Drop Position

[MissLotus]

Hi,

I know there is another thread about the drop position a few topics below, however mine is reverse.

I've been training my lil girl the drop position from a sit position by using food and luring her down into the drop position.

I have used the hand signal as the drop and once she is in the position I would treat her with my other hand. The problem I am having is that if she can't smell food in my hand that i use to signal, she will not drop. If i just use the command "drop" she looks at me.

She only does it when there is food. How can I take the food away from the equation and get her to drop with just the command?

I don't think I am doing anything wrong as the puppy school teacher is saying everything I am doing is correct... just keep treating her in the other hand... but it's been about 2 months now and still no progress. Could it be that I am training her on cold tiles at home? I never had this much problem with her brother.

Someone suggested when she is just lying there on the ground, to say the command and treat her.

I want her to get the "drop" before i teach her to "roll"

Any advice would be great.

[piper]

Someone suggested when she is just lying there on the ground, to say the command and treat her.

I want her to get the "drop" before i teach her to "roll"

Any advice would be great.

I have suggested this to people in my puppy classes and it has worked for them. Watching closely and saying it as the dog is doing it. Don't say it too soon or they stop and come over as you spoke, needs to be just as they are laying down. As you have been working for several months on it I would probably use a new cue for this as she already associates drop with waiting for the food to be present. So maybe use down or settle for it.

Do you clicker train? You could have food on you, click as she drops then run off to get reward from a container on a bench or something so the reward does not come from you where you are. If doing this I would have low value treats like kibble on you and high value treats away from you and gradually fade havign treats on you as she learns that rewards can come from anywhere. Does she like toys or anything? Ask fo a drop then have a game of tug or throw a toy for her to play with when she listens.

Have you tried having the food near you (eg on the coffee table), but not on you and picking it up to reward if she drops. And if she doesn't listen taking yourself and the food and going away.

Usually the scenario you are describing occurs when the lure was kept in place too long and it can be overcome but it takes more work to do so.

You mention cold tiles - this will prevent some dogs dropping happily. You could try on a low table or grooming table, I have had some people with little smooth haired dogs have success on the bed or the lounge and then able to get the drop once the dog understood what was required. I would definitely be making sure though that you do not bribe her into drops by showing her you have food before asking for it.on

[MissLotus]

Hi Piper, thanks for your advice.

I have tried watching her for about 30 minutes but all she does is sit and stare at me, as if she knows that I am going to ask her to do something.

I think I will have to be patient and just keep watching her until she gives me the action before I say the command, but maybe on the rug instead of the tiles.

Ideally I would like to use the command "drop", just because her brother knows this command too. Would it be bad if I still try the word "drop" for a week or two, but introduce the clicker as you have mentioned? Wait for the action, click, command then treat?

I sometimes have the food near by, instead of having it in my hands, while getting her to drop. If she doesn't drop by the cue of my hand, I sometimes just rub the food on my finger tips so she can go into a drop, but I think you may be right, I think the treat may be there to lure her one second too long.

Unfortunately when training is involved, she doesn't like toys to be her reward, she rather the food or cuddles. So at times, when I can use my hand cue to get her to drop, I would give her a pat instead of food. I am trying my very best to minimize the food treats.

[Guest Ams]

Hi Piper, thanks for your advice.

I have tried watching her for about 30 minutes but all she does is sit and stare at me, as if she knows that I am going to ask her to do something.

I think I will have to be patient and just keep watching her until she gives me the action before I say the command, but maybe on the rug instead of the tiles.

Ideally I would like to use the command "drop", just because her brother knows this command too. Would it be bad if I still try the word "drop" for a week or two, but introduce the clicker as you have mentioned? Wait for the action, click, command then treat?

I sometimes have the food near by, instead of having it in my hands, while getting her to drop. If she doesn't drop by the cue of my hand, I sometimes just rub the food on my finger tips so she can go into a drop, but I think you may be right, I think the treat may be there to lure her one second too long.

Unfortunately when training is involved, she doesn't like toys to be her reward, she rather the food or cuddles. So at times, when I can use my hand cue to get her to drop, I would give her a pat instead of food. I am trying my very best to minimize the food treats.

The clicker does not replace the word "drop" it is simply the reward for having obeyed the command. Still give the command, and when she does it, then click before reaching for the treat reward. That way there is a pause between completion of the command and the reward. If she will work for cuddles then that is an alternative option. My boy prefers and good cuddle rather than a treat as a reward. The clicker still comes after she does the drop and before any other reward. In simple terms the clicker becomes " Yes u done good" and then a treat or cuddle is the bonus.

[MissLotus]

Evening all,

Is it wrong of me to use all sorts of different methods to teach her the "drop" command?

- lure her down with the food

- watch her until she goes into the drop position

- when she is lying down, say "drop" and treat her

It's getting a bit frustrating and I feel as if i am failing as an Owner. I've used the same technique with her brother in the past and there wasn't any issues. It got to the point where I placed her dinner in front of her waiting for her to offer that position, 15 min later, I had to use kibbles to lure her down in a drop position .

I don't think she has any other issues with picking up other commands.

[BaileyWei]

Bailey has only just mastered Drop without a treat and she is 6.5 months so it might take some time. Just be persistent and if she drops without you asking say "Drop" and then giver her a big pat and make a fuss over her so she links the word with the motion. Good luck

[MissLotus]

Thanks for all your advice.

BaielyWei - that makes me feel so much better that she is now 6.5 and just mastered it. Mine's just turn 5 months old.

Jesskah - thank you for making me aware of my body movements. I have made a conscious effort of when I say "drop" to be in different position, but I use my hand so she can follow it down. She will follow my hand once or twice without the food, then she catches on that there is no food so she will not drop.

I am trying to watch her and catch her in the act so I can say Drop and praise her.

Is there anything wrong if she is already in her drop position and I come over and just say "drop" and praise her? Will I be confusing her in anyway? I am trying to eliminate treating her with food, so she knows drop isn't going to get her food.

[BaileyWei]

Thanks for all your advice.

BaielyWei - that makes me feel so much better that she is now 6.5 and just mastered it. Mine's just turn 5 months old.

Jesskah - thank you for making me aware of my body movements. I have made a conscious effort of when I say "drop" to be in different position, but I use my hand so she can follow it down. She will follow my hand once or twice without the food, then she catches on that there is no food so she will not drop.

I am trying to watch her and catch her in the act so I can say Drop and praise her.

Is there anything wrong if she is already in her drop position and I come over and just say "drop" and praise her? Will I be confusing her in anyway? I am trying to eliminate treating her with food, so she knows drop isn't going to get her food.

MissLotus, where are you practicing your drops. I do it with Bailey on her Snooza Fouton or on her blanket inside as she wont drop on the cold concrete or damp grass (without a treat).

[MissLotus]

its a matter of trial and error, cause your the one that knows yur dog and wat shes capable of and to find out your limits.

so yeh, ask say twice, give the treat, then repeat then gradually ask 3 times etc.

just another option, so she isnt expecting food EVERY time.

Ok, I will give this ago and hopefully she will follow my hand movement (without my fingertips being smothered by food).

I was starting to teach her in out kitchen on the cold tiles, however I am now taking her out to the rug to practice the drops where it is nice and warm. Then when she jumps onto our couch (where she loves to sleep), I just wait for her to get into the drop position then say the word drop then pat or a treat.

Fingers cross that I will succeed.

[Erny]

Don't know if it has been said as I haven't read all posts.

Lure with hand/food as per usual. Release/praise and food treat from food treat pouch with the other hand. Repeat but only once or twice. Then lure without food in the lure hand. Release/praise and food treat from food treat pouch with the other hand. (I actually like to treat the dog while it is still in the drop but this can be kind of tricky if you're not used to handling in this way, as it means you getting the treat from the pouch can induce the dog to breaking the drop position before you've given your release word - assuming you are using one.)

Get this going well and begin to gradually reduce the hand lure movement until she will drop without having to follow your hand. By this stage she should be getting the idea that the lure hand is not where the treat comes from anyway and that the treat comes to her when she has dropped.

When this is going well, begin moving her from a continuous schedule of reinforcement to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement, gradually moving the intermittent schedule further and further apart between treats as your training for the drop improves.

I sometimes use the lead and collar as a light "guide show and place" method when I am (a) no longer using food in my lure hand and/or (b) when I am reducing my lure-hand movement to help the dog understand what I want even though I've changed the goal posts slightly.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Erny

[MissLotus]

Get this going well and begin to gradually reduce the hand lure movement until she will drop without having to follow your hand. By this stage she should be getting the idea that the lure hand is not where the treat comes from anyway and that the treat comes to her when she has dropped.

When this is going well, begin moving her from a continuous schedule of reinforcement to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement, gradually moving the intermittent schedule further and further apart between treats as your training for the drop improves.

Morning Erny,

This is where my problem is, if she cannot smell food in my lure hand or see the food in the other hand, she will drop once (if I am lucky) or not at all, until she see's the food. I know all the above methods that everyone has mentioned works because her brother can drop just by the command. She on the other hand is motivated by food for this particular command. She can sit, stay, off, come just by the command and all have been taught by luring her with the food. So I am not sure why she is having issues dropping. I am just wondering how long do I keep trying before I give up! I know every dog have different learning abilities, but this is driving me nutters.

I am doing what Jesskah has mentioned, drop twice and treat on the second (I am also trying to treat her in the drop position). I am also waiting for her to drop in her own time to say the command - this is slightly hard to do. She doesn't seem to want to offer the position to get the treat. In my experience with her brother, after he dropped on his own accord and i treated and praise, it would take him roughly 2 minutes to offer different position before he realised it was a drop that got him the treat.

[Erny]

Morning Erny,

This is where my problem is, if she cannot smell food in my lure hand or see the food in the other hand, she will drop once (if I am lucky) or not at all, until she see's the food. ... I am also waiting for her to drop in her own time to say the command - this is slightly hard to do. She doesn't seem to want to offer the position to get the treat.

Then use the "guide, show, place" by using the lead and collar to gently ease her down and "lure with no food" combo. Hold the lead so she might be partly down into the drop and until she realises that until she completes the drop, she is not only not going anywhere, but it will take longer to get the food reward. This is easier to show you than to explain via the internet.