and also from that of my studies that i am completing through work

How can you go wrong with me as your mentor?

[Bindii]

How can you go wrong with me as your mentor? :p

Yes John, all of your wise words ringside at countless shows has been very very helpful.

/sarcasm.

[Bjelkier]

I must just also add that I really am new to all of this, my opinions are those only from what I have learnt in the last year of being involved with this breed, and also from that of my studies that i am completing through work

How can you go wrong with me as your mentor? :D

Hey we have another one, welcome Snerzok :D

[SnoPaws]

Oh it's another one of those Collingwood supporters ;)

[Kelza]

Wow haven't been on here for a little over a week been very busy, and so much has happened - Just caught up on the 3 pages, normally this forum can go for weeks without anything being posted... I have only have a little bit of time (still at work), so I will reply regarding "Temperament" and come back later to reply about hips... I think they are two separate topics but both very valid in our beautiful breed…

Temperament

It has been documented that breeding from unstable temperaments has been the cause of the degeneration of many breed's general temperament such as Dobermans, Rottweilers, and so on.

- If your animal is untrustworthy of other people, overly aggressive to people, do not breed it.

- If it is too shy or always skittish don't breed it.

We only breed from happy, confident animals!

Our rule is never breed from an animal that has a temperament problem.

Let me explain what I mean by a temperament problem. I am not referring to instances where on occasion a dog balks at something unusual or has a moment where it is uncertain about a noise or situation.

Our breed should bounce back from those times and not then become a pattern of behaviour and on most occasions they do. But there are some dogs that don't...

I must say we have been very fortunate and have never owned a Samoyed with a soft or an aggressive temperament, all our dogs' current and in the past have always been very social happy dogs. Mosco "Aust Ch Airebis Russian Roulette" used to lay with my rabbits, but would happily venture to shows and was a great stud dog. Our current kids have different personalities; Shimmer has loads of energy, Inka loves cuddles and is calm and coco is a relaxed girl that is the boss of her kids (Inka and Shimmer) but is the first to lick you. Even Monet who isn't as outgoing as her brother Sonnet & sister Sylvi enjoyed cuddling up to a complete stranger (Pip1981) at the show on Sunday, and she hadn't been shown since she was 3 months - new environment and stange person, still showed a typical Samoyed temperment. Inka, Shimmer & Coco have all attended nursing homes, parks, dog shows and kindergartens. They are always very loving and friendly when meeting new people. Shimmer (even though she has lots of energy) is a sweetheart becoming really settled when around children and small animals. To me this is an ideal Samoyed, adapting too many environments and situations - loving all things great and small. Samoyeds have a smiling face and are known to be a trusting breed, it is important we protect this unique nature.

Shy or aggressive are an extremely concerning.

After being exposed to some dogs that have softer temperaments and a couple with aggressive temperaments, I have watched with interest as to the progeny that have come through these lines and are aware of a number over the years (and more in recent times), that portrayed extreme shyness and a couple that were aggressive. Therefore one would conclude that it may have been passed down through the lines (these dogs and bitches which will remain nameless) although I cannot say that all puppies were of this temperament, but it has been too many for peace of mind if you want to cement sound temperaments in your breeding program.

I agree that some of these things can be environmental or other factors such as seasons etc. But we have to be careful not to be quick to blame these factors and turn a blind eye to a problem that could cause the Samoyed as we know it according to the standard to start not portraying that beautiful attribute of being a lover of all mankind, this is why we love this breed so much isn't it?

Icemist: But can't a softer dog display affection and cuddle up to their owners on a cold winters night…why can't it? Isn't this affection to mankind?

Yes, it can but the Samoyed should be a Lover of all mankind and so snuggling up to the owners where it feels safe, is not displaying affection to all mankind. That would be true if the dog was willing to snuggle up to anybody.

Why would we want to perpetuate that incorrect quality in the lines? Granted we have a small gene pool so all things may crop up from time to time, but perpetuating a problem that may be detrimental to the reputation of the breed i believe is very wrong.

I ask what happens when the sensitive shy dog is pushed too out of its comfort zone?

We have to reflect on why the standard was written with the words "Lovers of all Mankind" and be strong when we have to reflect what we are breeding from and why. If we are just breeding with a selfish attitude, I have kept this bitch or dog until breeding age and need to breed from them no matter what the faults including temperament, then that is an I dont really care attitude (kennel blindness) ...she'll be right mate....or should we make a wise decision and say this bitch or dog is not of the required temperament or structure and decide not to breed form them. I guess it comes down to principles and if you're breeding for the right reasons.

Our decisions will reflect whether we truly care or not about the integrity of this breed and as a caretakers I want to do the best while I am here to pass onto the best possible for the next generation.

Until someone can conclusively prove incorrect temperaments are not genetic traits, we (Airebis Samoyeds) will continue to stick to our rule as breeders and only breed from sound, stable outgoing dogs.

I would rather be safe than sorry as temperament is a major factor in the beauty of our breed...what would be more dangerous an aggressive German shepherd or an aggressive Samoyed? I beleive for the unsuspecting person the Samoyed! As people are aware that they need to be aware of Shepherds and take caution but an aggressive Samoyed could be a very dangerous dog indeed for the unsuspecting, purely because our dogs are known as not being aggressive.

If a shy dog is pushed way beyond its comfort zone then this could easily happen. Let's be careful and be wise in our decisions about the temperaments of the dogs we are breeding from. There are a variety of tests to indicate a dog's temperament. Many of the working breeds have a temperament test (for example, the Doberman's test) for their breed. Therapy Dogs International and other Therapy Dog clubs have temperament testing that does try to separate out actual temperament from training. Obedience titles can be (but are not necessarily) an indication of good temperament.

As breeders we need to make sure we do our research.

Bindi: I would chose a dog with higher hips over one with an unsound temperament (and the degree of 'unsoundness' would be unique to each and everyone of us) to be used for breeding. You think that would be s bad decision in my breeding, and I think cutting out a dog with a hipscore of 20 for the reason of the hipscore *only* is a bad decision.. But you have more experience, so I'm understanding that I may be incorrect on this opinion.

I think it is important to have a balance, and it is important that we do the right thing for the breed and the breed in the future. I have plenty to say about hips too (but as I said at the start, I will respond in the next couple of days (life is too busy ). It is important we breed for the right reasons - the love of the breed and only to improve the breed. We are caretakers, and what we do now impacts the breed in the future.

When we plan a litter we take a long time in deciding who will sire the puppies, looking at lines, researching to see if any temperament problems have occurred, or health issues have popped up. We take into account hip scores (we won't use a dog that isn't scored), elbow scores, outline/construction, movement, soundness and anything else we know regarding their pedigrees. Every dog has a fault (often more than one in terms of 'show quality'), but it is important to understand what your bitch lacks to complement it with a dog who is strong in that area eg. a bitch with straighter stifles to a dog with lovely angles ensuring the dogs weakness isn't something your bitch lacks too. But this is in reference to 'show quality', because at the end of the day every breeder aims for show quality puppies in every litter. But, temperament is not something I would run the risk with, if a dog or bitch possess a very shy/soft or aggressive temperament I wouldn't use it, even if I have a dog or bitch with a very stable temperament.

Puppy Buyers, I suggest you meet the parents, take note of their behaviour and attitude to you! If you get the opportunity visit a show and see the parent long before you purchase a puppy. Yes we all want a puppy now… but do your research and ask plenty of questions.

Icemist: Why would you not purchase a puppy that has soft parents or even a soft dog, over a dog that could have cat feet, short legs, short tail, over coated?

A dog with these faults or some of these faults would die in it natural habitat, while a softer dog would have more chance of survival.

Why are these allowed here, when they would surely die? The show ring? Because someone said?

Why do puppy buyers by a Samoyed puppy? Because they were herding sled dogs in Siberia? Not likely

It is more likely it is because they are a beautiful breed in looks, trustworthy, lovers of children, smiling, happy, energetic dogs who love life and everyone around them.

I disagree a softer dog in their natural habitat would have a better chance of survival. They are pack dogs and natural hunters, the pack turn on shy and overly submissive members of the pack,. Agreed the faults you mentioned, cat feet, short legs, short tail, over coated are faults that will impact their survival, but would not impact them in this environment, however a dogs demeanor will impact the way they live their life here.

Cat feet, short legs, short tail, over coated are frowned upon in the show ring as the are not correct for the natural habitat, but so a pet owner they are a beautiful Samoyed and even if a Samoyed isn't what we call "show quality" it still can compete in herding, agility or obedience as long as they have the right attitude and respond to their owner. An incorrect temperament can cause many problems for a pet owner - shy or aggressive!

There would be a few things to consider here, I would be asking why the person felt compelled to breed with a dog that did not display the correct temperament.

I would recommend a puppy buyer look at the parents and then the puppies. I would want to see the puppy portraying the outgoing Samoyed temperament expected. In saying that some are more laid back but I would be concerned if at 8 weeks a puppy was skittish and ran away from people. Make sure if you do choose a quieter puppy, that it is well socialised very young.

In saying this fortunately I have not seen many dogs over the years displaying a shy skittish or aggressive temperament, but then again it just takes a few people ignoring these signs and breeding from these soft temperaments that could cause problems in the future. There appears to be more shy temperaments than previously, so it is something we need to take into account when breeding.

~ We want to keep the outgoing Samoyed temperament we know and love ~

Edited April 21, 2010 by Kelza

[ruski18]

hey guys, new to the forums.

i have a beautiful sammie who would leave me in a heart beat to chase rabbits and play with little kids. its my first dog and a great learning breed esp when the washing and drying and grooming starts for a show.

by far a highly recommended breed

[ruski18]

anyone can help with my 1 1/2 yr old female sammy.

since puppy i noticed her tail is rather slack and flags a fair bit, i take her to a chyro every few months and he said she had a few bones out in her back. it doesnt sit how it should but is alot better looking after the chyro.

recently i have taken her to a bowen and was told there is a bit of congestion in the back half on one side. a week later and her tail is being carried over for longer periods than ever and is flagging a fair bit less.

is their any other suggestions on what i can try to correct her tail.

thanks

[Kelza]

Hi Ruski18

Welcome to the forum, and yes Samoyeds are a fabulous breed. In regards to her tail, it could just be that she has a lower tail carriage making it impossible for her to place and hold it tight over her back.

great learning breed esp when the washing and drying and grooming starts for a show.

Do you exhibit in dog shows? If so take a standing (stack) shot of her and post it, that way we can give you a better idea if it is construction or an injury.

If it is an injury a good ciro and light massage will assist. don't allow her to play ruff with other dogs.

Looking forward to talk with you soon

Kelz

Edited April 28, 2010 by Kelza

[ruski18]

HEY GUYS,

since im after a blow dryer for my sammie, does anyone have any suggestions on which brand would be best. i was after one on a stand and that has a heat function.

thanks in advance

[Bjelkier]

I only just today picked up a Liberty Ultra Force (I think thats the brand name) dryer and can't wait to use it! (how sad am I )

But I have been told good things about this brand.

One thing I will say it be careful with heat.

The Sammie coat is delicate and continued exposure to heat can make the coat dry and brittle, it can even go yellow in some cases.

What you want is something very strong that will just blast the water right off the coat.

Oh and your Sammie is very cute.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Wolfsong