Does This Sound Like Arthritis To You?

[Tru Borders]

So a while ago when Asher was going through a really bad month (sore leg, itchy skin, broken tooth) he had done something to his back left leg.

It was hard for him to walk on when he first got up but after a little while, if he had gotten a bit of momentum, he seemed to get around on it easier. Off to the Vet (again) and she manipulated his every which way and he had no discomfort or pain at all. We stopped walks for about a week and when we started up again, I noticed that about every 5 or 6 steps his nail on the sore leg would drag a little.

He slowly but surely got all better and before we knew it we were back to full length walks and little runs.

this was about 4 months ago.

So now his back leg is sore again..... actually, its not sore, he just holds it up as if its sore. Yesterday and the day before it seemed quite bad, walking around on 3 legs or just touching it on the ground. I let him in the backyard yesterday and after some movement he seemed a little more at ease, but of course after sitting down for a while its uncomfortable again when he gets up.

I noticed over the last week and a half that I heard the nail drag every so often, but didn't think anything of it.

I think the Vet put him on an anti-inflammatory last time.

What does this sound like to you? What should we do? X-Rays? Chiropractor? Any advice is muchly appreciated.

Edited July 25, 2009 by huskyheaven

[Kelly_Louise]

It sounds like perhaps he has a problem with one of his back legs. We had the same problem before Chloe totally blew both her cruciate ligaments. Intermittent leg problems, we were given anti inflams etc and told to go home and rest her. We were never really informed it could be a cruciate ligament (and back then we knew little about cruciate ligaments) until she blew them and required surgery.

Leg issues should be investigated or dealt with quickly - as joints can deteriorate quickly with arthritis and DJD if not treated.

I would think another trip to the vet is in order - be persistent until you get a diagnosis you are comfortable with.

My young girl Sasha also drags her nails every now and again - I don't see that as too much of a problem... but the holding the leg up certainly says it's somethign more than arthritis to me.

ETA - if he's only barely touchign it to the ground - then it IS sore. Chloe had her leg broken and pinned together under surgery and even she used her leg and I know it must have been damn sore. For it to be an on/off problem - to me sounds like a cruciate tear, maybe not fully torn but at perhaps a partial tear.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Kelly_Louise

[Tru Borders]

Nice info to know K.L thank you so much.

Do we need Xrays to see if it is a cruciate ligament or Arthritis? If xrays show this then I will just go in and ask for xrays without hesitation. I dont want this to go on any longer without a diagnosis.

How is Chloe now after the ops? Did they work for her and is she fully capable of normal activities now?

I have to add that he did not hold his paw/leg off the ground for very long. mainly just after getting up after a long sleep, holding up for about 30 seconds.... still worries me though.

Thanks again for your advice K.L

[Melo]

I noticed with my Samoyed girl after a sleep she was lifting her left back leg and placing down again, after some other medical problems I questioned the vet and he could not find anything wrong with her legs.

Off home she went but it continued and seem to be getting worse, I also noticed the hair thinning on her legs, so off back to the vet we went and I highlighted my issues, he still could not feel any problems but took her in for x-rays.

The x-rays showed her legs were fine, but she had an old injury in her back that was very arthritic, in fact he could not believe how bad it was and she was still walking

Over the years she is getting worse even with medication so I took her to a Chiro that does acupuncture which has given her some relief in her back.

Anyway just thought I would tell you my story, as just don't rule out there is not a problem even if their legs are showing nothing.

[Kelly_Louise]

Three years on after surgery and Chloe is really good. If she over does things, she may have a stiff day every now and then - but generally she is a normal dog (we just avoid really rough play or hectic jumping) and if I don't tell you she has had these leg problems you'd never know. She is 11 now, so arthritis has set in and had before her operations... but generally it's not noticeable much at all and can match it with the best of dogs half her age.

We did have xrays done to confirm torn cruciates - and they will also pick up any arthritic changes in the joints should he have any anyway. Chloe's specialist could also tell my manipulation of the knee and joints as well - although Chloe did not show signs of discomfort either but there were obviously problems there.

I'm not sure what others would do, but I know that if I had suspicions of leg problems again, I would want xrays sooner rather than later as I am the type that wants to know what I'm dealing with and get treatment started asap to minimise damage. Unfortunately Chloe's torn cruciates were diagnosed way too late and was so damaged her meniscus also had to be removed (which is like the buffer shock absorber between joints).

Hard to say, but being persistent with your vet to find the answers would be my best advice.

How old is Asher and has he had any obvious leg injuries before?

[Tru Borders]

so much info I really needed thank you K.L and Melo.

Asher is 3 years old and other than the probs we had not too long ago as mentioned in OP, nothing else.

Going to Vet tomorrow. Does Asher have to have a general anaesthetic for Xrays?

[Kelly_Louise]

Yes generally they will go under for xrays. 3 does sound young for bad arthritis - especially if he hasn't had any obvious leg injury or trauma. But I guess not unheard of... arthritis is just nasty and indiscriminate

I think your vet should investigate further seeing that it is a recurring thing, so best be guided by them. Just don't let them shrug you off if you feel something is not right. Unfortunately we let that happen as we believed it was arthritis, and were under the impression that it was arthritis for a long time... till it got to the point where Chloe couldn't get up to toilet and would hold her arm out for me to help her up (and trust me you've not seen anything more heart shattering than a helpless cattle dog asking for help to get up).

If it should be just a partial tear of the cruciate, then it's best to know as it can be repairable without surgery.

Regardless of what it turns out to be, it's best to know what you are dealing with so you know what his limitations are to best keep him safe and pain free.

Best of luck and let us know how you go!

[Tru Borders]

OMG K.L your story about Chloe has teared me up Poor girl! I couldn't bear to see that..... Im so glad she is so much better today.

Thanks again for all your advice and info. Sometimes you just need that little extra info from others to make sure you get answers.

Will be sure to let you know how we go.

[Tru Borders]

Ok so we're back from the Vets and Asher has a partial torn cruciate ligament.

Kelly thank you for your advice and words of wisdom.

We are going to get second options but so far our Vet has said that we can get a procedure done where they take out a piece of bone to allow for better joint movement. there's another part to this procedure but I cannot remember.

2nd option was to put in surgical strapping/tape/not sure of name where the ligament is or was and this acts as a ligament would normally. Chances of bad arthritis in the later years is on the cards.

3rd option is a new procedure where a metal plate is put into his leg which stabilises it and allows it to move freely as a perfect ligament should.

first and second options looking around $1500

third option $2000 to $3000

I have probably left out some details as I almost passed out in the examination room. I had a hot flush and had to leave! The Vet nurse asked if it was from a needle and I wanted to tell her that growing up on a farm has given me great tolerance to pretty much any type of animal procedures, but I was busy breathing!!

Ok, so he is on anti inflammatories for now with no exercising for a while. Im gonna have 2 hyper Huskies!

If anyone has any more advice based on prognosis please post.

Thanks in advance.

[dogbesotted]

well now you at least know what is going on.

do you know who is doing the surgery?

I have heaps of respect for Geoff Robbins.... he is a specialist in such procedures. My vet always had goeff come to do that kind of surgery for the bog breeds.

I beleive from what i have been told that the rpognosis is excellent.... but you must follow the post op directions for the best results.

cheers and good luck

\

Helen

[huski]

HH - if you haven't already, I'd be taking Asher to see Dr Kilmarten at Animal Options. They are in Ormeau so shouldn't be too far a drive from the Gold Coast.

http://www.animaloptions.com.au/

[Kelly_Louise]

Personally I'd stay away from option 2 and the scar build up/replacement ligament techniques- they are not as good for bigger/heavier dogs... and the last thing you want is to have to have further operations to keep repairing it.

The first option sounds pretty much like what Chloe had done... the leg is in effect broken, a 'wedge' of bone is taken out and is repositioned to create a more stable knee slope, and then pinned back together with a metal plate and screws.

Not sure on the third option - does it use a spring or something in there? There was something being trialled when Chloe had hers done, but I didn't want to take the risk with there being no formal results at the time, and to me it sounded like there were too many parts in there that could potentially go wrong and cause problems and Chloe was too old to be put through the wringer. But not knowing what it involves and what the stats are on recovery it's something you would need to check out first.

For a partial tear they are not usually so quick to go to surgery - usually they will wait until it's a full tear to see if it can heal itself (although not sure if they ever go back to 100%). I would probably get a second opinion and perhaps do xrays - or ask to be referred to a specialist who is better equipped to a) handle the surgery and aftercare and b) guide you to the best procedure. If you feel okay with your vet now though, do a bit of research on Google and you will start to understand what is involved and what is your best option.

Hopefully it may not come to surgery though - although being so young it will be hard to keep them rested and prevent re-injuring. Also be aware, that a high percentage of dogs will blow their other cruciate within 18 months of the first going (if they haven't already blown both)... ;)

At least you know what the problem is now and have options. Good luck keeping Asher quiet

Keep us updated please, and if you have any other questions please let me know.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Kelly_Louise

[Tru Borders]

well now you at least know what is going on.

do you know who is doing the surgery?

I have heaps of respect for Geoff Robbins.... he is a specialist in such procedures. My vet always had goeff come to do that kind of surgery for the bog breeds.

I beleive from what i have been told that the rpognosis is excellent.... but you must follow the post op directions for the best results.

cheers and good luck

Helen

Thanks Helen. Is Geoff Robbins on the Gold Coast? We have a friend who knows a Vet named Geoff. Our friend is going to give him a buzz to see if he can help us out with advice and treatment.

Post Op is most important to me, its gonna be so hard though. Damn active dogs!

HH - if you haven't already, I'd be taking Asher to see Dr Kilmarten at Animal Options. They are in Ormeau so shouldn't be too far a drive from the Gold Coast.

http://www.animaloptions.com.au/

Thanks Huski. Have you been to see Dr Kilmarten before? Is there any particular reason you recommended this practice (just for options sakes :cool: )?

Personally I'd stay away from option 2 and the scar build up/replacement ligament techniques- they are not as good for bigger/heavier dogs... and the last thing you want is to have to have further operations to keep repairing it.

The first option sounds pretty much like what Chloe had done... the leg is in effect broken, a 'wedge' of bone is taken out and is repositioned to create a more stable knee slope, and then pinned back together with a metal plate and screws.

Not sure on the third option - does it use a spring or something in there? There was something being trialled when Chloe had hers done, but I didn't want to take the risk with there being no formal results at the time, and to me it sounded like there were too many parts in there that could potentially go wrong and cause problems and Chloe was too old to be put through the wringer. But not knowing what it involves and what the stats are on recovery it's something you would need to check out first.

For a partial tear they are not usually so quick to go to surgery - usually they will wait until it's a full tear to see if it can heal itself (although not sure if they ever go back to 100%). I would probably get a second opinion and perhaps do xrays - or ask to be referred to a specialist who is better equipped to a) handle the surgery and aftercare and b) guide you to the best procedure. If you feel okay with your vet now though, do a bit of research on Google and you will start to understand what is involved and what is your best option.

Hopefully it may not come to surgery though - although being so young it will be hard to keep them rested and prevent re-injuring. Also be aware, that a high percentage of dogs will blow their other cruciate within 18 months of the first going (if they haven't already blown both)... :p

At least you know what the problem is now and have options. Good luck keeping Asher quiet

Keep us updated please, and if you have any other questions please let me know.

Unfortunately I am not too sure how that 3rd option works. The Vet had gone over so many things and I was trying to take it all in and deal with my hot flush :D

When he drew it on the board it looked like a t shape implant/metal plate that works in a hinge way. thats all i remember dammit!! but I knew a 2nd opinion was going to be a definite so im sure after I do my research and go back to my Vet I will have more understanding.

He has been quite good this arvo. Had a bit of a run around which i struggled to stop :D but tried my hardest to make sure it was smooth running..... Nooki loves to pull him down during play by snapping his back legs in her teeth ... this will be our biggest obstacle.

Thanks again for all your help ladies and gents.

Im off to do some researching and I will come back with questions for y'all ;)

[huski]

I haven't see Dr Kilmarten myself but I have used another vet that works at his practice and she's fantastic :D

I also know many DOLers and doggy people who see Dr Kilmarten specifically for injuries as he's got a very good reputation

[Tru Borders]

I haven't see Dr Kilmarten myself but I have used another vet that works at his practice and she's fantastic

I also know many DOLers and doggy people who see Dr Kilmarten specifically for injuries as he's got a very good reputation

Thanks Lovie. Have added Dr Kilmarten to my options list.

Have been doing some research and now totally understand the surgical options we have. Seems surgery is highly recommended with dogs weighing over 15 kgs due to re-occurence.

Its going to be a long healing road afterwards. Think I might take a few weeks off afterwards..... just to make sure we dont have to fork out thousands more for "my mum's an idiot and didnt look after me properly" accidents.

tis funny how hindsight works.

I was going to insure the dogs about 5 months ago. I didnt.

Cruciate Ligament claims have a 6 month waiting period.

Looks like my well earned dollars shall be spent for now.

Guess who's getting Pet Insurance tomorrow?

[Kelly_Louise]

Yes it's always the way...

Glad you have a thorough understanding of the surgeries and are feeling confident... that's the first step.

I would also recommend taking some time of post op. I took a couple of weeks for both Chloe's ops, plus i was lucky enough to have mum and dad at home so they took over when I couldn't. I won't lie to you... it's tough. I was so tired (I woke constantly at EVERY single noise, thinking it was Chloe caught up, fallen, slipped etc), worried and stressed I thought I was going to have a breakdown Then I was up at 4amish to toilet her, then I'd curl up and nap with her so she didn't feel alone - in the middle of winter... But you know, as long as you are prepared for what is coming and have as much as you can ready and organised (a crate, pen, fenced area) somewhere where he can't slip, trip, run or jump etc. Oh and start making a list of boredom busters... new tricks, long life chews etc. Also, when/if he does have surgery he will be needing alot less food due to inactivity, otherwise they tend to put on weight which is a big no no with these surgeries. He needs to be as light as possible.

I agree, for bigger dogs (I feel also) surgery is the best long term option (providing it is the correct type of surgery for dog) for best quality of life. YES, it does take some time out for recovery... Chloe was out for approx 9 or 10 months (her old bones healed slowly) and I copped ALOT of flak... but it was worth all of it and she has had a fantastic quality of life since and we don't have to constantly worry and monitor her legs (only her Cushings disease now ). Most of the time we've forgotten she once struggled to get up... that sad memory I have has turned into a happy one. The day I saw Chloe toddle off on her first official walk since recovery was such a happy day I cried.

I have a shirt that says... Surgery $3500, xrays $500, physio $30/hr etc etc etc - seeing my dog run again - PRICELESS. And it was.

[Tru Borders]

Thanks again for your straight forward advice Kelly Louise.

I have a fair understanding of the hardship we will face after the op, but I have a question for you regarding it.

We have a great area for our kids that is small and fenced so that is sorted, but, and here goes stupid question .... How long before Chloe could walk by herself and how long before you felt comfy leaving her along by herself?

Im thinking of taking 3 weeks off and then working nights for a few weeks after that so I can be here during the day and hubby at night. im figuring he will have his leg bandaged/cast for a little while. Could Chloe get around ok within 48 hours?

[Kelly_Louise]

Chloe was walking as soon as we picked her up - actually as soon as she woke from the op. She's a tough bugger. With or without the cast she walked pretty much straight away. For her first op she came home with no cast (not sure why)... on the second she came home with a cast on - but chewed it off that night (and yes here I was cutting the rest of it off at 4am in the morning, in winter, with blunt scissors . On her first night home from her first op, we left her to sleep in her little pen (it's like a crate) and when I got up in the morning she was down the backyard napping... she just hadn't been used to confinement and had crawled her way under 2 lots of secure chicken wire - with a 'broken' leg and stitches. To this day we still dont know how she did it...

For the first 2 - 4 weeks I would keep him strictly confined in a small area. No walking on his own, and toilet on lead only (maybe a slow little walk around the yard on lead only for a short time) then back in confinement. To release boredom on the weekends when I would take chloe to toilet I would just lie her down in a sunny piece of grass and sit with her, just watch the world go by. After the first month we let her wander in her own little pen always under supervision during the day (it was about 3 x 5m with a small area of grass to toilet) but out of that pen was still on lead only. Still have to watch them as at this time they are starting to feel better and want to jump and do normal things. But it gave her a little bit of freedom and she could move and lie where she wanted. However, we were lucky that chloe was 8 and was not hyper anymore, and had no other dogs to convince her to try and play. She really did adapt to her confinement - probably didn't like it, but she coped better than i would have ever expected and learnt to deal with it all.

Her first leg took about 12-16 weeks to fully heal - it was very slow to mend the break. After that it was straight in for the other leg op. That took the more usual 8ish weeks to heal. When the vet gave us the all clear, she was then allowed free reign of her yard. We took it slow on walks and built her up - don't let them just get straight back into it - I gave her muscles time to strengthen and rebuild to support the surgery. Rehab with physio etc is usually recommended however we did it ourselves.

But your vet will guide you about what you should and should not be doing at all stages. Never be afraid to ask them, no question can be too silly. They need xrays at regular intervals after the op, so they will monitor and let you know how the healing is going and what your dog is now capable of.

It's hard work, but the other side is well worth it - and I was such a worry wart which didn't help (actually I think my family called me 'anal')

[huski]

Thanks again for your straight forward advice Kelly Louise.

I have a fair understanding of the hardship we will face after the op, but I have a question for you regarding it.

We have a great area for our kids that is small and fenced so that is sorted, but, and here goes stupid question .... How long before Chloe could walk by herself and how long before you felt comfy leaving her along by herself?

Im thinking of taking 3 weeks off and then working nights for a few weeks after that so I can be here during the day and hubby at night. im figuring he will have his leg bandaged/cast for a little while. Could Chloe get around ok within 48 hours?

Hey HH - is Asher crate trained at all? You might want to consider getting him one now so he can get used to it before the op.

Micha loves his crate, and whilst I'm sure not all Sibes will be like this, didn't even need proper crate training - he sleeps in his for hours and was happy in there for ages when I took him to a training seminar.

[Tru Borders]

K.L - Thanks for your account of the post-op experiences.

It really helps me plan things a whole lot more. Chloe sounds like she was such a good girl through it all.

Huski, Asher is not crate trained. I was actually thinking last night about this. He is used to being in an area that is about 6x6 so it wont be too hard to cut him down to a little smaller area, but yep, the crate training will be fun. ALthough I am planning to take 3 weeks off after the op and I know he will just be by my side anyway so I guess thats my comforting thought.

Ok, now speaking as a naive dog gal, please tell me your thoughts on this.

After continuing my research, I have included another option to my list.

As his tear is partial and not full, what do you think about the inclusion of Sasha's blend (or similar) to his diet, weight loss of about 3 - 4 kgs and hydrotherapy 3 times a week? Do you think this would be a viable substitute or option to surgery? We are still getting other opinions from other Vets but thought I would get your thoughts on this prior.