Abandoment Training For Dog Aggression

[Jigsaw]

I think I would be worried about the volunteer person or dog in these scenarios too. Having an aggressing dog coming towards you (if correction/abandonment mistimed) would be quite unpleasant. You might start with a stable dog and end up with a fearful dog with problems itself. I have heard of dogs ending up fear aggressive themselves when used in CAT scenarios as the volunteer dog. I think the 2nd leash is to control the dog perhaps rather than give an "almighty correction" so that the dog can't reach the other dog/person when the owner abandons it, the idea being the dog should ideally follow the owner.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Jigsaw

[Rex]

I was told that the problem you run into when purely relying on corrections to manage aggression is that the next time the dog goes to aggress it simply won't show any of the warning signs that you corrected it for before it attempts to attack another dog.

I certainly know giving one 'almighty leash correction' wouldn't have helped my fear aggressive dog, who was aggressive because he was under confident, correcting/punishing him so heavily would not have helped him feel more confident around other dogs.

I also agree with DeeLee that once some dogs set their sight on another dog the adrenalin rush they experience is too high for them to be affected by a leash correction, even a harsh "almighty" one.

ETA:

I believe that aggression behaviour is a serious disobediance fault that requires a serious correction which does work to perfection especially with dogs of hard temperaments.

When my dog sees another dog and displays aggressive behaviour that is fear driven, IMO it is not as simple as being "serious disobedience". Assuming that one heavy handed method would work to perfection with all dogs who display aggression is simply short sighted, IMO.

Lets assume that the dog is obedience trained at low level distraction, understands and responds to commands. Until basic obediance has been achieved, the dog hasn't graduated to high level distractions and shouldn't be exposed to them at that stage. The leash correction is administered for disobeying the "leave it" command and from experience of knowing what the dog will do, when it will lunge for example, the moment the dog see's the other dog and becomes alert to it at a distance you firmly command "leave it". The moment the short leash tightens and dog thrusts forwards, the slack is dropped and turn back in the opposite direction and keep walking with another "leave it" command. The dog comes to the end of the leash as you have picked up momentum in the opposite direction along with a harsh yank, the forward motion of the dog with the intent of getting the other dog unsuccessfully comes to a sharp ending. The dog once heavily distracted forgets it's on the leash and the shock of coming to dead stop and suddenly whipped around in the oppposite direction, it learns two things. Firstly no matter how hard he/she trys to get another dog, the attempt has a 100% failure rate and secondly the sudden stop and whip around is an unpleasant experience that the dog learns was self inflicted. The dog doesn't realise that the handler did anything and when the dog catches back up into a heel position, you praise and pat the dog for heeling beside you where he/she is supposed to be. The dog learns the comfort zone and how pleasant it is to walk by your side and follow your every move. When the situation arises where the dog attempts to bolt out the gate seeing another dog across the road, on a "leave it" command the dog will turn about off leash and come back.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Rex

[Rex]

quote name='Staranais' date='18th Jul 2009 - 09:37 PM' post='3839659']

For the record, I also had no success giving almighty leash corrections for aggression to my dog (and neither did trainers I consulted). Like Deelee, once my staffy was "in the zone" he simply couldn't care less about any type of physical punishment (and yes, I'm sorry to say we tried some very harsh corrections over the years). If anything, a hard correction razzed him up for the fight even more. Which I guess makes sense, when you think about it - would a staffy that gave up when pain was administered be any use in a dog fight (or fighting rats or bulls, as his more distant ancestors were bred to do?)

Oh yes there is a physical application that will remove any dog from the "zone" which is stringing them up with a choke collar and cutting off their oxygen supply until they pass out which is a procedure used in aggression, especially handler aggression. As severe as this procedure sounds, the alternative measure in these cases of severe aggression is being PTS, where the former method corrects the dog and enables the dog to live it's life.

[Kavik]

Honestly I have had much more success with a clicker and treats in changing my dog's response to seeing another dog coming than I did by using leash corrections. Part of this is likely to be the change in my body language and handling techniques as I am calmer as I am giving the dog an opportunity to gain a reward rather than waiting to give a correction. While I still have to give her distance from other dogs, her demeanor is much happier and she is happy to give me attention rather than give the other dog her whole focus with negativity. My aim is not to get her to know she can't get other dogs but to reduce her desire to. Luckily she is very food motivated and very keen to work with clicker and treats

[Cosmolo]

Ihave dealt with many aggressive dogs- aggressive to dogs and/ or people and i have NEVER had to 'string one up until they pass out'. Tell me Rex- what does a dog who has passed out actually learn? And yes I do use corrections- but not like that. I hate the fact that people may think because i say i use corrections that i would be the same as someone who advocates cutting off a dogs oxygen supply.

[corvus]

The dog once heavily distracted forgets it's on the leash and the shock of coming to dead stop and suddenly whipped around in the oppposite direction, it learns two things. Firstly no matter how hard he/she trys to get another dog, the attempt has a 100% failure rate and secondly the sudden stop and whip around is an unpleasant experience that the dog learns was self inflicted. The dog doesn't realise that the handler did anything and when the dog catches back up into a heel position, you praise and pat the dog for heeling beside you where he/she is supposed to be. The dog learns the comfort zone and how pleasant it is to walk by your side and follow your every move. When the situation arises where the dog attempts to bolt out the gate seeing another dog across the road, on a "leave it" command the dog will turn about off leash and come back.

How can you be sure the dog learns exactly those two things? What happens if the dog never realises that attempting to get to another dog has 100% failure rate because the dog is always so worked up at that point that it can't learn very much at all and just reacts to the frustration of not being able to reach its target? And then let's say the dog is like that dog I grew up with and associates the unpleasant experience of being whipped around with the sight of other dogs it wants to get at. Say the dog never learns that this is self-inflicted because at the time of the correction it is wholly focused on the object of its fear/distress and is not even consciously aware of what it is doing and what you are telling it to do. Mixing pain and fear is, IMO, a recipe for disaster. Stringing a dog up until it passes out? That's a pretty violent thing to do to an animal. I'd rather PTS.

[huski]

Ihave dealt with many aggressive dogs- aggressive to dogs and/ or people and i have NEVER had to 'string one up until they pass out'. Tell me Rex- what does a dog who has passed out actually learn? And yes I do use corrections- but not like that. I hate the fact that people may think because i say i use corrections that i would be the same as someone who advocates cutting off a dogs oxygen supply.

Totally agree.

Perhaps I'm too "soft" but the idea of cutting off my dog's oxygen when he is so fearful that he acts aggressively makes me feel physically sick.

And yes, it gives people who use corrections (like myself!) a bad name, there is a difference between giving a correction and what Rex thinks is an appropriate way to handle all aggressive dogs.

[huski]

Oh yes there is a physical application that will remove any dog from the "zone" which is stringing them up with a choke collar and cutting off their oxygen supply until they pass out which is a procedure used in aggression, especially handler aggression. As severe as this procedure sounds, the alternative measure in these cases of severe aggression is being PTS, where the former method corrects the dog and enables the dog to live it's life.

I know many a trainer and behaviourist who have handled severely aggressive dogs without needing to resort to such heavy handed methods.

There are more options when it comes to handling aggressive dogs than cutting off their oxygen supply or having them PTS

[Kelpie-i]

Oh yes there is a physical application that will remove any dog from the "zone" which is stringing them up with a choke collar and cutting off their oxygen supply until they pass out which is a procedure used in aggression, especially handler aggression. As severe as this procedure sounds, the alternative measure in these cases of severe aggression is being PTS, where the former method corrects the dog and enables the dog to live it's life.

Dogs that are aggressing are working in hind brain, there is no learning or even thinking happening. Why the hell would you want to string it up and cut off the airway....what the hell is the dog learning here??

Edited July 19, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Staranais]

Oh yes there is a physical application that will remove any dog from the "zone" which is stringing them up with a choke collar and cutting off their oxygen supply until they pass out which is a procedure used in aggression, especially handler aggression. As severe as this procedure sounds, the alternative measure in these cases of severe aggression is being PTS, where the former method corrects the dog and enables the dog to live it's life.

Yes, choking a dog out will remove him from the zone by forcing them to react with their most basic survival reflexes, and if that fails it stops the behaviour by making the dog fall unconscious. I have had to choke my dog off another dog before, before I learned better ways to break up dog fights. It works.

It does not teach the dog not to aggress in the future. It merely allows you to stop the fight in the present moment. If you own a dog who is a true predatory fighter, not a fear aggressive dog or just a rude snot, the reward from the fighting is so much greater than any punishment you administer after the dog has had the endorphin rush. Choking my dog off another dog in no way affected his desire to fight other dogs.

Perhaps if you choked your dog out consistently the moment he started to think about being aggressive it would work, however I do not know a single trainer who I would trust to try that on my dog. I certainly could not read my dog well enough to do that fairly and consistently with no mistakes, and I could read him pretty damn well by the end.

The dog comes to the end of the leash as you have picked up momentum in the opposite direction along with a harsh yank, the forward motion of the dog with the intent of getting the other dog unsuccessfully comes to a sharp ending. The dog once heavily distracted forgets it's on the leash and the shock of coming to dead stop and suddenly whipped around in the oppposite direction, it learns two things. Firstly no matter how hard he/she trys to get another dog, the attempt has a 100% failure rate and secondly the sudden stop and whip around is an unpleasant experience that the dog learns was self inflicted.

Yes, this works nicely if you have a dog that actually registers the leash shock. I have had my dog flip himself over backwards after running full tilt into a pinch collar on a 6 foot leash, and he was so high on endorphins and adrenaline he didn't register a thing. Yes, he was trained to walk on a loose leash under distraction using the KMODT methods. Yes, he knew what a leash correction meant.

There are a lot of good methods and philosophies in the KMODT (I presume that's where your methods come from, since they sound extremely similar?) However, like all trainers, Will Koehler did not have all the answers. Like I said, the method you describe probably works OK for an adolescent snot of a dog. Not a confirmed, experienced, predatory fighter, or even worse, a fear aggressive dog.

Off topic, but IMO the only thing that might have worked for my dog would be very regular very gradual desensitisation to other dogs, while allowing him an alternative outlet for his predatory urges, however I did not have access to the resources to try this out. I was able to achieve him being safe around cats using this method, although he was initially predatory towards cats and had killed a cat before I adopted him, which is why I suspect this may have been somewhat helpful with his dog aggression also. However, like I say that's just my suspicion, since I was never in a position to try this out.

We did have success in using drive work pre-emptively (take him out of the car and immediately start working in drive so the other dogs didn't even figure in his universe when they appeared), however a dog that can only associate with other dogs while he's furiously focusing on earning his tug isn't exactly "cured" in my book. Just very well managed.

And no, I didn't have him PTS.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Staranais

[Jigsaw]

Leerburg talks of choking a dog until it passes out when dealing with a dominant dog who is possessive of toys. http://leerburg.com/pdf/dealingwithdominantdog.pdf page 19 and on.

So this method is out there but I think I would use alternative methods first which maybe take a bit longer but wouldn't allow the dog to rehearse this level of aggressive behaviour in the first place.

[huski]

Leerburg talks of choking a dog until it passes out when dealing with a dominant dog who is possessive of toys. http://leerburg.com/pdf/dealingwithdominantdog.pdf page 19 and on.

So this method is out there but I think I would use alternative methods first which maybe take a bit longer but wouldn't allow the dog to rehearse this level of aggressive behaviour in the first place.

Isn't it Leerburg who also hits a dog over the head with a shovel as a way with dealing with aggression? I'm pretty sure it was Midol who saw him do it on a DVD of his.

[4 Paws]

Leerburg talks of choking a dog until it passes out when dealing with a dominant dog who is possessive of toys. http://leerburg.com/pdf/dealingwithdominantdog.pdf page 19 and on.

So this method is out there but I think I would use alternative methods first which maybe take a bit longer but wouldn't allow the dog to rehearse this level of aggressive behaviour in the first place.

Isn't it Leerburg who also hits a dog over the head with a shovel as a way with dealing with aggression? I'm pretty sure it was Midol who saw him do it on a DVD of his.

I believe Midol mentioned this in a previous thread but it was wrote on his website apparently,not on a dvd as I had asked him what dvd it was in as I have most of his dvd's and had never come across it.From memory he wasn't actually telling people to do that,he had said one of the hardest dogs he had owned he'd had to do that to stop it doing something,possibly attacking another dog,not 100% sure on that bit though

[Staranais]

Leerburg talks of choking a dog until it passes out when dealing with a dominant dog who is possessive of toys. http://leerburg.com/pdf/dealingwithdominantdog.pdf page 19 and on.

So this method is out there but I think I would use alternative methods first which maybe take a bit longer but wouldn't allow the dog to rehearse this level of aggressive behaviour in the first place.

Isn't it Leerburg who also hits a dog over the head with a shovel as a way with dealing with aggression? I'm pretty sure it was Midol who saw him do it on a DVD of his.

I believe Midol mentioned this in a previous thread but it was wrote on his website apparently,not on a dvd as I had asked him what dvd it was in as I have most of his dvd's and had never come across it.From memory he wasn't actually telling people to do that,he had said one of the hardest dogs he had owned he'd had to do that to stop it doing something,possibly attacking another dog,not 100% sure on that bit though

It's on the Leerburg Q & A on their website, Ed Frawley says he did it to save one of his dogs when it was being attacked. Don't think he's recommending it as a training technique to cure aggression! Flame suit on, but I'd certainly hit another dog with a shovel if it was seriously attacking my dog and I couldn't get it off any other way.

http://leerburg.com/dogattack.htm

"Once I had a very, very dog aggressive GSD male at my kennel. A mistake happened and it attacked my 13 year old female black lab (retired drug dog). He had her down by the neck and I could not get him off her. I was not about to allow him to kill her in front of me. I hit him over the head with a flat bladed kennel shovel (with the flat of the blade). I hit him as hard as I could hit him. It took somewhere between 5 and 10 hard, hard hits for him to break-off the attack and stagger away. My point here is that it did not kill him (although I was prepared to kill him rather than allow Gabby to be killed). I am sure he had a headache for a couple of days but this extreme action on my part saved my old dog's life."

[Kavik]

I have actually been really impressed with how well the Click to Calm stuff is working with Zoe. She is nearly 10 years old, I started this when she was about 8, so already a mature dog with an established problem. I don't expect that she will be happy to meet another dog, but I have seen such an improvement of her attitude towards other dogs when we are walking. She seems calmer about other dogs approaching, gives me good focus, her critical distance is smaller, she will often now choose to look at me when she sees another dog for her click/treat. If she does react, it is not as intense and much shorter and I can refocus her more quickly. I think that if I had started this at 6 months when she started becoming aggressive (and if I had the experience and handling I do now) that I would have been able to get her to the point where she would be comfortable around other dogs enough to compete and go to class. My handling of her has also relaxed, is calmer and more confident.

[huski]

Thanks for the clarification on Leerburg guys - I remember a thread that talked about it but I wasn't 100% sure!

[Nekhbet]

OMG ... what the ... now I really HAVE read anything ....

there are many different methods and which one depends on the individual dog.

check chains are not for applying constant pressure to the throat, DD collars are. Check chains were made for short sharp corrections, DD collars were for varying pressure and suppression work.

Perhaps if you choked your dog out consistently the moment he started to think about being aggressive it would work,

when do you think any correction should be applied, when your dogs already flipping out or before he gets to that uncontrollable stage.

[Staranais]

check chains are not for applying constant pressure to the throat, DD collars are. Check chains were made for short sharp corrections, DD collars were for varying pressure and suppression work.

Perhaps if you choked your dog out consistently the moment he started to think about being aggressive it would work,

when do you think any correction should be applied, when your dogs already flipping out or before he gets to that uncontrollable stage.

As early as possible, before the dog has even begun to reward themselves by performing the behaviour. However, I do not think that choking a dog out is an acceptable punishment to be used in this way. The only thing I would (and have) used choking a dog for is to get him off another animal. It's far too late to act as an effective punisher then, at least it was for my dog.

Do you think you have the timing and enough dog reading ability to choke a dog out immediately every time (and only every time) that he starts to even think about aggressive? I've never met a trainer that good, and even if I did, I think that stakes for getting it wrong are just too high.

Clearer?

[Erny]

OMG ... what the ... now I really HAVE read anything ....

there are many different methods and which one depends on the individual dog.

check chains are not for applying constant pressure to the throat, DD collars are. Check chains were made for short sharp corrections, DD collars were for varying pressure and suppression work.

Perhaps if you choked your dog out consistently the moment he started to think about being aggressive it would work,

when do you think any correction should be applied, when your dogs already flipping out or before he gets to that uncontrollable stage.

Who were you quoting above, Nekhbet? I can't find it.

[Staranais]

OMG ... what the ... now I really HAVE read anything ....

there are many different methods and which one depends on the individual dog.

check chains are not for applying constant pressure to the throat, DD collars are. Check chains were made for short sharp corrections, DD collars were for varying pressure and suppression work.

Perhaps if you choked your dog out consistently the moment he started to think about being aggressive it would work,

when do you think any correction should be applied, when your dogs already flipping out or before he gets to that uncontrollable stage.

Who were you quoting above, Nekhbet? I can't find it.

Me, that's why I replied. I'd told Rex that punishing my dog with an "almighty leash correction" as recommended hadn't stopped his aggressive behaviour, and Rex told me that I should have choked him out as a correction instead.