Slow Sits

[Seita]

DD: I think that would be a mistake, as it would compromise your training in drive.

K9: Not always, depends on many variables but loosing drive doesn't go hand in hand with using an e collar, unless you want it to.

DD: You cannot combine the two methods. (unless you are aiming to quell very high drive)

K9: You absolutely can, done it guzillions of times.

S: Don't really see the advantage over using low-stim e-collar over a verbal bridge though, when the dog is right beside you?

K9: Advantage is that you can use stim for longer period of time.

DD: My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary.

K9: I do find that people say the word "drive" and being too unspecific, big corrections increase drive, that's drive is avoidance...

Seita: This is why I haven't wanted to use correction up until now and why I was thinking an ecollar on low stim might achieve what I'm after better than a leash correction.

K9: Your not trying to stop something so I wouldn't go for the correction just yet. I haven't seen your dog in a while but I would guess it looks something like.

Your heeling along & she maintains eye contact, you stop & she increases focus & crouches to an almost sit & as time passes, her bum slowly touches the ground.

Does it look like that?

YES YES YES!!! That's exactly what it looks like!

But since I started giving her the nrm and stepped away from her as soon as she start crouching and didn't have her bum on the ground immediately she's gotten a lot faster on getting her bum down.

Shall definitely shoot you an email!

[JulesP]

Try doing very definite, firm stops for a while. Really stomp down whichever foot you bring up last and don't move forward until she is sitting.

[Steve K9Pro]

S: I'm not about to go out and buy an ecollar just to fix sits, I think that's overkill in a big way.

K9: I agree, may help with many things but not needed for this problem I don't think.

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K9: As I said before, many triallers do use e collars, correction collars etc, just not so many of them talk about it openly. There are many drive problems that can be greatly assisted with the use of the e collar, a possessive monster of a dog that is becoming rank & will not give up the tug can be greatly improved by the use if the stim for one scenario.

A dog that has had drive rewards of perhaps chasing another animal can have those particular drive rewards de valued by the use of the e collar, & his can also raise the value for the desired prey itme by displaying the contrast.

These are two common examples but they dont apply to Seita but worth mentioning also.

[Steve K9Pro]

S: YES YES YES!!! That's exactly what it looks like!

But since I started giving her the nrm and stepped away from her as soon as she start crouching and didn't have her bum on the ground immediately she's gotten a lot faster on getting her bum down.

K9: Then I know what's wrong, the technique your using will give you results for a short time only & it usually will raise other weak areas of training.

I will send you the fix via email

[Lab_Rat]

I have read this thread with great interest as Im at the very beginning of what Im sure is going to be one hell of a journey Trying to trial my kelpie & ridgy in the obedience ring.

Anyway I have a couple of ultra dumb questions - please be kind, I dont get out much :D

What is an NRM? Is it a NO REWARD MARKER? If so, what is this?? And how is it done?

Is there a list of all these acronyms you obedience buffs use? I feel quite in the dark when Im reading threads but have no idea what different words and letters mean

I dont get to my dog club on a regular basis, so are there any good books or DVDs or DOLers that may be of help??

Thanks, and good luck Seita!

Rat

[Seita]

Hay Labrat! Good luck on your journey into trialling it can be very rewarding and of course incredibly frustrating at times!!

Yes a NRM is a no reward marker - it's a neutral word that the dog learns to mean "you didn't get it so you won't get a reward but try again". In my dogs' world their nrm is "whoops" and if my dog then corrects herself and gets it right she gets a "yes" which means she will be getting paid. You can use any words you like.

[Lab_Rat]

Of course!!! Thanks Seita - seems I did learn that somewhere along the way, just didnt know what it was called! I NEED to start using it I think, specially with the Kelpie and her stands - sometimes she gets it, others not. Usually at training she forgets what it means .

Rat

[dogdude]

K9: As is your right to that opinion, but there are many 200 dogs out there that are using e collars. The NRM is not a correction but a communication tool that helps guide the dog. NRMS used the right way increase drive in many cases.

Hi K9

I have never claimed that stim collars used as nrms kill drive.

I highly doubt there are many top triallers in the ANKC comp that use stim collars.

The "top" high scoring trainers are scarce on the ground anyway. The same old names always seem to pop up on the winners lists. (in Melb anyway)

My whole point on the topic of Aversively used methods versus prey drive, was that the prey drive will be reduced as a result. At the time, I did not mention a stim collar.

My experience in marking motion has worked for me, and I do not have a crouching dog.

Ivan B also does it. You can still delay the reward until they complete the exercise, or use a nrm.

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi K9

I have never claimed that stim collars used as nrms kill drive.

K9: After reading the thread I just replied to set things straight where I thought they weren't. Your posts about not being able to use e collars & training in drive were incorrect.

I highly doubt there are many top triallers in the ANKC comp that use stim collars.

The "top" high scoring trainers are scarce on the ground anyway. The same old names always seem to pop up on the winners lists. (in Melb anyway)

K9: Whilst you doubt it, I know it.

DD: My whole point on the topic of Aversively used methods versus prey drive, was that the prey drive will be reduced as a result. At the time, I did not mention a stim collar.

K9: well the whole post just below doesn't read that way.

might be time to invest in an e-collar, I've wanted one for a while...

I think that would be a mistake, as it would compromise your training in drive.

You cannot combine the two methods. (unless you are aiming to quell very high drive)

Do you have the Balabanov dvds? He talks about marking early to improve speed, and it has helped speed up other areas of my training.

K9: At times with some dogs marking early creates the exact problem Sieta has, so it is always different strokes based on the actual dog & actual problem.

DD: My experience in marking motion has worked for me, and I do not have a crouching dog.

Ivan B also does it. You can still delay the reward until they complete the exercise, or use a nrm.

K9: Ivan also uses prong collars...

It used to be quite common for the trainer to multiple pop a prong collar to build intensity or drive, the tool is but a tool, they can be used to communicate, correct, punish, add consequence or devalue certain behaviours or rewards, ruling them out in fear of losing drive means you my not have full grasp of the way tools can be used & may be missing some crucial knowledge on dog training.

[dogdude]

It used to be quite common for the trainer to multiple pop a prong collar to build intensity or drive, the tool is but a tool, they can be used to communicate, correct, punish, add consequence or devalue certain behaviours or rewards, ruling them out in fear of losing drive means you my not have full grasp of the way tools can be used & may be missing some crucial knowledge on dog training.

Like I keep saying, I am quite well aware that you can use these tools as nrms in drive training, or to quell it. I have never argued that point. In fact, I used a correction collar in the learning of her drive control when she initially refused to let go to re-start the game.

After training only one dog using prey drive, I do not claim to know more than you about the subject, (and probably never will) but I do have an understanding of the basics.

[ness]

I can tell you the top triallers I know who seem to be cleaning up wherever they travel to do not use ecollars .

[Steve K9Pro]

DD: Like I keep saying, I am quite well aware that you can use these tools as nrms in drive training, or to quell it. I have never argued that point. In fact, I used a correction collar in the learning of her drive control when she initially refused to let go to re-start the game.

K9: The multiple popping I am speaking of was quite high to increase adrenalin through pain, dogs can work in many ways quite an amazing animal really.

After training only one dog using prey drive, I do not claim to know more than you about the subject, (and probably never will) but I do have an understanding of the basics.

K9: There are so many ways to utilise drive that you (well I) just never stop learning better ways to get things working.

N: I can tell you the top triallers I know who seem to be cleaning up wherever they travel to do not use ecollars

K9: I ran a workshop about 5 years ago, there were 42 attendees, all of the compete with their dogs. I asked for a show of hands who had ever used an e collar, 0/42.

By the end of that day, 31/42 approached me saying the did use them but didn't like to say they did in public.

I still work with many top triallers who use e collars, but just say they dont, thats not saying the ones that you know Ness are in those same people, just my experience is that what people say isnt always what they do.

[ness]

Hmm fair call K9 but the few I am thinking of I have also trained with and I am positively certain they don't use them.