Abandoment Training For Dog Aggression

[4 Paws]

I read briefly in a book I had borrowed from a friend about Abandoment training for leash aggressive dogs and finally googled it and came across a dvd on the subject on Dogwise by Trish King and just ordered it

Here's a brief outline on it http://www.positivelytrained.com/edu_resou...nt_Training.pdf

anyone ever tried anything like it before?

Edited July 17, 2009 by 4 Paws

[Cosmolo]

No, haven't tried it and hadn't heard of it before. Would need some clarification- i read it as the dog aggressive dog approaches the other dog, at the first sign that the dog is going to aggress, drop the lead by throwing it at the dog and run away using conditioned cue word?

You'd want to have conditioned the response to the cue word incredibly well for an exercise like this to be safe. Its not something i would do- especially with one of my dogs as the test dog.

[4 Paws]

No, haven't tried it and hadn't heard of it before. Would need some clarification- i read it as the dog aggressive dog approaches the other dog, at the first sign that the dog is going to aggress, drop the lead by throwing it at the dog and run away using conditioned cue word?

You'd want to have conditioned the response to the cue word incredibly well for an exercise like this to be safe. Its not something i would do- especially with one of my dogs as the test dog.

I'd read more info on another website(can't find it now) and you have 2 leads attached,one normal 6 FT leash you hold and another long lead atached to either a harness or another collar another person is holding(so you need 3 people all up you,the person with the other dog on leash and the 3rd person holding the long lead)so there' s no risks involved to either dog

ETA-Found where I'd found the info about the long lead http://www.prolibraries.com/apdt/?select=s...mp;sessionID=30 (go to preview button)

Edited July 17, 2009 by 4 Paws

[Cosmolo]

Thanks for that Practicality might be an issue- it would be okay when its set up but i wonder how they carry it over when going for a normal walk and encountering a dog.

I don't think its teaching the dog that you'll abandon them or won't stand by them in a fight . I think it would just be a well conditioned cue word for the dog to come with you, same as teaching a look command really well.

[Kelpie-i]

Sounds like a way of removing the 'problem' from the equation...usually the owner!!

[4 Paws]

Thanks for that Practicality might be an issue- it would be okay when its set up but i wonder how they carry it over when going for a normal walk and encountering a dog.

I don't think its teaching the dog that you'll abandon them or won't stand by them in a fight . I think it would just be a well conditioned cue word for the dog to come with you, same as teaching a look command really well.

Will report back once I've received the dvd.I believe you would keep training using the 2nd long line till the dog stopped showing aggression

Edited July 18, 2009 by 4 Paws

[Jigsaw]

It sounds a bit like Constructional Aggression Treatment (CAT) except in reverse ie the aggressing dog is moved away in the Abandonment training whereas in CAT the "perceived threat" (other dog or person) is removed if the dog behaves well. I think in both of these methods timing and reading of dog's body language would be paramount. Would be interested in hearing if anyone has used CAT or the Abandonment method.

[Rex]

I agree with gathering up the slack of the leash, but not to throw it at the dog, but to drop the slack as the dog is about to take an aggressive lunge with a "leave it" command, about turn and administer an almighty Bill Koehler style leash correction. The dog needs to learn quickly that the thought of administering discomfort upon others will cause some discomfort for him/her self. My GSD was a liability by 18 months of age, a complete nightmare with stranger/dog aggression on leash wanting lunge at and bite everyone which no positive reinforcement training made the slightest difference. After 4 or 5 good leash corrections, he knows what comes next after a "leave it" command if he doesn't stay by my side.

He would love to have a lunge, my God would he, but on the "leave it" command he looks up straight at me now for another "leave it" command, and walks past the stranger/dog like a perfect gentleman. I believe that aggression behaviour is a serious disobediance fault that requires a serious correction which does work to perfection especially with dogs of hard temperaments.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Sounds like a way of removing the 'problem' from the equation...usually the owner!!

I think you are on to something there...

[Kavik]

I remember being told once at agility with Zoe that I should drop the leash and walk away when she showed aggression towards another dog. I was like NO WAY! Couldn't figure out how that was going to help except to turn into a fight!

[Tonymc]

With a really rank dog,I would have no faith in this approach. Tony

[corvus]

I know someone in America that met a CAT trainer, but in the end they decided her dog wasn't bad enough to really need that approach. She was poorly socialised and tended to get overly intense around other dogs, but was not really very aggressive about it.

[Agility Dogs]

We came across a guy one morning who must have read something along those lines. His Airedale (sp?) decided it needed to eat my border collie AFTER he had dropped the leash.

He was a little less than impressed to have his dog handed back to him by the scruff of the neck 3 ft off the ground - along with a mouth full of abuse. I couldn't believe anyone in their right mind would drop the leash of a dog they know AND ADMIT is aggressive.

Idiot said 'oh, but he's aggressive on lead' and couldn't work out why I was upset that his dog had jumped on mine and pinned him down.

It would have to be set up and incredibly well proofed before it could be considered anything like a good idea.

[4 Paws]

We came across a guy one morning who must have read something along those lines. His Airedale (sp?) decided it needed to eat my border collie AFTER he had dropped the leash.

He was a little less than impressed to have his dog handed back to him by the scruff of the neck 3 ft off the ground - along with a mouth full of abuse. I couldn't believe anyone in their right mind would drop the leash of a dog they know AND ADMIT is aggressive.

Idiot said 'oh, but he's aggressive on lead' and couldn't work out why I was upset that his dog had jumped on mine and pinned him down.

It would have to be set up and incredibly well proofed before it could be considered anything like a good idea.

I believe you should do the proofing while using a 2nd person holding the long line.don't think I'd be letting go of any leash unless I had the 2nd line attached.I think if you did the programme correctly it is proofed and you no longer have the aggression problem

If you read the link i placed in post #3 there is info on the 2nd leash set up

Edited July 18, 2009 by 4 Paws

[dee lee]

I agree with gathering up the slack of the leash, but not to throw it at the dog, but to drop the slack as the dog is about to take an aggressive lunge with a "leave it" command, about turn and administer an almighty Bill Koehler style leash correction. The dog needs to learn quickly that the thought of administering discomfort upon others will cause some discomfort for him/her self. My GSD was a liability by 18 months of age, a complete nightmare with stranger/dog aggression on leash wanting lunge at and bite everyone which no positive reinforcement training made the slightest difference. After 4 or 5 good leash corrections, he knows what comes next after a "leave it" command if he doesn't stay by my side.

He would love to have a lunge, my God would he, but on the "leave it" command he looks up straight at me now for another "leave it" command, and walks past the stranger/dog like a perfect gentleman. I believe that aggression behaviour is a serious disobediance fault that requires a serious correction which does work to perfection especially with dogs of hard temperaments.

What do you do when a dog couldnt give a crap about that correction?

If my dog has had a brain snap it makes little difference and the only thing I can do is pull her away. Its one of the reasons I dont use a prong (I do not enjoy stringing my reactive dog up by one when the correction has not deterred her), and with a check or martingale I can be yanking that lead til the cows come home if she is in the zone... Usually my only hope is a pre-emptive "NO" which is only about 90% successful.

Im interested in the abandonment theory, but doubt I would ever have the opportunity to try it. Too risky.

Edited July 18, 2009 by ✽deelee

[4 Paws]

I agree with gathering up the slack of the leash, but not to throw it at the dog, but to drop the slack as the dog is about to take an aggressive lunge with a "leave it" command, about turn and administer an almighty Bill Koehler style leash correction. The dog needs to learn quickly that the thought of administering discomfort upon others will cause some discomfort for him/her self. My GSD was a liability by 18 months of age, a complete nightmare with stranger/dog aggression on leash wanting lunge at and bite everyone which no positive reinforcement training made the slightest difference. After 4 or 5 good leash corrections, he knows what comes next after a "leave it" command if he doesn't stay by my side.

He would love to have a lunge, my God would he, but on the "leave it" command he looks up straight at me now for another "leave it" command, and walks past the stranger/dog like a perfect gentleman. I believe that aggression behaviour is a serious disobediance fault that requires a serious correction which does work to perfection especially with dogs of hard temperaments.

What do you do when a dog couldnt give a crap about that correction?

If my dog has had a brain snap it makes little difference and the only thing I can do is pull her away. Its one of the reasons I dont use a prong (I do not enjoy stringing my reactive dog up by one when the correction has not deterred her), and with a check or martingale I can be yanking that lead til the cows come home if she is in the zone... Usually my only hope is a pre-emptive "NO" which is only about 90% successful.

Im interested in the abandonment theory, but doubt I would ever have the opportunity to try it. Too risky.

Can't really see the risk when there is a 2nd long line attached . If you read the 2nd link I provided it shows you train with the 2nd line and than I gather you don't go any further till you dog is not reacting anymore

[corvus]

I agree with gathering up the slack of the leash, but not to throw it at the dog, but to drop the slack as the dog is about to take an aggressive lunge with a "leave it" command, about turn and administer an almighty Bill Koehler style leash correction. The dog needs to learn quickly that the thought of administering discomfort upon others will cause some discomfort for him/her self.

Thing is, I grew up with a dog that would probably have got worse with that kind of treatment. That's how it all started. Aggression meets with harsh correction equals a dog who once thought something might be bad now KNOWS that something is bad. She never made the connection that her behaviour was what was being corrected. She just knew that she was upset by something and then she had something bad happen to her, so the upsetting thing is now associated with bad stuff and thus becomes far more upsetting instantly and thus triggers a more aggressive response next time she sees it.

And that's just another reason to my list of why I don't base my training methods on corrections. If you want to then that's your business and not mine, but I hope you never find yourself with a dog that thinks corrections justify an aggressive response rather than punishing an aggressive response.

[Staranais]

I agree with gathering up the slack of the leash, but not to throw it at the dog, but to drop the slack as the dog is about to take an aggressive lunge with a "leave it" command, about turn and administer an almighty Bill Koehler style leash correction. The dog needs to learn quickly that the thought of administering discomfort upon others will cause some discomfort for him/her self.

I think abandonment training might be mentioned in the book Feisty Fido by Pat McConnell? Don't quote me on that.

Perhaps it would work for a dog that actually cared if you left, a dog of a more clingy or nervous disposition? Very much doubt it would have worked for my previous dog, he never cared if I was present or not once he was "in the zone" and spoiling for a fight.

For the record, I also had no success giving almighty leash corrections for aggression to my dog (and neither did trainers I consulted). Like Deelee, once my staffy was "in the zone" he simply couldn't care less about any type of physical punishment (and yes, I'm sorry to say we tried some very harsh corrections over the years). If anything, a hard correction razzed him up for the fight even more. Which I guess makes sense, when you think about it - would a staffy that gave up when pain was administered be any use in a dog fight (or fighting rats or bulls, as his more distant ancestors were bred to do?)

I suppose it may have helped if someone with exemplary timing had managed to correct him very harshly before he got even slightly razzed up about other dogs, when he first started to think about getting aggressive, however trainers skilled enough to do that accurately and consistently are few and far between in my experience.

I also wouldn't want to try an almighty correction on a dog who was aggressive because they were fearful, like Corvus's dog. That has the potential to make the situation so much worse, by teaching the dog that he really does have something to be afraid of around other dogs.

Now giving an almighty correction to a dog that's just being an adolescent snot and disobeying you in order to go eyeball some other dog, well perhaps there's some merit in that.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Staranais

[huski]

I was told that the problem you run into when purely relying on corrections to manage aggression is that the next time the dog goes to aggress it simply won't show any of the warning signs that you corrected it for before it attempts to attack another dog.

I certainly know giving one 'almighty leash correction' wouldn't have helped my fear aggressive dog, who was aggressive because he was under confident, correcting/punishing him so heavily would not have helped him feel more confident around other dogs.

I also agree with DeeLee that once some dogs set their sight on another dog the adrenalin rush they experience is too high for them to be affected by a leash correction, even a harsh "almighty" one.

ETA:

I believe that aggression behaviour is a serious disobediance fault that requires a serious correction which does work to perfection especially with dogs of hard temperaments.

When my dog sees another dog and displays aggressive behaviour that is fear driven, IMO it is not as simple as being "serious disobedience". Assuming that one heavy handed method would work to perfection with all dogs who display aggression is simply short sighted, IMO.

Edited July 18, 2009 by huski

[huski]

For the record, I also had no success giving almighty leash corrections for aggression to my dog (and neither did trainers I consulted). Like Deelee, once my staffy was "in the zone" he simply couldn't care less about any type of physical punishment (and yes, I'm sorry to say we tried some very harsh corrections over the years). If anything, a hard correction razzed him up for the fight even more. Which I guess makes sense, when you think about it - would a staffy that gave up when pain was administered be any use in a dog fight (or fighting rats or bulls, as his more distant ancestors were bred to do?)

I suppose it may have helped if someone with exemplary timing had managed to correct him very harshly before he got even slightly razzed up about other dogs, when he first started to think about getting aggressive, however trainers skilled enough to do that accurately and consistently are few and far between in my experience.

I also wouldn't want to try an almighty correction on a dog who was aggressive because they were fearful, like Corvus's dog. That has the potential to make the situation so much worse, by teaching the dog that he really does have something to be afraid of around other dogs.

Now giving an almighty correction to a dog that's just being an adolescent snot and disobeying you in order to go eyeball some other dog, well perhaps there's some merit in that.

Totally agree with your post here, Staranais,