Are Teeth Ever Okay?

[corvus]

What about the school of thought that says you should not concentrate on teaching a pup not to bite at all so much as how gentle they have to be with the expectation that they will eventually grow out of it? When should they have grown out of it by?

[poodlefan]

What about the school of thought that says you should not concentrate on teaching a pup not to bite at all so much as how gentle they have to be with the expectation that they will eventually grow out of it? When should they have grown out of it by?

My response would be "does this achieve results"? My guess is that for the majority of trainers, it would be sending confusing messages to the dog. It's hard to be consistent when when the message "no biting" becomes "no biting unless you a gentle". How hard is "gentle" to a growing dog who's ability to bite hard is increasing as it grows?

I have to say I've met dogs that never "grew out of it". Being mouthed by a large adolescent dog that hasn't learned bite inhibition hurts. It has to be taught before adult teeth are in and jaw muscles really start developing.

When a dog puts its mouth on a person, that can be badly misconstrued. Add excitement and limited bite inhibiton and you have an incident that could be reported as a dog bite. Why put your dog at risk when there is an alternative?

Edited July 16, 2009 by poodlefan

[huski]

What about the school of thought that says you should not concentrate on teaching a pup not to bite at all so much as how gentle they have to be with the expectation that they will eventually grow out of it? When should they have grown out of it by?

I can only speak for myself and my limited experience, but I prefer to teach the pup no biting/mouthing on me at all. Teaching them biting/mouthing is ok as long as their gentle, then hoping they will grow out of it, sounds a bit backwards to me I've met adult dogs who still bite/mouth because their owners thought they would grow out of it but they never did and as the dog became bigger and stronger it became a real problem.

With Daisy I would redirect her to a toy she was allowed to mouth, I found it helpful to not only teach her what she couldn't do but also teach her what she could do.

[Fevah]

Meh.

My dogs mouth my hands, but only gently. I assume I wouldn't allow this if they were bigger. They don't do it to anyone else, and I believe because I have taught them what is acceptable 'pressure' that is the reason they play so well together. I know, I know - it goes back to the you wouldn't allow your dog to do it if it were bigger, well I can't really comment on that because I've never had a medium/large sized dog.

[MolassesLass]

What about the school of thought that says you should not concentrate on teaching a pup not to bite at all so much as how gentle they have to be with the expectation that they will eventually grow out of it? When should they have grown out of it by?

My response would be "does this achieve results"? My guess is that for the majority of trainers, it would be sending confusing messages to the dog. It's hard to be consistent when when the message "no biting" becomes "no biting unless you a gentle". How hard is "gentle" to a growing dog who's ability to bite hard is increasing as it grows?

I believe you can teach a dog bite inhibition and I believe I have done it in the past with the dogs whom I would play fight with.

[Cosmolo]

I don't believe humans are the best teachers of bite inhibition for a start. I think alot of bite inhibition is learned when a pup is with their litter and mother. My dogs have very soft mouths except one (and its not an issue as she doesn't mouth/ bite anything but toys) and all have been raised with a no mouthing on people rule.

I also think this concept can be very confusing as what you consider to be too hard will always vary- depending on where the dog mouths, what clothing you have on and who you are- child, adult, elderly person- i think this is VERY confusing for a dog, especially because you will then change the rules when the dog is an adult.

Dogs don't grow out of behaviours that become rewarding. In the same way i wouldn't grow out of sitting on a certain chair if someone gave me $100 every time- each time i wanted $$ i would go and sit on the chair.

ETA ML- do you think you are teaching true bite inhibition though- or that you have just taught the dog in that specific situation that mouthing hard ends the game? To me, this is difference to bite inhibition and the dog having a soft mouth

Edited July 16, 2009 by Cosmolo

[persephone]

I just remembered an exception to my rule-- my daneX deerhound, Kieran had a habit of gently holding us by the wrist and walking that way with us....no pressure..no marks

I remember one day in town, a crowded mall..and a poor woman who suddenly was taken by the hand and 'escorted along'

Luckily she thought it was very cute... if a 45kg, metre high brindle boof can be cute

That was the only time he did it to a stranger.

he never used mouth/teeth on humans at any other time...

[Staranais]

What about the school of thought that says you should not concentrate on teaching a pup not to bite at all so much as how gentle they have to be with the expectation that they will eventually grow out of it? When should they have grown out of it by?

I think that was Ian Dunbar's idea, wasn't it? Or perhaps I'm just confused.

I think the idea was more of gradually shaping a softer and softer bite, rather than the dog just growing out of it by himself. I wouldn't call the method unfair, unless all of shaping is unfair, since all of shaping involves changing criteria on the dog like this. Have no idea if it's effective, though.

[MolassesLass]

ETA ML- do you think you are teaching true bite inhibition though- or that you have just taught the dog in that specific situation that mouthing hard ends the game? To me, this is difference to bite inhibition and the dog having a soft mouth

I have no idea what I taught in trainers language, I don't waste time thinking about stuff that works. I never had to end the game once it was taught - I was simply NEVER mouthed too hard during our game and I was never mouthed at any other time nor was anyone else.

Perhaps the term "bite inhibition" means something other than what I think, so change my statement to: I do believe I can "achieve results" and I believe I have "achieved results" with the past dogs whom I would play fight with.

[corvus]

I also think this concept can be very confusing as what you consider to be too hard will always vary- depending on where the dog mouths, what clothing you have on and who you are- child, adult, elderly person- i think this is VERY confusing for a dog, especially because you will then change the rules when the dog is an adult.

Maybe that's why dogs "grow out of it". Having just seen that Kivi was finding it tricky to maintain his inhibition during a boisterous game and eventually decided on his own to stop mouthing I wonder if some dogs just give up trying to be super gentle with people and stop biting on their own.

I was told by several people to concentrate on teaching my puppy not to bite hard rather than not to bite at all. It was kind of an exercise in shaping but over several months. As his jaws strengthened and his adult teeth came in he got more feedback on what was too hard and adjusted. And yes, Ian Dunbar was one of those people who talked about inhibition rather than the blanket no teeth rule.

I was thinking that with Penny I had taught her not to bite at all, but now that I think about it I realise I didn't stop her mouthing. She just grew out of it. She wouldn't dream of putting teeth on skin until she got old and sore and blind. It took my mother's dog some 3 years to grow out of it, but she doesn't mouth anymore. My mum's Sheltie had been taught not to by her breeder, but just recently she's come out of her shell quite a bit and has been mouthing gently from time to time. Never hard. I wonder if she will grow out of it.

I guess I'm a little dubious about all this talk about not changing the rules on dogs. I change rules all the time. I make mistakes and fix them, or I decided that he was old enough to be capable of a little more restraint and began to insist on it, or something that started out as no big deal intensifies and has to be addressed. I'm not afraid of admitting when I've made a mistake, and I think there have been times when I've let Kivi mouth when I shouldn't have, but equally, the way I tend to approach animals when I have that luxury is to tell them what I like and don't like and let them choose what they want to do. Within reason. I default to that when I'm not thinking very hard.

Next time I get a puppy I think I would do it the same way, but come down on them earlier than I did with Kivi. Ultimately I don't want an adult dog that mouths, but nor do I want to suppress them more than is necessary. Kivi has stopped doing most of the mouthy things he used to do as a pup, but I don't think he grew out of them. I just gradually decreased my tolerance for mouthing as he got bigger and older. In the scheme of confusing things we put dogs through, I think it was one of the less confusing things he's handled. As opposed to, say, OH and I using different words and different ways of signalling for commands.

[Cosmolo]

Yes but why would you set things up where you know you will change the rules? Thats very different to changing things because you make mistakes or because circumstances change.

I think the other thing is that some dogs would be more forgiving with this than others. Some dogs will be much more difficult to stop mouthing and do not self inhibit and then stop as they get older. This is particularly true of dogs who are bred to use their mouths in some way- they find it much more difficult to switch it off as adults if it is allowed as puppies. I believe in giving dogs an outlet to use their mouth- just not on me.

To each their own but i don't believe the softness of my dogs mouths and bite inhibition has anything to do with whether i let them mouth a person or not. I think its safer for the vast majority of people AND the vast majority of dogs to teach no mouthing.

[Nekhbet]

I think the idea was more of gradually shaping a softer and softer bite, rather than the dog just growing out of it by himself. I wouldn't call the method unfair, unless all of shaping is unfair, since all of shaping involves changing criteria on the dog like this.

dogs cannot think in degrees. Its black or white and this is where you get those people that say 'oh he never did that before' when the dog got over excited and chomped. It is unfair as many people cannot get this right, become frustrated or do it to varying degress and by 6 months mouthy excitable pup is in the pound.

dogs do NOT spend their whole lives mouthing each other either. Puppies learn quickly not to nip other dogs. Dogs do not 'grow out of' behaviors unless they are so soft that just ignoring it will extinguish it, and that is a rare puppy.

when I play sometimes the dogs will open their mouthes at my hand etc but NEVER put my hand in their mouth or even gently mouthe. Its not acceptable you are not a toy to the dog and there are plenty of other ways to play.

[MolassesLass]

dogs do NOT spend their whole lives mouthing each other either.

Do you mean they don't mouth at all as adults or you just mean they don't mouth all the time?

I ask because my dogs (all adults) regularly play what I would call a mouthing game with each other. They love to roll about snapping at each other, play grabs of the neck and front legs, play growling and so on. Though I don't recommend humans allowing mouthing games, I did think it was a normal dog behaviour.