Does This Sound Like Arthritis To You?

[Kelly_Louise]

Regardless of surgery or not, I would be adding the Sasha's Blend and getting him lighter asap anyway. So full steam ahead on those.

Seeing it's a partial tear, I'd probably give these things you mentioned a go first. The worst that can happen is that it will become a full tear - which is painful, but at least you have the surgery option and can move quickly. The best outcome is that it can heal really well and might solve the problem. Who knows? I was under the impression that vet's didn't operate until it was a full tear anyway - but I could be wrong and it might be different depending on who you go to.

I think if you could get him to really rest it for a good few weeks you may have a chance of it healing without surgery. I'm not sure of the statistics, or if people have had long term success with this or how well it heals - so it's worth giving a shot before you put him through surgery.

[huski]

Ok, now speaking as a naive dog gal, please tell me your thoughts on this.

After continuing my research, I have included another option to my list.

As his tear is partial and not full, what do you think about the inclusion of Sasha's blend (or similar) to his diet, weight loss of about 3 - 4 kgs and hydrotherapy 3 times a week? Do you think this would be a viable substitute or option to surgery? We are still getting other opinions from other Vets but thought I would get your thoughts on this prior.

This is the kind of thing that Dr Kilmaten from Animal Options can help you out with, as they are holistic vets and specialise in chiro - so if there is an option other than surgery they will devise a therapy plan for you to follow.

[Tru Borders]

Got home from work not too long ago and decided to let the furries out the back yard for a little leg stretch. Asher ran around like a mad crazy possessed dog!! You wouldnt know anything was wrong..... i tried to stop him.... he was just running and running. Nut case

have 2nd and 3rd opinion appointments booked for this week so we will know what we are definitely going to do by the end of the week.

Because of the separate days off for my and the OH, and the distance, getting to see Dr Kilmarten this week isnt viable Huski but we are planning on doing this if our 2nd and 3rd opinions tell us its a partial tear and surgery is not the only option. Will let you know how we go. I like the thought of a holistic recovery

I feel so much better having you guys here to help me with all these questions and opinions, so thank you again. You have all really been so much help.

[Kelly_Louise]

He really should be kept very quiet at the moment - kind of like he is in recovery from surgery if he has a chance to heal completely. I know it would be very difficult with two dogs (and being a young dog) - but they do not have the same rationality as us and will just keep pushing through pain to run and do normal dog things. All it can take is one wrong landing, one wrong turn and that cruciate could blow.

Hope all goes well with the 2nd and 3rd opinions - and you find someone you feel confident dealing with. Let us know how you go. Surgery isn't something you want to rush into unless it is required for best quality of life in the long term - or if the cruciate problems are due to poor knee confirmation etc.

Be very vigilant and strict with him now - blown cruciates is a very common problem and happen quite easily. To avoid surgery he needs to heal extremely well now while it's still partial and vulnerable.

[Tru Borders]

I immediately regretted opening the gate when I did.

I know I shouldnt have let him go bananas, I had one of those "he's looking good and walking ok" moments.

Took them for a short walk tonight. About 600 metres. Nice and slow just for a sniff around. The Vet said it would be ok as long as it was short. Kelly do you think I should cut the short walk for the time being as well?

Starting Hydro therapy next Thursday and hopefully about 3 times a week after that.

Have some Sasha's blend on the way, should hopefully be here tomorrow.

Do I need to supplement Glucosamine as well?

[Kelly_Louise]

I use Sasha's Blend only - however there are also other brands that include glucosamine as well, or you can supplement it separately. Another one I have used and liked is Joint Guard, however I always go back to Sasha's Blend for palatability.

I don't think you need to cut the short walk. As long as it continues to be slow, short, on lead and sedate it can't hurt too much. If your vet thinks it's okay then do so, but always continue to be on the cautious side as he will try to get away with as much as he can.

I understand what you mean about seeing them looking good and walking better. We did the same thing with Chloe. She had been rested a bit and seemed to be fine - we let her play with my sisters dog, just a bit of running and chasing, and after that she could barely walk and got worse and worse as the adrenalin wore off. I guess it's like us with a muscle or ligament tear - if we continue to keep pushing ourselves and exercising then chances are that tear will get worse. Asher won't show his true pain, and when he does it's because it's quite significant. So he can appear fine but still be in some discomfort due to the small tear.

Did the vet say it was okay to do hydrotherapy at this stage? I"ve not done hydrotherapy before - but personally I would wait until he has been rested a few weeks and hopefully the tear is healed - and then do the hydro to build up strength and support. But again, as I've not done hydrotherapy before it might be perfectly fine - I know of many people that have used it with their dogs in rehabilitation.

[Tru Borders]

The Hydrotherapy (Aquadog) is part of the Vet we are going to see on Friday so I will double check with the Vet then if we are ok to start it. I didnt even think it might be a no go, thanks K.L!

The walks I think I can keep under control. I reckon I could space out a 500 metre walk over about 45 minutes with extra sniffing time and I think this will satisfy a bit of his energy.

I just keep thinking we are lucky to not be going under the knife right now so this helps me to keep him secured and fed less and short walked. It has helped stop my urges to let him out the back.

Will update on Friday after Vet visit.

Thanks again

[Kelly_Louise]

No problems - hopefully you will get some good news and guidance on Friday.

I do know with hydrotherapy during rehab after surgery they will usually wait until the leg has healed sufficiently and then start building back up the muscles etc - that was just my concern when you mentioned it. Although it is low impact etc, if he still has a tear you don't want to risk it by doing too much too soon. But again, the vet is your best guide - these are just my own thoughts from my own experience, so if they say it's a good time to start asap - well they're the experts.

It's always a difficult thing to manage... I can't imagine having to do it with a young dog and I always thank God that Chloe was so adaptable and did what we asked of her (most of the time). We were really lucky with her. You're doing a good job, and heading in the right direction with him so hopefully he heals naturally without the need for surgery.

ETA - if he does need to be rested, instead of doing a 45 minute slow walk, I would break it up to maybe 3 x 15 minute short slow walks throughtout the day instead. 45 minutes at a slow pace can still be strenuous so perhaps more frequent but shorter outings might be better? Just a thought.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Kelly_Louise

[Tru Borders]

Too true K.L. 45 might be too long on his feet. will definitely consider a few short walks instead of one long one

[Tru Borders]

Ok... heres the update.

Asher is booked in for Surgery on August 4th.

After visiting other Veterinarians for opinions and options, we decided that instead of putting off the inevitable, Asher being young and active and likely to tear it completely, also being over 25 kg's, we are going to go ahead with the Surgery now while he's in the best shape possible at this moment.

One of the Vets (the chosen clinic) told us it was a partial tear which had some arthritis which had set in as well. This we all knew, actually, nearly everything we had heard already but this was by far the most equipped, informative and general well being feeling clinic we had been to.

A Specialist from the Gold Coast Veterinary Specialist Services Clinic will be performing the op. The VSS also has all the facilities that I have looked at and thought would be great for Asher's recovery, including a hydro treadmill.

The Vet also told us that swimming would be fine before and after the operation, just small amounts in the up to and just after periods.

He needs to lose about 3 kilos though, so all the inactivity is going to make it hard, but we are going to be as strict as we can when it comes to food portions. At the moment he is getting 500 grams once a day, going to cut it back to 400 grams. Any tips on this anyone?

Bought some carrot and Celery today to use as treats instead on dried Liver and beef. They both liked the Carrot but the celery was a failure!! Gave Apple pieces over the past 2 days and the furrie's love that too! I think they really enjoy the crunchy juicy texture.

Bought a crate today. Its a good size to allow him to move freely, but not run or jump or zoom. Should have it next week which will give us a week to get used to it.

The Vet also said that walks should still continue, but only for 10 minutes. I never realised how much I would miss our daily exercise.

My Sasha's Blend arrived today so will be adding it to their food as of today.

I think that's all I have.....

Actually, K.L, we are using the Tibial Plateau Leveling Procedure.

Took all the others into consideration, but why put a band aid on a knife wound if you know what I mean.

Other methods don't give as much a guarantee as the TPL does so its a no brainer.

[Kelly_Louise]

I agree and think your choice of operation is a good one for Asher's size, with many good results. It's fairly similar to the op Chloe had, and the stats are good, so you can't go too far wrong.

I'm surprised they wanted to go to surgery - but yes, being young and active he is most likely going to injure it further. And if arthritis is already setting in then it's best to move fast than leave it too long I guess. Sounds like you are very comfortable with the surgeon and the clinic - which will come in handy for your stress levels and give you something a bit less to worry over. You seem to have most things ready and organised which is fantastic. I guess you just need to think about your day, and what he will need when he's in recovery and figure a routine that will suit you all and overcome any obstacles that you might face (ie, if he needs to use stairs or slippery floors to go out and toilet then you might want to think how you can safely get him through that and practice it beforehand). Try to keep him off anything slippery or use something to give him stability and try to avoid any stairs if possible. Formulating a safe routine will help and once he recognises what it is he might feel better about being confined as he will be confused with this confinement.

Drop his food back and perhaps give it to him over the day... or give it once and maybe give him one of those big bones that they chew away on and never really get far to occupy him. Not sure on the amount of food - but you know him best and can gauge how he's looking.

I'm surprised about the advice given on walks... although perhaps things have changed. I would most likely not take him too far out of your yard/street to stimulate him too much. I would probably start off with very calm slow walks in your back yard. We were advised not to go on a 'walk' for any amount of time, for quite a few weeks after Chloe's ops. But again, your specialists know best. Give the bones time to heal properly, otherwise they will take longer to mend - try not to rush into hydro too quickly. It will be fantastic for his rehab, but do give his bones time to heal properly.

You might also want to look at some natural remedies that may assist in his recovery. I used some of Robert McDowells remedies like his post operative mix, something to do with bone healing, and rescue remedy to try and keep Chloe calm. I know these kind of things aren't 'proven' to work, but if you feel they may assist in some way you might like to explore it if you know of someone you feel can provide you with some good quality natural remedies.

Sorry, Im just trying to think of all the things we went through so if it's jumbled that's why

But I guess the best advice is to practice what it will be like so he gets used to it, get him into a routine now as best you can seeing that you have a bit of time to play with. Your specialist will be your best friend so as long as you follow the after care instructions they give you, Asher will be fine. You've done great work so far and are very prepared - so things will work out fine, don't worry too much.

ETA: some things went wrong for us in Chloe's recovery no matter how careful we were... her escape attempt, her massive fall at the vets office when she went for follow up xrays, sometimes she jumped up if visitors came (I used to yell at my family to have no visitors so as not to over-stimulate her but they thought I was too obsessive ) etc... and still Chloe came through fine. Asher is young and strong and his bones should heal quickly, then it's a matter of building back up the lost muscle tone.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Kelly_Louise

[Tru Borders]

Was about to ask you if you used rescue remedy! Thought it might be of some help to us. Will be picking some up next week.

I think it was more our decision to go to surgery than the Vet pushing us. Knowing that he has had the injury for at least 5 months (mis-diagnosed initially) made us lean in that direction. It is going to be our only option in the end and I feel much better prepared ahead of time than having to get my shit together if he tore it fully and had to go under straight away.

Stress Levels ....... I dont think anything will help me with that!! I dont have to nurse him out of Anesthetic this time so that will be good (I was a mess after Asher had his pre-molar out and the anesthetic was wearing off).

Obstacles we are working on. We have 2 lots of 3 step stairs in our house, both to and from Asher's favourite rooms. Not sure what we are going to do there yet, but as for the floors, im investing in some cheap rugs. We have floor boards so the house is going to look like a bloody mess with all these rugs and safety things around!

The walks to continue before the operation...... my bad, I just re-read and totally wrote it wrong!

Post Op advice is stay in the one spot for weeks!! Sorry K.L

Hydro is also put off until a few weeks after surgery but our Specialist will advise as recovery goes on.

I couldnt have been so prepared without your advice Kelly, thank you.

[Kelly_Louise]

Oh it's my pleasure - I remember how scary it was for me (btw - rescue remedy may come in handy for you too one drop for Asher, one drop for you...)

I was lucky I could also come here and get advice from the knowledgable people that went there before me... it was great for reassurance, and quite frankly, just a vent when I was frustrated and worried as hell, tired, and my family were fighting me...

As for the stairs... for the first month or so, when he comes out of his confinement area for toilet breaks etc, keep him on lead only and walk him very slowly down the stairs if it's unavoidable. Otherwise, you might want to look at getting a ramp, or making one out of something you have at home. I bought Chloe a PetStep2 ramp (for after her surgery) but she would sit at the bottom watching me show her how it was done, then run off almost laughing at me Never got the hang of it, but thankfully she never needed to use it after her recovery and we kept her off all stairs during her recovery. But some kind of stable ramp might be the way to go. You also need to think about how you are going to get him in and out of the car to and from surgery, follow up consults etc - cause you don't want him jumping. A ramp might also help then (not sure if you can lift him or not) so it might be worth looking at and investing in a good quality one.

Cheap rugs are definitely the way to go... yeah it will look chaotic, but that will be the least of your worries I'm sure!!

Goodness you sound just like me when I was going through it!!! You will have so many things prepared and maybe not even use half of them!! But better to be prepared than not, and Asher will benefit from it.

ETA - thanks for the walking clarification - I understand there is a million things going on in your head - so much info and preparation. Don't envy you right now, but believe me, just keep the end game in mind - cause it will be worth every ounce of sweat.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Kelly_Louise