An Interesting Link

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

surely people choose forums that support their way of doing things? if this forum was only for positively based training methods, whilst that may hold some interest for me as it is another type of training methodology, it is not a forum that i would contribute to as my view is that dogs sometimes need corrections that are physical.

there will always be differences in opinion around training but it should be around the methodology, not personal digs at others, and it should be educational so that we can all learn something of value.

if there are people on here that are frightened to post then maybe this isn't the right forum for them and it may be helpful to them if they looked for another forum that supported their views. if they found a forum like that then they would not fear posting to it.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

And it's insinuations that those of us who would dare stoop to the lowly and stupid (as Anita implied, people who use physical corrections aren't being 'smart')

I implied no such thing, I can't stop you inferring a criticism from it but I am disappointed that you have.

I was talking about my breed and where I find success with my dogs and my standards for myself.

I don't see how that translates to a comment on what every one else is doing, particularly as I have a breed that is super easy to shut down.

My primary issue with any correction is the same issue Karen Pryor emphasises in her recent book - that is that it is reinforcing to the deliverer as well as the recipient. In addition to my considerations about my dogs and what they respond best to, I choose to avoid physical correction for my own personal reasons. I will use correction where necessary to avoid a greater evil or, when it comes to voice correction, on the occasions where I am not the trainer I could be and haven't thought about it before opening my mouth. Being an imperfect human and all.

I go out of my way not to judge other DOLers and it aggravates me that even talking about my own standards and my own experience with my dogs, and not mentioning anyone else, can be read as an implied judgment. I have stayed right out of the slanging match in this thread about other people's dogs.

Should I say nothing about what I do with my dogs in case people who use physical corrections might feel slighted that I choose to avoid them? What's next, I shouldn't say I walk them on a flat collar in case prong people feel slighted? Good lord, I am really not that important. To me this is just another way of shutting the more positive people down. If you have confidence in your methods, what I say about what I choose for my dogs shouldn't concern you at all.

[huski]

I implied no such thing, I can't stop you inferring a criticism from it but I am disappointed that you have.

I was talking about my breed and where I find success with my dogs and my standards for myself.

Anita, apologies if you were strictly referring to yourself, my comments were based purely on this quote;

It may be the breed I have too, it is usually a mental game with them, not a physical one and I get much more success by stopping and thinking than by using physical correction. The "is that the best you can come up with, infidel?" look of disdain reminds me to keep it smart, not physical.

When I read the above I thought you were inferring that 'smart' training doesn't include physical corrections, that physical corrections don't involve thinking it through. If that wasn't the case and you didn't mean to infer that, like I said above, I apologise for misinterpreting you.

Edited July 22, 2009 by huski

[Erny]

surely people choose forums that support their way of doing things? if this forum was only for positively based training methods, whilst that may hold some interest for me as it is another type of training methodology, it is not a forum that i would contribute to as my view is that dogs sometimes need corrections that are physical.

Quite often the difference is that those forums don't permit for views which are contrary to what they prescribe to. And even if it does permit it, often a 'contrary' contributor is hounded down for their view without any discussion about the why's and wherefores and without entertaining any notion of having a conversation about your view point.

DOL is different. All views will be discussed. A person might not like the fact that their view is dissected and discounted as a result, but at least it will be talked about.

I've been an active participant on another forum and you can 'whisper' the words "e-collar" in a post ...... you should see the hoards running to the thread and their first words are one of ridicule, disdain and personal insult and attack. They ignore any description of the methodology you use behind the e-collar (eg negative reinforcement/low stim) and they yell you down with cries of "cruelty" "shock the dog" "fear" "high zaps" and so-on. And for every one of your posts, there will be an army of ten to guide attention away from the fact that you are posting matter of sense. They don't answer questions posed yet they will loudly demand that you answer to every one of their questions - and then grab hold of part of what you've said, quote it back and throw it in your face. They do everything they can to steer the thread off track and due to their numbers they are usually successful. I've been accused of having a mental disorder and so on and so forth.

It does take some courage to speak out when you have a contrary view as when you're swimming 'against the tide' you risk feeling silly for your view. Usually that's a personal notion, I find and for the most part here (law of averages) the majority of people will either counter your view with the support of explanation, or will agree with it.

...there will always be differences in opinion around training but it should be around the methodology, not personal digs at others, and it should be educational so that we can all learn something of value.

Agree 100%. Generally any 'digs' is towards people who contribute in a fashion that is not congenial to the flow of the thread. But definitely, making it personal should be avoided.

if there are people on here that are frightened to post then maybe this isn't the right forum for them and it may be helpful to them if they looked for another forum that supported their views. if they found a forum like that then they would not fear posting to it.

As I've mentioned above, sometimes that is the person's own fear and not the fault of the forum (ie the people who make up the forum). If anyone posts, they need to be aware they are writing publicly and therefore anything that forms the content of their post is open to challenge or refute. They need to be able to accept that. The backward and forward banter that many people refer to as 'argument' (in a negative context) is actually people working through the supportive debate/reasoning so that either a conclusion can be reached or so that others who are reading have a range of supported views available to be able to draw their own conclusions.

With forums that are closed such as those which exist for (eg) 'positive only' discussion, learning IMO is limited as it is like talking to the converted. The best way to learn (again IMO) is to view a countering 'side' and begin to compare it with what you know (or think you know).

Edited July 22, 2009 by Erny

[huski]

I've been an active participant on another forum and you can 'whisper' the words "e-collar" in a post ...... you should see the hoards running to the thread and their first words are one of ridicule, disdain and personal insult and attack. They ignore any description of the methodology you use behind the e-collar (eg negative reinforcement/low stim) and they yell you down with cries of "cruelty" "shock the dog" "fear" "high zaps" and so-on. And for every one of your posts, there will be an army of ten to guide attention away from the fact that you are posting matter of sense. They don't answer questions posed. They do everything they can to steer the thread off track and due to their numbers they are usually successful. I've been accused of having a mental disorder and so on and so forth.

Erny, unfortunately that has been my experience too.

Actually, in a rather funny example, I was once banned from a small forum for posting a link to TOT - apparently it's cruel to put a dog on a tie out, and to use their hunger as a 'bribe'. No kidding!

Edited July 22, 2009 by huski

[Kavik]

I just watched the fear aggressive dog one with the headcollar (had to get Quicktime first) - did not look that positive to me! Lot of use of the headcollar, lots of fast movement by handler. Probably how I would have tried to do things with Zoe in the past. Unfortunately I found the constant need to do stuff like tricks and lots of movement to keep her attention on me around other dogs very tiring, and I don't think it really taught her how to deal with other dogs. Recently I have also had success with a sort of stand like a tree method combined with Click to Calm, if she starts pulling because there is a dog walking in front and she starts to focus on it, I stop and wait and when she gives me attention on her own she gets rewarded and we continue. I have found calming things down and giving her the choice instead of always trying to elicit attention through commands, movement etc has helped.

[Kavik]

I do understand what some are saying re hounding - e collars on this forum are a good example. When I first came on you were hounded if you mentioned you were interested in them. Now you are hounded if you say you don't wish to use one. Very interesting turn of events.

[Quickasyoucan]

And it's insinuations that those of us who would dare stoop to the lowly and stupid (as Anita implied, people who use physical corrections aren't being 'smart')

I implied no such thing, I can't stop you inferring a criticism from it but I am disappointed that you have.

I was talking about my breed and where I find success with my dogs and my standards for myself.

I don't see how that translates to a comment on what every one else is doing, particularly as I have a breed that is super easy to shut down.

My primary issue with any correction is the same issue Karen Pryor emphasises in her recent book - that is that it is reinforcing to the deliverer as well as the recipient. In addition to my considerations about my dogs and what they respond best to, I choose to avoid physical correction for my own personal reasons. I will use correction where necessary to avoid a greater evil or, when it comes to voice correction, on the occasions where I am not the trainer I could be and haven't thought about it before opening my mouth. Being an imperfect human and all.

I go out of my way not to judge other DOLers and it aggravates me that even talking about my own standards and my own experience with my dogs, and not mentioning anyone else, can be read as an implied judgment. I have stayed right out of the slanging match in this thread about other people's dogs.

Should I say nothing about what I do with my dogs in case people who use physical corrections might feel slighted that I choose to avoid them? What's next, I shouldn't say I walk them on a flat collar in case prong people feel slighted? Good lord, I am really not that important. To me this is just another way of shutting the more positive people down. If you have confidence in your methods, what I say about what I choose for my dogs shouldn't concern you at all.

I think that's a fair post but I think the problem some people have with corvus' posts is that she is not saying that, she is trying to extrapolate her own experience to warn people off what she sees as suffering the same consequences as she did with her one single dog.

CM himself says in his book (thought I am not suggesting he made this quote up) "two dog trainers can't seem to agree on anything except the fact that a third dog trainer is completely wrong". Everyone is entield to their own beliefs IMO, I am not going to suggest what you are doing is wrong if it works for you, but to suggest that people might be infinitely damaging their relationship with their dog by doing something (when the person suggesting it has only had experience with their own dog) is wrong.

I also don't agree with the constant comparison with dogs to wild animals. After all they are not wild animals, they share some special features that other animals do not have due to their long road of domestication to humans. No I don't consider my dog a human but he is not a wild animal either and I won't treat him as such.

Like I have already said, I have used physical corrections on my own dog as he had some issues and my relationship with him is 100% better. Is he fearful, no, is he more attentive and in Cesar's own terminology "balanced" I believe yes.

For the record I like Cesar's world view about balanced dogs, exercise discipline etc, the details I would leave to a local professional trainer (in my case Steve).

With my dad's dog again as I have already said, I wouldn't necessarily have used the same methods, but I would still have been aiming for a happy balanced dog, just taken a different route. Doesn't mean the other methods are worse or wrong, or more hardcore.

You have to do what works for you and your dog.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

<snip>

Quite often the difference is that those forums don't permit for views which are contrary to what they prescribe to. And even if it does permit it, often a 'contrary' contributor is hounded down for their view without any discussion about the why's and wherefores and without entertaining any notion of having a conversation about your view point.

DOL is different. All views will be discussed. A person might not like the fact that their view is dissected and discounted as a result, but at least it will be talked about.

<snip>

that is why i think DOL is such a good forum because there is often more than one view expressed and this makes me think!!!!

i might not always initially agree with what someone has written but sometimes i change my mind based on the discussion.

it does surprise me that it has been said that some people are too fearful to post but i agree with you in that it may be their individual issue and not an issue with this forum.

ETA the best thing about discussions and this forum is that we are here to try to do the best thing by our dogs and in my case i want to ensure that i look after her in the best way possible.

not having a perfect dog i look at all opinions in helping her become a well balanced dog.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Staranais]

We can only talk about training from our own perspectives. From my perspective, what is so smart about punishing an animal you love and want to trust you? Doesn't make much sense to me. Punishment by its very definition is unpleasant. I certainly do use punishments. And I certainly consider myself stupid for having to do something to my dog that they don't like rather than something they do like because I just flew in the face of all my aims.

Well, punishment is useful because it can:

a) increase the bond you have with a dog, since some dogs actually like having boundaries, and will either view you as a complete "walk over" or lose trust in you if you don't enforce the rules, and

b) make the dog a heck of a lot easier to live with, if it respects behavioural boundaries

However, I really find it hard to believe that you don't punish your own dog, Corvus. What do you do when she does something you don't like, that simple ignoring won't extinguish? Or do you just mean you don't actually correct your dog? That's quite another thing.

Heck, with my new malinois pup, seems like half of what I do when I'm interacting with her is punishing her. I time-out her for barking at the cats, I NRM her when she chews my hands or rips my clothes instead of her toys, I temporarily deny her a reward when she hasn't followed my cue.

I don't do that for fun. I do it because I can't imagine what kind of crazy monster she'd grow into if I wasn't constantly giving her boundaries now! So from my perspective, using punishment is a very smart thing to do to this animal, who I want to love and trust me.

As for the forum not being "balanced", positive reinforcement/no correction techniques get discussed here all the time. Just look at any recent thread, and I think you'll find that many techniques suggested are either positive based or positive only.

I suspect what your PM contacts are really complaining about is that they can't come here and insinuate that trainers who use corrections are lazy, unskilled, or cruel without being challenged. Personally, that's one of the things I like about this forum.

[Erny]

I do understand what some are saying re hounding - e collars on this forum are a good example. When I first came on you were hounded if you mentioned you were interested in them. Now you are hounded if you say you don't wish to use one. Very interesting turn of events.

"Hounded" though, Kavik?

Questioned, sure. And probably by a reasonable number as many have had such good success with them, which is probably why it feels like being "hounded".

And whilst we're on the subject - I don't think people have any concerns about people not wanting to use one. But it's when they make untrue/inaccurate statements about the e-collar as their reason for not wanting to use one, that will definitely bring the people who understand the e-collar more, out of the woodwork .

[huski]

Well, punishment is useful because it can:

a) increase the bond you have with a dog, since some dogs actually like having boundaries, and will either view you as a complete "walk over" or lose trust in you if you don't enforce the rules, and

b) make the dog a heck of a lot easier to live with, if it respects behavioural boundaries

However, I really find it hard to believe that you don't punish your own dog, Corvus. What do you do when she does something you don't like, that simple ignoring won't extinguish? Or do you just mean you don't actually correct your dog? That's quite another thing.

Heck, with my new malinois pup, seems like half of what I do when I'm interacting with her is punishing her. I time-out her for barking at the cats, I NRM her when she chews my hands or rips my clothes instead of her toys, I temporarily deny her a reward when she hasn't followed my cue.

I don't do that for fun. I do it because I can't imagine what kind of crazy monster she'd grow into if I wasn't constantly giving her boundaries now! So from my perspective, using punishment is a very smart thing to do to this animal, who I want to love and trust me.

As for the forum not being "balanced", positive reinforcement/no correction techniques get discussed here all the time. Just look at any recent thread, and I think you'll find that many techniques suggested are either positive based or positive only.

Great post Staranais

I suspect what your PM contacts are really complaining about is that they can't come here and insinuate that trainers who use corrections are lazy, unskilled, or cruel without being challenged. Personally, that's one of the things I like about this forum.

I suspect the same thing.

[Kavik]

Certainly questioned a lot more than someone who for example says they don't wish to shape using a clicker

Not everyone is comfortable using every tool, whether it is seen to be positive or not so positive. Some people don't have the patience for shaping (though now I have gotten the hang of it, I use it all the time!) and others are not comfortable with the use of an ecollar even if it is low stim and they understand the methodology.

[Erny]

Great post Staranais

Staranais always writes good posts .

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i have two children and i have successfully used punishment with them. they are now law abiding, hard working, contributing memebrs of the community.

they love me, even visit me and we have an extremely close bond that punishment did not break.

i dread to think what they would have turned out like if i had never punished them, grounded them or given them boundaries.

i see raising a dog the same as raising children, they need to know what's right, what's wrong and how to behave when they go out.

[Erny]

Certainly questioned a lot more than someone who for example says they don't wish to shape using a clicker

Difference being the specifics.

Not everyone is comfortable using every tool, whether it is seen to be positive or not so positive. Some people don't have the patience for shaping (though now I have gotten the hang of it, I use it all the time!) and others are not comfortable with the use of an ecollar even if it is low stim and they understand the methodology.

I agree.

And anyone who says "I am not comfortable with the notion of using an e-collar on dogs I work with even though I acknowledge that for some it can be used successfully without evil consequences" (or words to that effect) then I say "fair enough".

If someone came out and said they felt the clicker was cruel (even when being used correctly) then I'd argue that concept out too .

Edited July 22, 2009 by Erny

[Staranais]

Certainly questioned a lot more than someone who for example says they don't wish to shape using a clicker

I don't wish to shape with a clicker. However, I freely admit that this is because I find it frustrating. Since I teach my dog tricks for fun, I use methods I find fun unless I really have to try the frustrating ones.

If I said that "where thinking stops, shaping starts" or "from my perspective, what is so smart about using shaping with an animal you love and want to trust you" then I'd expect to be questioned about it by people that like shaping!

Eta: where are my manners today? Thankyou Huski and Erny.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Staranais

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

<snip>

Eta: where are my manners today? Thankyou Huski and Erny.

lol, mine too, thank you both!!

[corvus]

We can only talk about training from our own perspectives. From my perspective, what is so smart about punishing an animal you love and want to trust you? Doesn't make much sense to me. Punishment by its very definition is unpleasant. I certainly do use punishments. And I certainly consider myself stupid for having to do something to my dog that they don't like rather than something they do like because I just flew in the face of all my aims.

However, I really find it hard to believe that you don't punish your own dog, Corvus. What do you do when she does something you don't like, that simple ignoring won't extinguish? Or do you just mean you don't actually correct your dog? That's quite another thing.

Hello. Right there.

Oh wait, I have a brainwave. I said I raised an animal without physical corrections, I think. I was talking about my hare. I sure as hell trained that sucker (you try sharing a room with a nocturnal adolescent! :D) But no one wants to hear about my hare. That much is clear.

I have certainly not made any comments on other people's dogs. I went out of my way to state I wouldn't do anything of the sort because I don't know enough. Like Anita, I find it aggravating that I can't talk about my experiences and my way of thinking - NOT what I somehow think everyone else should do or some such - without having everyone take it very personally.

One last time. I talk about my experiences with one dog. I have no need to backpedal because this has been my message from the start. When I say "you don't know what you're missing" I mean the proverbial you, anyone, particularly me, no one in particular. Like when you (I) say "You come in here and share your ideas and get flamed." for example. When I generalise about dogs and other animals, I'm trying to explain why I do the things I do. I don't need a single person to agree with that and I'm not asking for it. Just trying to make myself understood. Considering how many times I have to repeat myself and still people are determined to misinterpret, it seems like a lost cause. I can take legit criticisms of positive training in my stride. Yes, there are problems with some tools and they way people use them. I will even freely admit that my dog seems stressed about clicker training. I'm yet to see the same from some of the members on this forum that embrace physical corrections.

No, dogs are not wild animals, thank god. But they are animals and however you look at it at the most basic level, all animals (with a brain) learn the same way. That's why operant conditioning is so fundamental to animal training. Any animal. And any method, huski. Drive training does utilise OC. It's not new and unique. I really don't understand why we have to treat dogs differently.

Give me a break, guys, I've mentioned my hare just once in this thread in passing! I was really proud of that effort.

Once again. I don't care what methods you use. This is "you" as in the reader. I just know that I lost something and I never got it back. I don't want that to happen to other people. It's just a warning and if you want to ignore it I frankly don't care. Just don't put words in my mouth and paint me as someone I'm not. I wouldn't dream of judging people. It's anathema to me and I am appalled that people are determined to think that about me. I apologise most sincerely to anyone who feels I have judged them. I promise I have not and I strongly believe that every person on this forum is doing the best they can for their dogs and it is entirely their business what methods they use.

Except Huski, who I judged ages ago. ;)

Just kidding, huski.

[Staranais]

We can only talk about training from our own perspectives. From my perspective, what is so smart about punishing an animal you love and want to trust you? Doesn't make much sense to me. Punishment by its very definition is unpleasant. I certainly do use punishments. And I certainly consider myself stupid for having to do something to my dog that they don't like rather than something they do like because I just flew in the face of all my aims.

However, I really find it hard to believe that you don't punish your own dog, Corvus. What do you do when she does something you don't like, that simple ignoring won't extinguish? Or do you just mean you don't actually correct your dog? That's quite another thing.

Hello. Right there.

OK, I misunderstood. You just said in the same quote that you don't want to use punishment, because you consider yourself stupid when you do so, and I assumed that meant you were trying not to use punishment any longer (well, I try to avoid doing things that I think are stupid).

So you do punish your dog, but think you are stupid to do so. I don't get it (I really don't), but whatever works for you and your dog I guess. I punish when I have to so my pup grows up into a bearable house companion, and don't think I'm stupid for doing so.

Incidentally, I don't mind reading about the hare. I think it's often interesting, and some observations you make are certainly relevant to dog training, especially (I suspect) when you are training a timid dog like the one you often talk about (Kivi?). Some things don't cross between species, however. My dog has prey drive that your hare will never have. I suspect she also takes far better to discipline from a "leader" figure than your hare. I would be surprised if my dog wasn't more naturally inclined to take direction from me than your hare is, and is far less easily spooked by new places and situations. And so on, and so on. My point being, when I'm training a dog, why would I choose to only use techniques that would work for a hare OR a dog, if it's quicker and easier to train in a manner that just suits a dog?