An Interesting Link

[Keshwar]

http://www.drsophiayin.com/dominance.php

Dr. Yin’s credentials are here: http://www.askdryin.com/pdf/SYCV2008forWEb.pdf

[Nekhbet]

love the cesar milan bashing links

christ. sometimes in order to get through to a dog you have to be physical. Not abusive - but use some physical touch or counter weight.

You sometimes have to make a dog do what it doesnt want to do as well. I think the terminology is a bit skewed but it has some valid points in there if you read it carefully.

[corvus]

I don't think that was particularly CM bashing in nature. I mean, the videos are right there for everyone to see. I don't know many people that would recommend a behaviourist that dealt with aggression with what is essentially intimidation and fear if that behaviourist wasn't CM. Who here thinks that a cat that hisses at a dog is trying to dominate that dog?

I used to say I thought the man had good dog instincts, but after seeing some of those videos and some other people have shown me lately I no longer have much respect for him. I'm not the kind of person that wants my relationships with my animals to be based on fear of crossing me. I've had one like that and I will never forgive myself for letting that rift between us form. I never regained the trust I had before I started using physical corrections.

As far as what the author had to say goes, notice she said she sometimes uses punishment if it's appropriate. I thought a lot of what was said made good sense.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

love the cesar milan bashing links

With immense popularity comes immense scrutiny.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Here is another link to Leadership without force...

[Keshwar]

K9: Here is another link to Leadership without force...

I would suspect that most people who read the training Forums would have seen that link.

However, I suspect that most hadn't seen the link I posted.

I have to say I really wonder about the self promotion that goes on in this forum.

From the Forum rules:

No advertising or self promotion

Posting just to promote your business or web site, will get you banned. (This includes people looking for a stud dog, selling puppies etc).

It is usually pretty obvious when members join just for this purpose. Under no circumstances can you advertise a similar site to Dogz Online or any other dog forum in any way.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: If it was self promotion I would have linked to the TOT on my web site, the copy of the TOT is put here to help people, read the thread to see just how many it helps.

No advertising or self promotion

Posting just to promote your business or web site,

K9: As I said, I could have posted my own link.

It is usually pretty obvious when members join just for this purpose.

K9: with 3600 posts I hardly think I joined just to self promote.

[Cosmolo]

I thought some of the points in the article/ link were absolutely true. There were a few things over simplified in terms of the alternatives though IMO. But not everything is about dominance.

I do wonder though how caesar would define dominance- its possible that he just has a very broad idea of dominance and the 'dominant state of mind' so doesn't necesarily think the cat for instance is being dominant in the true sense with the dog.

[Nekhbet]

I see Cesars dominant state of mind as close to how I see it - a dog that makes its own decisions about how to react to a situation without looking for behavioral cues from the owner.

I dont stick to the theory that a dog must posture, hump you etc but even fearful dogs will control situation through behavior learned through experience. Fearful dogs can react aggressively, or they can show avoidance behavior.

Depends what you mean by use of force - I think most will see the word 'force' and have a mental image of a pinned down dog or one dragged about. Nothing wrong with flooding in the right hands. But in essence force can be as simple as making the dog be there when it doesnt want to be - shutting the door to the room, not feeding the dog that day so its forced to eat from your hand etc.

Steve TOT dogs are on a tie out, why is that not considered use of force? The dog is forced to stay in the one spot, allowed to bounce about tied by its collar. Its forcing the dog into the situation wether it likes it or not ... but you sometimes HAVE to. We're all to frightened these days of making our dogs do anything or we feel like we're being mean but how will they learn?

Corvus you miss the point about corrections. Whoever you are, if your dogs are fearful of you your training regime is WRONG. Doesnt matter the dog or situation. Fear is NOT the point of corrections. They are a response from either the owner or the equipment in proportion to the behavior of the dog. If your dog rolls over and pees itself or hits the deck flinching then that crosses into abuse NOT correction. Nothing wrong with physical corrections IF warranted by the dog and its behavior.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Nekhbet

[corvus]

Corvus you miss the point about corrections. Whoever you are, if your dogs are fearful of you your training regime is WRONG. Doesnt matter the dog or situation. Fear is NOT the point of corrections. They are a response from either the owner or the equipment in proportion to the behavior of the dog. If your dog rolls over and pees itself or hits the deck flinching then that crosses into abuse NOT correction. Nothing wrong with physical corrections IF warranted by the dog and its behavior.

Dogs being treated by CM often look fearful to me. Pen never hit the deck or flinched. I never noticed the difference in her until I was reminded what an animal that does trust you an awful lot looks like. I've said it before and I'll say it again: that realisation was utterly heartbreaking and I truly hope everyone who says their dogs trust them just fine despite physical corrections never have the same revelation I did. I would venture to say that I've seen a hell of a lot of dogs looking fearful of corrections. If all those people are doing it wrong, then IMO there's a bit of a problem.

[corvus]

K9: Here is another link to Leadership without force...

I would suspect that most people who read the training Forums would have seen that link.

However, I suspect that most hadn't seen the link I posted.

I have to say I really wonder about the self promotion that goes on in this forum.

From the Forum rules:

No advertising or self promotion

Posting just to promote your business or web site, will get you banned. (This includes people looking for a stud dog, selling puppies etc).

It is usually pretty obvious when members join just for this purpose. Under no circumstances can you advertise a similar site to Dogz Online or any other dog forum in any way.

[poodlefan]

Dogs being treated by CM often look fearful to me. Pen never hit the deck or flinched. I never noticed the difference in her until I was reminded what an animal that does trust you an awful lot looks like. I've said it before and I'll say it again: that realisation was utterly heartbreaking and I truly hope everyone who says their dogs trust them just fine despite physical corrections never have the same revelation I did. I would venture to say that I've seen a hell of a lot of dogs looking fearful of corrections. If all those people are doing it wrong, then IMO there's a bit of a problem.

Corvus, there's a bit of a problem.

ETA: A lot of people give "corrections" but because they're not huge or "punishing" they don't think of them at such. If you go "uuuhh" when your dog goes to pinch your donut off the coffee table, its a correction. If you change direction or stand still when the dog pulls on the lead, that's a correction.

A "correction" to me is any handler behaviour that discourages unwanted canine behaviour. They don't even have to be physical. They do need to be appropriate (ie well timed, not creating fear) and effective for that dog.

Edited July 21, 2009 by poodlefan

[Steve K9Pro]

N: Steve TOT dogs are on a tie out, why is that not considered use of force?

K9: Who is supplying the force? Not me? If the dog pulls on the leash it is by its own choice & pull on the leash will not buy the food, so it actually teaches that force disables rewards.

N:

The dog is forced to stay in the one spot,

K9: No, it isnt, it is just unable to get to the food. As the tie out is attached before the trigger of food, the handler isnt seen as the reward remover. The dog is free to whine, jump, sit drop or stay, but, the only behaviour that will have me help the dog hain the reward is eye contact by the dogs own choice.

allowed to bounce about tied by its collar. Its forcing the dog into the situation wether it likes it or not

K9: No the dog is free to ignore me, not look, it just cant have the food in this case, doesnt bother me. There is no force but a positive advantage to give eye contact back to me.

... but you sometimes HAVE to. We're all to frightened these days of making our dogs do anything or we feel like we're being mean but how will they learn?

K9: I have never agreed to being mean to a dog to get training done, though I am certain that you are aware that I am far from frightened to give corrections. My TOT program really engages the dogs respect, by teaching the dog that its advantage lays by asking the Alpha what to do.

There is no force applied to the dog from the handler at any time in the TOT.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Here is another link to Leadership without force...

I would suspect that most people who read the training Forums would have seen that link.

However, I suspect that most hadn't seen the link I posted.

I have to say I really wonder about the self promotion that goes on in this forum.

From the Forum rules:

No advertising or self promotion

Posting just to promote your business or web site, will get you banned. (This includes people looking for a stud dog, selling puppies etc).

It is usually pretty obvious when members join just for this purpose. Under no circumstances can you advertise a similar site to Dogz Online or any other dog forum in any way.

K9: Still stinging I see Corvus over the nuetralisation thread lol...

Edited July 21, 2009 by K9 Force

[Quickasyoucan]

I have had a quick read of this and don't see anything new or ground breaking here. He is still saying the same things, talking about what CM might call "dominance" but avoiding using the word.

Some of his examples seem very simplistic. When he talks about the chickens that are alphas of their respective groups reestablishing an order when put together doesn't it logically follow that the four original groups might have had weaker individuals and that therefore naturally the order would need to be restablished with a new group.

I don't think anyone said either that pack structure was fixed and not fluid. CM talks about his family members being pack leaders too. I think sometimes people take an individual video and use it to further their own arguments. A lot of the stuff that was said in the article the OP linked to is said by CM in his books.

Don't get me wrong I can see flaws in CM's approach on occasions, but I think some people wrongly view what he calls dominance with too tight or narrow a definition. Bit like when K9 talks about neutralisation

K9 you had better watch out seems your popularity might be making you the target of "cesar milan sydrome" aka "tall poppy syndrome"...

[corvus]

PF: I said physical corrections and that's what I meant.

[Nekhbet]

I said nothing about being mean did I? I just meant that you cannot say the dog is not 'forced' (not in the physical sense) with TOT. No distraction, no other mean of food, tied out without means of escape - hence dog is 'forced' into complying with the situation if you get my meaning.

I'm not picking I'm simply saying that to say there is no 'force' is not correct. There is a degree of force whenever you restrict a dog from doing whatever it wants, hey dog training wouldnt work without it! Without leads, fences, collars, food/attention/stimulus deprivation we wouldnt get very far at all!

[~*Shell*~]

I can see this thread turning into a slinging match already.

While i don't personally agree with all of Cesar's methods, I think a lot of people who have "seen" his techniques have not infact seen them at all but have visited websites like the one mentioned and seen the clips out of context. Quite frankly, his methods are a lot less forceful than some I've seen out of other trainers, even ones who tell me their methods are purely positive. While Dr Yin makes some valid points about positive reinforcement and it's benefits, I can't see one instance in any of the clips where she deals with a dog who displays half of the aggression that many of the dogs on Cesar's show display. For example, look at the clip of Emily the Pitbull - then compare that to the clip included in "Counterconditioning a Dog That’s Fear Aggressive to Other Dogs" - same level of aggression? I think not. I also don't see this "fear" of Cesar that many people seem to - having had a fearful dog, nothing is more heartbreaking than a dog who is truely fearful of their handler. The 3rd trainer I took Zero to made Zero fearful of him (even after we had got him over his fearful tendencies) - he was a quivering mess who slinked along the ground with a very wary look in his eyes, his tail between his legs, compulsively peeing and actively trying to get away from trainer, desperate to do so - fear is not something that should ever be used to train a dog and after having seen a truely fearful dog, I don't see anything similar in the way the dogs react to Cesar.

The technique that Dr Yin uses is the technique I first started using when Zero's dog aggression became apparent - we did the foundation work with a trainer (2 trainers actually, the second trainer didn't believe ther first had done it correctly because "it always works" and so we started over with her), we got Zero to focus on me and according to the trainer, all should have been right with the world. The very second another dog was added into the equation *POOF*, all of that foundation work went out the window. Zero wouldn't focus on me for anything (in fact one day we were working with him and a big piece of steak after Zero hadn't eaten in more than 24 hours) the second the dog was in view he would go nuts and just the smell of another dog got Zero edgy and prancing around to the point where he wouldn't listen, focus or take food from me. What did those purely positive trainers suggest to me then? Without a word of a lie: "That dog isn't hardwired right, it's time you seriously considered putting him to sleep - you'll never get anywhere with him and you will certainly never fix him" was the general gist of the conversations I had with both trainers. What did I learn out of the experience? A) Zero can get a halti (and we tried 3 different kinds) off his head without even missing a beat in his walk, B) Zero would quite happily choke himself to death to get at another dog if he was on a flat collar, check chain or martingale and would probably come back for more if he was given the opportunity C) no amount of food/toys/praise would tempt him if another dog was around - Zero's sight is a lot better than mine and he could see a dog long before I could so he would work himself up to the point where he wouldn't look at food being waved in his face if he could see another dog and D) correcting him like Dr Yin does would make him growl at me - especially if I stood between him and the other dog like she does in the clip. I ended up with a stressed out dog who was always on the lookout for other dogs and whose aggression was escalating because he was only getting negative experiences when he was around other dogs which were compounded by the fact that I was having negative experiences too. Placing him in a situation where he was around other dogs without an escape (like what happens in Dr Yin's clip) just made him worse.

Enter DOL and the many many DOLers who recommended Steve to me (and I might add, not once did he have to "self promote" - I was contacted via PM by numerous people when I asked about behaviourists who recommended him to be because of what he had done for them and their dog in addition to the people who publically recommended him) - I booked the first available appointment and then waited the 3 months for that appointment to rock around. I think this picture speaks for itself:

I have to add that I used a prong collar on Zero - in a lot of people's opinion this makes me a bad owner because I physically corrected him and "forced" him to comply with my will. Has it impacted on our relationship? Hell yes it has - my dog looks to me, he trusts me and he enjoys being around me and walking with me because he no longer has to be on the lookout for other dogs or be fearful of strangers because he trusts that I won't put him in a situation where anything bad will happen to him because I will handle any situation that we come across, good or bad. It's no longer up to him to take charge - I can handle it and I do handle it. At an aggression workshop Zero was lunged at by another dog who was close to us - I reacted more than Zero did. He just looked up at me to see what my reaction would be and didn't move from the spot, even though I hadn't given him a command. He was 100% relaxed - how many people can tell you they have a dog who would do that when threatened? Does that sound like a dog who is fearful of it's owner? Here are some photos of Zero and I working together - does he look fearful of me? Note: These photos were taken by Terranik at 2 events where there were multiple dogs Zero hadn't met before.

I don't know about anyone else but he looks like a relaxed, happy, non-fearful dog to me. In fact, in the first photo he looks excited to be working with me and that's his normal face when we're together. If you can see fear in that expression, you need your eyes checked.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that not all training methods work for all dogs and Dr Yin's method didn't work for us. I truely believe that purely positive methods don't work for Zero and I know a lot of dogs just like him where those methods have failed. I also believe that they do work for certain dogs but I would like to see Dr Yin work with a dog who has been involved in dog fighting and trained to be aggressive towards other dogs since they were a puppy to see how fast she can get results with them (we worked for 12 months with her technique and it just made Zero worse). I know for a fact that Cesar has quite a few of these dogs in his pack and that without him, those dogs would have been euthanised. I would rather see him "force" a dog into submission and have that dog lead a long, happy life than have them PTS after years of fighting, having never had the experience of living peacefully with other dogs. Most of his cases are dogs who are beyond the help of the majority of trainers and even some behaviourists and let's face it, he does get results without physically hurting the dog, and IMO (though I'm well aware that this is the point a lot of people will disagree with me on) without mentally hurting them either.

[Steve K9Pro]

Q: K9 you had better watch out seems your popularity might be making you the target of "cesar milan sydrome" aka "tall poppy syndrome"..

K9: Not again, many years has past since I was a target...

N: I said nothing about being mean did I?

You said "We're all to frightened these days of making our dogs do anything or we feel like we're being mean but how will they learn?"

N: I just meant that you cannot say the dog is not 'forced' (not in the physical sense) with TOT.

K9: I can as I designed the program & the force that people refer to in dog training is physical force. In the TOT, there is no physical force only a range of options placed before the dog in which choosing the right one will release the reward.

N: No distraction, no other mean of food, tied out without means of escape - hence dog is 'forced' into complying with the situation if you get my meaning.

K9: You can see it that way but the important factor is that the dogs don't, physical force installing pain creates avoidance in dogs, I only use food drive that transgresses into pack drive in the TOT, not avoidance therefore the dogs dont suffer by the drive flattening aversions of physical force.

N: I'm not picking I'm simply saying that to say there is no 'force' is not correct.

K9: Your welcome to your opinion, even though its wrong.

N: There is a degree of force whenever you restrict a dog from doing whatever it wants

K9: Nope, that's called restraint. Force is something that is applied when were talking dog training.

[Nekhbet]

Your welcome to your opinion, even though its wrong.

thats only your opinion as well steve. I didnt say I didnt agree with your method either, nor did I comment on physical force. I was commenting on the fact that some 'without force' methods are not truly that when really thought about. The word force is not always necessarily something that is physically applied but oh well, and if you think about you're applying pressure force to comply through hunger, tethering (no escape) etc. I'm leaving before you just sit here bored and pick on everything again simply because you want to be right in your own mind.

we feel like we're being mean but how will they learn?

that was an owner perception I was commenting about. Some owners think they're mean if their dog doesnt have the fluffiest bed, the most expensive collar or the finest human steak cooked, warm and pre-chopped for their dog right on time.

Shell its so great to see. I too do not believe that most dogs are a PTS case just because of aggressive responses. I love getting photos like yours from my clients. I am proud of them both as they work as a team and I love seeing the new 'you' from them too when their confidence returns with their dogs

Edited July 21, 2009 by Nekhbet