Samoyed

[toughgirl27]

Hi everyone,

I emailed Simba's breeder the other day and she told me that his father had a hip score of 20 and his mother 10.

She said the breed average is 17 so they were acceptable to breed from.

Is this correct? Or do you guy's think 10 and 20 hip scores are way too high?

XXToughgirlXxxx

[SnoPaws]

Hi everyone,

I emailed Simba's breeder the other day and she told me that his father had a hip score of 20 and his mother 10.

She said the breed average is 17 so they were acceptable to breed from.

Is this correct? Or do you guy's think 10 and 20 hip scores are way too high?

XXToughgirlXxxx

Hey TG

I would think 10 would be fine but 20 would be too high

Just my opinion

Who's dad if you don't mind me asking but maybe you should pm me

[Icemist]

Hi everyone,

I emailed Simba's breeder the other day and she told me that his father had a hip score of 20 and his mother 10.

She said the breed average is 17 so they were acceptable to breed from.

Is this correct? Or do you guy's think 10 and 20 hip scores are way too high?

XXToughgirlXxxx

A score of 10 to me is fine, but you would always hope for lower, but it would not stop me.

20 IMO I would have 2nd and 3rd thoughts about using a dog with that score. The dog would have to be super fantasic, before you even think about it, and there is no super fantasic dogs around.

As for a 4-1 score, you want each side as close as possible, but this score is still very acceptable due to its low score.

In some parts of Europe it is a Grade A2, other parts a B. This score any breeder would be happy with.

As for naming dogs and critasizing breeders and dogs on a public forum, I would advise be very careful, as it can open a can of worms.

[SnoPaws]

Hi everyone,

I emailed Simba's breeder the other day and she told me that his father had a hip score of 20 and his mother 10.

She said the breed average is 17 so they were acceptable to breed from.

Is this correct? Or do you guy's think 10 and 20 hip scores are way too high?

XXToughgirlXxxx

A score of 10 to me is fine, but you would always hope for lower, but it would not stop me.

20 IMO I would have 2nd and 3rd thoughts about using a dog with that score. The dog would have to be super fantasic, before you even think about it, and there is no super fantasic dogs around.

As for a 4-1 score, you want each side as close as possible, but this score is still very acceptable due to its low score.

In some parts of Europe it is a Grade A2, other parts a B. This score any breeder would be happy with.

As for naming dogs and critasizing breeders and dogs on a public forum, I would advise be very careful, as it can open a can of worms.

Now that I would agree with

What about a score of say 6:10 Rob what you go ahead or would that be pushing it

[Icemist]

As also discussed previously about hips, is you could still have a 0 and 0 score and still throw a large score. Unlikey, but can happen. Also there are enviromental factors at play as previously discussed, food exercise etc. All of this has parts to play.

Breeders also have to juggle the good with the bad when deciding on what to breed which dog with a bitch. Sometimes it turns out good and sometimes bad. Genetics comes into play.

Most breeders including the one that this particular dog is from will try to do the right thing with what is being breed, but sometimes things do not always work out the way they are planned. Very much like life itself.

Genetics is a funny thing, it can't be controlled, and even when you think you have got it picked and think you will know what you will get, it will bite you, and this goes for the same as this famous saying "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get"

[Icemist]

Hi everyone,

I emailed Simba's breeder the other day and she told me that his father had a hip score of 20 and his mother 10.

She said the breed average is 17 so they were acceptable to breed from.

Is this correct? Or do you guy's think 10 and 20 hip scores are way too high?

XXToughgirlXxxx

A score of 10 to me is fine, but you would always hope for lower, but it would not stop me.

20 IMO I would have 2nd and 3rd thoughts about using a dog with that score. The dog would have to be super fantasic, before you even think about it, and there is no super fantasic dogs around.

As for a 4-1 score, you want each side as close as possible, but this score is still very acceptable due to its low score.

In some parts of Europe it is a Grade A2, other parts a B. This score any breeder would be happy with.

As for naming dogs and critasizing breeders and dogs on a public forum, I would advise be very careful, as it can open a can of worms.

Now that I would agree with

What about a score of say 6:10 Rob what you go ahead or would that be pushing it

Total score of 16, this is still under the average. depends on the dog. What it is like, what the parents scores are, what the parents are like etc, the lines. A number of factors need to be considered. I would not say no, and I would not yes.

I have breed with a bitch with a score of 16 before. Yes. To a dog that was 12. Both still under the average. I got a bitch with a total score of 5. Greatly lower than both parents.

This same bitch went with top line food products, played but never exercised exessively, never walked up stairs etc.

Now the grand parents of this bitch were around 7 to 8. The great grand parents were around the same mark.

This is not a good example, but it shows that scores can bounce around from generation to generation pending on factors.

[SnoPaws]

Thanks Rob, very interesting lots of food for thought.

Makes me a bit more motivated to go and get Bunds hips scored just out of curiosity

[Icemist]

Being a breeder is not easy as people think. We just dont put two dogs together for the fun of it or just for the sake of it. Nor do we make money.

Pedigrees and dogs are researched, tough decissions are made.

Hip scores, blood tests etc are done, the bitches are carefully looked after, and treated like family, and a lot is done very scientificly. And so much can still go wrong.

It can be very agonising, heartbreaking and expensive, but very joyful and forfilling.

The litter I just had completely drainind me mently and pyshically and I only had one puppy in the litter. Mum and Bub came out fine. I spent a huge amount of money, approx 3 to 4 time what the pups value is. This was the known risk I took.

Many breeders do it for the love of the breed, and do their very best. Sometimes things do go pear shaped.

What enoys most breeders, of any breed, is someone that has really no idea what passion breeders have and what sacrifices are taken, and what goes into being able to present someone a healthy puppy at the age of 8 weeks.

It is from that time onwards, people that buy puppies need to stand up and take some responsibilty instead of pointing fingers. Yes the breeder has a responsibilty, BUT SO DOES THE NEW OWNER!

Good food and good love is what is needed, and for new owners to listen to advice and take head of what has been told to them by EXPERIENCED people.

Too many fingers are pionted without knowing the full facts, no responsibilty and common sense is taken, and too many dogs end up in the pound. And thats another thing breeder have to deal with.

And thats my rant for tonight

[Bjelkier]

Being a breeder is not easy as people think. We just dont put two dogs together for the fun of it or just for the sake of it. Nor do we make money.

Pedigrees and dogs are researched, tough decissions are made.

Hip scores, blood tests etc are done, the bitches are carefully looked after, and treated like family, and a lot is done very scientificly. And so much can still go wrong.

It can be very agonising, heartbreaking and expensive, but very joyful and forfilling.

The litter I just had completely drainind me mently and pyshically and I only had one puppy in the litter. Mum and Bub came out fine. I spent a huge amount of money, approx 3 to 4 time what the pups value is. This was the known risk I took.

Many breeders do it for the love of the breed, and do their very best. Sometimes things do go pear shaped.

What enoys most breeders, of any breed, is someone that has really no idea what passion breeders have and what sacrifices are taken, and what goes into being able to present someone a healthy puppy at the age of 8 weeks.

It is from that time onwards, people that buy puppies need to stand up and take some responsibilty instead of pointing fingers. Yes the breeder has a responsibilty, BUT SO DOES THE NEW OWNER!

Good food and good love is what is needed, and for new owners to listen to advice and take head of what has been told to them by EXPERIENCED people.

Too many fingers are pionted without knowing the full facts, no responsibilty and common sense is taken, and too many dogs end up in the pound. And thats another thing breeder have to deal with.

And thats my rant for tonight

And this is why I think I am cracked in the head for getting into breeding

[Bindii]

Interesting topic.

I've always been one for "zomg never breed anything over the breed average"

But I was speaking to a vet about it the other day, i was discussing hips and their impact on breeding and whether or not one should boycott a particular dog or line because of a slightly higher than average score and she got me thinking on a different level.

I thought the point was to lower the score and rid the Samoyed popularity of hip dysplasia. I thought the vet would agree... but the vet actually didn't feel that hip score of around 20 would be such a terrible thing as far as the Samoyed gene pool, and was far more concerned with hip scores ruling breeding, resulting in a smaller gene pool.

If this is a dogs only fault, if it is healthy in all other ways and dogs in it's pedigree have had no problems, then should it completely impact breeding? Afterall, a score of 20 may not ever effect a dog, or at least not until an old age. 20 is *just* over breed average - and given that most scores are well under 10 means that there are many that are *much* worse - they should not be bred from.

Of course it would be ideal not to breed anything above the breed average, but i now fear that if that was the only thing that people considered the gene pool would shrink considerably and it's already not a huge one. More things would crop up from close breeding and that could bring with it far worse things than a hip score of 20.

Remember that hip scores are just that - they are a score. If a dog is not crippled with a score of 20, what really is the problem? breeding to a dog with a lower score is smart, and i'm sure there were many other considerations to their pedigrees, personal health and future when a dog with a higher score was used. Breeding two very close lines is probably a far bigger risk because there may be underlying health issues that are recessive and will only crop up when two closely related dogs are mated.

If i were to import a dog and his hip score was 20, what is more important? The fresh lines my dog would bring, or the risk of passing on a slightly higher than average hip score?

[Icemist]

Interesting topic.

I've always been one for "zomg never breed anything over the breed average"

But I was speaking to a vet about it the other day, i was discussing hips and their impact on breeding and whether or not one should boycott a particular dog or line because of a slightly higher than average score and she got me thinking on a different level.

I thought the point was to lower the score and rid the Samoyed popularity of hip dysplasia. I thought the vet would agree... but the vet actually didn't feel that hip score of around 20 would be such a terrible thing as far as the Samoyed gene pool, and was far more concerned with hip scores ruling breeding, resulting in a smaller gene pool.

If this is a dogs only fault, if it is healthy in all other ways and dogs in it's pedigree have had no problems, then should it completely impact breeding? Afterall, a score of 20 may not ever effect a dog, or at least not until an old age. 20 is *just* over breed average - and given that most scores are well under 10 means that there are many that are *much* worse - they should not be bred from.

Of course it would be ideal not to breed anything above the breed average, but i now fear that if that was the only thing that people considered the gene pool would shrink considerably and it's already not a huge one. More things would crop up from close breeding and that could bring with it far worse things than a hip score of 20.

Remember that hip scores are just that - they are a score. If a dog is not crippled with a score of 20, what really is the problem? breeding to a dog with a lower score is smart, and i'm sure there were many other considerations to their pedigrees, personal health and future when a dog with a higher score was used. Breeding two very close lines is probably a far bigger risk because there may be underlying health issues that are recessive and will only crop up when two closely related dogs are mated.

If i were to import a dog and his hip score was 20, what is more important? The fresh lines my dog would bring, or the risk of passing on a slightly higher than average hip score?

Bindii is correct in what she says here, as with her vet, my vet who scores dogs for the Australian federal Police (AFP) and Customs, has the same view.

Thats why with a score of 20, just slightly above the average, Im not saying use him, but you would keep an open mind. You may not have a choice.

In Australia we have limited lines unlike Europe ans USA. On occassions, sometimes you may need to use a "slightly" higher score than the avaerage, and I quote "Slightly", to get what you need.

As for higher scores, I have seen a dog with a score around 60, live a perfectly good life with no signs of HD, jumping to get clothes off of washing lines etc. very healthy and full of life.

HD is regretfully is part of the breed that most breeders will acept to a certain degree, and it may never be fully bred out.

[Bindii]

The breeder just told me "good" for the sire when I talked to them over the phone. He is also imported from canada if that makes any difference. I'll ask for the scores when I go down to see the puppies.

Should I be looking for hip scores of 0? Or is this unrealistic.

I don't know that zero is unrealistic but it dosn't happen all that often.

At this stage I would be going for as low as possible.

As for the dog being imported it is possible the scoring system is different in Canada, but the breeder should be able to talk you through it.

EDT, having a brain dead moment :D

The buyer also needs to be aware of more things than just having as lower score as possible. A huge thing would be temperament, of course. If the dam or sire was skittish or soft, even if they had a score of 0:0 I wouldn't want one!

Not sure what good means but i'd double check if they've had them scored by via the AVA scheme to get a better comparison.

Breed average is currently 16.93 (according to when I had Fletcher done in February)

Here's my ball of fluff. Loki is his name. He turns 4 this year and is still incredibly puppyish.

He's Lucas's brother, isn't he?

Edited April 16, 2010 by Bindii

[pip1981]

Hi everyone, we're back from our camping trip, had a great time, I have posted lots of pics of my girl in the Photos section, you can see them here if you like.. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=193853

So, looks like I can make it to KCC Park tomorrow to see all the Sammies!!! Can anyone suggest what time would be suitable for a spectator to arrive, and would it be better if I left my super excitable girl at home? Thanks

Welcome Spirral: Your Sammies are lovely!

Haza: Good luck finding a puppy!

[toughgirl27]

Hi everyone,

I emailed Simba's breeder the other day and she told me that his father had a hip score of 20 and his mother 10.

She said the breed average is 17 so they were acceptable to breed from.

Is this correct? Or do you guy's think 10 and 20 hip scores are way too high?

XXToughgirlXxxx

A score of 10 to me is fine, but you would always hope for lower, but it would not stop me.

20 IMO I would have 2nd and 3rd thoughts about using a dog with that score. The dog would have to be super fantasic, before you even think about it, and there is no super fantasic dogs around.

As for a 4-1 score, you want each side as close as possible, but this score is still very acceptable due to its low score.

In some parts of Europe it is a Grade A2, other parts a B. This score any breeder would be happy with.

As for naming dogs and critasizing breeders and dogs on a public forum, I would advise be very careful, as it can open a can of worms.

I don't want to cause trouble, that's why I haven't said who his breeder is

I'm just curious about what you guy's think of the scores.

Just trying to do the right thing for the breed

Thanks for all your replies!

XXtoughgirlXxxx

[keroppiyo]

So, looks like I can make it to KCC Park tomorrow to see all the Sammies!!! Can anyone suggest what time would be suitable for a spectator to arrive, and would it be better if I left my super excitable girl at home? Thanks

Dakota really seems quite good to me. I took Buffy to KCC Park once to meet her breeder. Buffy wasn't too bad, mainly just pulling me around to see things, but her breeder quickly took care of that

Too bad Buffy's not supposed to play with other dogs yet, otherwise we could meet up too. I only live about 15 mins away from KCC park.

[pip1981]

Kelly, you could still come along to meet all the other gorgeous Sammies, if Buffy doesn't mind that it....lol

Oh, and yeah pulling is exactly what Dakota will do, and I'm worried I won't be able to cuddle and take photos of the other Sammies if she is pulling my arm out of it's socket! But, I'll also feel guilty if I don't bring her....lol

I wish it was a 15 min trip for me, it's gonna take me ages to get there!

[Icemist]

The buyer also needs to be aware of more things than just having as lower score as possible. A huge thing would be temperament, of course. If the dam or sire was skittish or soft, even if they had a score of 0:0 I wouldn't want one!

Hi Bindii,

You've brought up something here that not everyone might understand.

Im not being picky here, and we all have our opinions, but I don't fully agree with your comment here, and I will explain why, after some gives a crack at some questions below.

not just for Bindii, anyone can have a crack this

Skittish or soft... what definition do you give to this?

and before making a judgment, could there be underlying factors (reasons) why a dog is skittish or soft?

Is it hereditary?

If a parent of a dog was skittish or sofy, why would you knock a puppy back?

[pip1981]

The buyer also needs to be aware of more things than just having as lower score as possible. A huge thing would be temperament, of course. If the dam or sire was skittish or soft, even if they had a score of 0:0 I wouldn't want one!

Hi Bindii,

You've brought up something here that not everyone might understand.

Im not being picky here, and we all have our opinions, but I don't fully agree with your comment here, and I will explain why, after some gives a crack at some questions below.

not just for Bindii, anyone can have a crack this

Skittish or soft... what definition do you give to this?

and before making a judgment, could there be underlying factors (reasons) why a dog is skittish or soft?

Is it hereditary?

If a parent of a dog was skittish or sofy, why would you knock a puppy back?

Hi Icemist, nice to see someone else is having a boring Saturday night...lol

Just thought I'd respond as my girl, Dakota, has been quite skittish (and by that I mean jumpy at the slightest movement/noise) ever since I can remember, and has only recently become scared of thunder cracks and other unusually loud cracking sounds.

She was the shiest and smallest puppy of her litter at 4 weeks, maybe this is where it started, although she had come out of her shell by our 6 week visit.

However, I don't think it's necessarily hereditary, as neither her Mum or litter sister are this way at all (nor any Samoyed I have met).

In saying that, I don't think we could ever be 100% sure that the trait wouldn't be passed down, so maybe Bindii is justified in her opinion too. Just the same, a dog with a more stable temperament could still throw a skittish dog, I really don't think there are any guarantees beyond basic demeanor.

I guess it's possible in Dakota's case, that something frightened her as a puppy, maybe even after we brought her home, but there is nothing we can think of. We did, in our naivety, mollycoddle her a little as a pup too, so maybe that did it, who knows.

Cheers, Carissa

[haza]

Ordered my puppy from snocozy today. Will have him by june. Can't wait!

Saw the 2 week old puppies today. They are so small!

[Bindii]

The buyer also needs to be aware of more things than just having as lower score as possible. A huge thing would be temperament, of course. If the dam or sire was skittish or soft, even if they had a score of 0:0 I wouldn't want one!

Hi Bindii,

You've brought up something here that not everyone might understand.

Im not being picky here, and we all have our opinions, but I don't fully agree with your comment here, and I will explain why, after some gives a crack at some questions below.

not just for Bindii, anyone can have a crack this

Skittish or soft... what definition do you give to this?

and before making a judgment, could there be underlying factors (reasons) why a dog is skittish or soft?

Is it hereditary?

If a parent of a dog was skittish or sofy, why would you knock a puppy back?

I'm not sure if you have written this in order to create some interesting discussion, or if you really think it's okay if a Samoyed's temperament isn't completely sound.

Soft/Skittish: When i say this I am referring to a dog that is easily frightened by noises or places, but more importantly nervousness or unsure around people. I don't mean skittish as in a playful jumpy dog, i mean 'skittish' as in jumps when a noise is heard, tail down etc and I say 'soft' in the way of it's reaction to being touched etc.

Our standard states that a Samoyed should "above all display[ing] affection towards all mankind." May i emphasize All mankind. If a Samoyed is afraid of a judge or even a puppy buyer coming to meet the parents of their pup, it certainly does not meet that particular part of the standard (which personally i feel is probably the most important thing listed in our standard for a puppy buyer (pet home) )

Another thing we know about our beautiful breed is their history of protecting their people.

You yourself, Icemist, wrote in your reply at the beginning of this thread about the Samoyed temperament

They have the best possible temperament

you then went on to quote something that you felt best describes this temperament

"The Samoyede tribesmen were peaceful nomads, who manifested extraordinary love for their beautiful dogs, treating them as members of the family. Thus their dogs developed a love and understanding of humankind and an unfailing sense of trust and loyalty which is retained in the breed to this day. They remain the delightful playmates and faithful protectors of children."

While breeders are breeding to continue the beautiful characteristics of this breed, including temperament, how could we ever expect a Samoyed to protect if it were afraid of a gust of wind that passes over the tent of the Samoyede children?

These are the reasons that i would stay away from purchasing a dog or bitch from a soft tempered dam or sire that I intended using for breeding - these i feel are very important characteristics of the breed and not something i would want to steer away from.

As far as someone who is purchasing a Samoyed as a pet - which lets face it, generally 80-90% of a litter goes to a pet home anyway, i feel that it is extremely important that their puppy gets the best chance at having a sound temperament right from the word go - their genetic make up. That way there is less chance of behavioural issues in the future, something that often leads to dogs ending up in pounds or even euthenased (not something that i have ever seen or heard of in Samoyeds - but not something i ever do want to see happen either!)

Of course upbringing and experiences have an effect on a dogs temperament but there is the underlying foundation there that determines how a puppy will be and how it will cope in different situations. I don't believe that one bad experience should effect a Samoyed for life, as i said above, Samoyeds were protectors and friends to all man kind, one scary situation should not change all of that, i feel that their temperament should be strong enough to cope with that.

All scientific writings that I have read on dogs temperament suggests that a huge percentage of that comes from their genetic make up, it is a fairly agreed on belief between scientist, vets, breeders etc as far as I was aware. It is one of the very reasons it is recommended that puppy buyers meet the parents of their puppies, one of the (many) reasons why we say pet shops are so awful - because who knows what the parents are like, and there is no option to meet them.

In saying that, I don't think we could ever be 100% sure that the trait wouldn't be passed down, so maybe Bindii is justified in her opinion too. Just the same, a dog with a more stable temperament could still throw a skittish dog, I really don't think there are any guarantees beyond basic demeanor.

I feel that if a dog is displaying signs of unsound temperament then you know for sure that it has the chance of passing it on, so there is risk involved. Of course a dog could be carrying the genes to throw a dog with a soft temperament even tho that dam/sire doesn't display it but that is why breeding is always somewhat of a gamble. The idea is to try an lessen the chance of things you don't want cropping up.

And i must add... I would have never though of Dakota as having a soft or skittish temperament... She is probably the most out going and friendly doggy at the Kepala meet ups! What are you talking about

I must just also add that I really am new to all of this, my opinions are those only from what I have learnt in the last year of being involved with this breed, and also from that of my studies that i am completing through work - while i have done a lot of research on the breed in this time I understand that perhaps I may not be completely correct about everything and I am not trying to say at all that I am completely correct. In the end it is each persons interpetation of the standard and history of the breed and also our own ideals. Working in the animal industry where I see a lot of the 'other side' type of stuff, for me, temperament is definitely so important, and from what I understand, it is particularly important in this breed.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Bindii