Slow Sits

[Kavik]

I think I understand where dogdude is coming from (feel free to say if I am wrong though )

I think it is not that ecollar training is not 'good enough' for a trial dog, but that it may be overkill. The dog is not taking off, the dog will recall and will sit, not a life/death situation, the OP just wants a faster response to try to get a perfect score. Dog is biddable. Doesn't seem to be a problem that requires a radical solution such as buying an expensive piece of equipment that uses escape from unpleasant stimuli to get results. Seems more like a communication/anticipation problem.

[Cosmolo]

I don't disagree Kavik hence why my first post suggests randomising exercises first and if that doesn't work, giving a well timed correction. There was other good advice that followed from others which I didn't feel the need to add to.

dogdude, i have trialled and didn't like it for various reasons. (am i one of the 'juinior' trainers you refer to?) We also only get 3 out of 4 Sundays without work (yes every Saturday for the whole year except Xmas and Easter is booked) so time is definitely a factor as well. If it was something i loved, I would make the time- but its not. I do definitely agree that others know more about trialling than i do but i don't think that makes my opinion invalid.

I have dogs in my classes whose owners aim to trial and i don't train them any differently- i just remind them of some of the trial etiquette required and they also attend other clubs to make sure they know ALL the ins and outs as there are some i do not know.

I simply disagreed that you can't use training in drive and an e collar- i did not recommend the OP get one to fix this small training problem!

Oh, and geat to hear that Seita's round Ptlomy saw was excellent!

Edited July 19, 2009 by Cosmolo

[Erny]

I think I understand where dogdude is coming from (feel free to say if I am wrong though )

I think it is not that ecollar training is not 'good enough' for a trial dog, but that it may be overkill. The dog is not taking off, the dog will recall and will sit, not a life/death situation, the OP just wants a faster response to try to get a perfect score. Dog is biddable. Doesn't seem to be a problem that requires a radical solution such as buying an expensive piece of equipment that uses escape from unpleasant stimuli to get results. Seems more like a communication/anticipation problem.

Thing is, I covered that in a previous post by explaining that I wasn't saying she had to have an e-collar to do it, but simply responding to things that could work with her problem. E-collar mention was after drive work suggestion. Then of course came the suggestion by Dogdude that e-collar work will knock drive out of the dog - and as a blanket type statement that's something I disagree about.

It was afterward that Dogdude suggested that pro-trainers who don't trial shouldn't give advice to people who do trial with their dogs. I don't really understand that attitude, apart from in matters such as questions about trial ring etiquette, if it is that they don't know it.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Erny

[Seita]

Oh dear what have I started!?!

I'm not about to go out and buy an ecollar just to fix sits, I think that's overkill in a big way. I have wanted to get one for some time to sort out some other issues (not trialling issues - chasing the postie issues ). However I was thinking of possible ways to correct the problem at hand and if I was going to get an ecollar then why not use that.

As an update we had reasonable good sits again today at today's trial, we had two but I think they were a footwork issue as I stopped quite suddenly on a funny angle going around the figure of eight. But the rest were good and she got her first ever perfect score for a recall - usually loses points for a slow sit at the start and a sloppy finish so I was pretty happy.

At this stage adjusting when I am using the nrm and ensuring my foot work is spot on seems to be doing the job but I think it will take a bit longer to correct the issue.

I appreciate all the responses and if you keep them coming I'm sure others will benefit from the advice!

[dogdude]

My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary

This is my supposed "blanket statement" that you say is untrue? It was made in response to a quote that used correction collar and e-collar in the same sentence, so one could only assume that the op wanted to use it in an aversive manner.....for a relatively easy problem to fix using her already established drive training. Previous to this post, I had not even mentioned an e-collar let alone made comment on whether various levels of stim may change the validity of my post. That was dreamed up by you guys.

Secondly........I never made suggestion that pro trainers should not attempt to give advice for trialling questions. What I did say was that you often question highly experienced triallers

regarding subjects that you have never even trained for. These experienced triallers would never dream of chimming in on a post to do with behavioral problems, let alone disagree with something a pro has posted.

Last night you questioned me about why I think "trial training is so special" (to me you clearly think that its no different to what you do) but your wrong, because it is.

If it wasn't.......then every trainer who makes a living out of dogs would be out there scoring big 200s every weekend, and promoting their business at the same time.

To answer your other question regarding the reason of my opinion that e-collars have no place in trial training: Simple.... Like the APBT, they have a percieved reputation, however wrongly deserved,.......and you wouldn't take a Pittbull to an ANKC ran Poodle Party.

Other triallers see you using one and you will forever be defending yourself around the trial circuit, and all the B.S that will follow.

I really do not want to upset any pro trainer with my last few posts, as I respect them (the ones in our forum) as genuinely nice people, but occasionally I feel some portray themselves to know everything there is to know about dogs, and that is untrue.

[Ptolomy]

Oh dear what have I started!?!

I'm not about to go out and buy an ecollar just to fix sits, I think that's overkill in a big way. I have wanted to get one for some time to sort out some other issues (not trialling issues - chasing the postie issues ). However I was thinking of possible ways to correct the problem at hand and if I was going to get an ecollar then why not use that.

As an update we had reasonable good sits again today at today's trial, we had two but I think they were a footwork issue as I stopped quite suddenly on a funny angle going around the figure of eight. But the rest were good and she got her first ever perfect score for a recall - usually loses points for a slow sit at the start and a sloppy finish so I was pretty happy.

At this stage adjusting when I am using the nrm and ensuring my foot work is spot on seems to be doing the job but I think it will take a bit longer to correct the issue.

I appreciate all the responses and if you keep them coming I'm sure others will benefit from the advice!

Umm I don't want to change the subject - but I dont think you have a slow sit problem any more - I think you now have a stay problem!

Do we need to start a new thread

OOps running away to hide :D

[Cosmolo]

With respect dogdude, how do you know its something i've never trained for? I have two dogs that are considered 'trial ready' (not just by me but by others who do trial) but don't trial bcause of lack of time and interest on my part. I still train them and push them and me to improve in all areas, the same as those who do trial. I didn't disagree wth anything others said with regards to resolving Seita's problem, i only questioned the statement that you can't use an e collar and training in drive.

You say 'some portray themselves as knowing everything about dogs'- haven't seen anyone in this thread profess to know everything and like i said before, clients of mine who trial also attend other clubs to ensure i don't miss anything with regards to trial etiquette etc- I already stated that i don't know as much as others about trialling but i don't think that makes my opinion invalid.

[Seita]

Ptolomy - shhhh!!!

She has never blown a stay in the last 2 years of training and then two weekends in a row she blows all the down stays I just don't get it. Last weekend and Saturday were because of the ants... she gets sooo nervous about ants that she just can't stay still. But today's stuff up was unexplainable, she was fidgeting and stressing and I can't work out what was bothering her it was just unusual and strange. I think she's feeling off at the moment... she might be just about to come in season as there are other strange signs that she doesn't normally do.

But yes this weekend there hasn't been much evidence of those dredded slow sits!!!

[dogdude]

Cosmolo

Twice now I have taken this thread out of the equasion regarding wrong advice given, and i'm not sure why you keep referring to my original post (the one you clearly got all touchy about e-collars) that were not ever mentioned in the post you responded to. I quite clearly said "correction collar".

You say 'some portray themselves as knowing everything about dogs'- haven't seen anyone in this thread profess to know everything and like i said before, clients of mine who trial also attend other clubs to ensure i don't miss anything with regards to trial etiquette etc- I already stated that i don't know as much as others about trialling but i don't think that makes my opinion invalid.

Re-read your last post 5 or 6 times and you may begin to understand how some people like me may get the wrong impression? (and no.... I have no opinion on the quality of your advice, and why would you care anyway), but I am always interested in reading your (and the rest of the pro crue's) posts on most subjects.

[Cosmolo]

Sorry dogdude- i am really confused. I'm not sure what part of my post suggests that i know everything about dogs?

I also didn't realise you weren't referring to this thread a few times so i will go back and read again. I didn't get touchy, i just disagreed- this is the problem with forums, i can't convey a nice neutral tone! :D

ETA, have read where you did take the OP out of the equasion. I'm not really sure what you're referring to when you talk about pro trainers arguing wth experienced triallers though? You suggested i was touchy after i posted one thing that said i had combined 2 methods- i am still confused about how this is touchy? You then made comments about junior pro trainers, (referring to me?) pro trainers commenting on things they never experience in their profession (which is untrue) and pro trainers portraying themselves as knowing everything about dogs. All of that because i said i had combined training in drive and using an e collar!

Edited July 19, 2009 by Cosmolo

[Erny]

My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary

This is my supposed "blanket statement" that you say is untrue? It was made in response to a quote that used correction collar and e-collar in the same sentence, so one could only assume that the op wanted to use it in an aversive manner.....for a relatively easy problem to fix using her already established drive training. Previous to this post, I had not even mentioned an e-collar let alone made comment on whether various levels of stim may change the validity of my post. That was dreamed up by you guys.

I wouldn't say "dreamed up" but obviously misunderstood by more than just me. Refer earlier responses from others where obviously it was thought you were saying that you can't combine e-collars and drive training.

Secondly........I never made suggestion that pro trainers should not attempt to give advice for trialling questions. What I did say was that you often question highly experienced triallers regarding subjects that you have never even trained for.

Ok - this one is about "slow sits" and wanting to fix the problem. You suggest I've never trained for that? Any others that I might have questioned on subjects I've supposedly "never even trained for" please point out to me, because I don't know which ones you're talking about.

Secondly ......... how do I know who is a "highly experienced trialler" or not?

Thirdly ........ do you think "highly experienced triallers" are above being questioned if someone has a valid reason for thinking or even knowing from first hand experience they might be or are wrong? Not even sure where that is valid in this thread.

This is what you've said earlier (just putting it here so it is easier to reflect back to) :

... I have noticed as time goes on there are plenty of pro trainers (particulary junior ones) making comments on trial related subjects that they really know very little about, and question people who know plenty about the subject, subjects that pro trainers almost never encounter in their professions.

Which subjects have I commented on (not sure why I shouldn't comment anyway) that I "really know very little about" and which I have "almost never encounter[ed] in [my] profession"?

I'm sorry Dogdude - I've often respected things that you've said in this forum, but what you've said above to my knowledge is uncalled for and in essence untrue. IMO no-one is above being questioned but it seems you do not share my point of view in this respect.

And like Cosmolo, I'm not being *touchy* about e-collars, but given that you've raised the comments that you have above, I'm getting the feeling you're being *touchy* about something. Quite what, I'm not sure.

I'm really sorry to the OP for this thread being taken OT as it seems to be, but I feel that the assertions Dogdude has made - assertions that are certainly not complimentary to people such as myself, Cosmolo or others who might be considered "pro-trainers" - warrant a response and refute at least until they can be evidenced and verified.

Perhaps, Dogdude, you might like to start a new thread out of respect to Seita if you wish to continue this line with a response.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

Is it that you think me saying 2 of my dogs are trial ready is suggesting i think i know everything? I was just trying to point out that i do have experience with the things you think i don't.

[prodigybxr]

Great posts, Dogdude.

The day I see a dog being shocked for slow sits, is the day I stop trialling.

[dogdude]

Which subjects have I commented on (not sure why I shouldn't comment anyway) that I "really know very little about" and which I have "almost never encounter[ed] in [my] profession"?

I'm sorry Dogdude - I've often respected things that you've said in this forum, but what you've said above to my knowledge is uncalled for and in essence untrue. IMO no-one is above being questioned but it seems you do not share my point of view in this respect.

Erny

Almost every thing 'ive mentioned about my opinions regarding pro trainers you take as a direct personal hit. I have not accused you of being anything but a little touchy.

Perhaps I could have used some more tactfull responses (sorry) I do not want personal ill feeling conveyed in any way.

Same goes for Cosmolo.

Did not mean to imply that nobody is beyond questioning either, but I strongly believe that training a trialling dog to the upper levels of competition, and training a dog capable of a near perfect score (or pure bliss like Ptolomy) requires so many frustrating and challenging "turns of the screw" (turns that are different for every dog) and turns that do not always make sense from a pro point of thinking) that training a trialling dog is different to what you guys encounter every day.

[Erny]

Great posts, Dogdude.

The day I see a dog being shocked for slow sits, is the day I stop trialling.

Prodigybxr - do you understand the concept of (a) Negative Reinforcement or (b) Low Stim? By your comment you don't seem to but it is worth checking . It's just that I don't think anyone has talked about "a dog being shocked for slow sits".

Edited July 19, 2009 by Erny

[Erny]

Erny

Almost every thing 'ive mentioned about my opinions regarding pro trainers you take as a direct personal hit. I have not accused you of being anything but a little touchy.

Ok - thanks for the clarification, but it was difficult to not assume you were directing to me given that I am a Pro-trainer and am active in this thread when you made that comment. And honestly - I'm not being and haven't been *touchy* and re-reading, I don't think my posts have come over that way. But the written word can be mis-read so I'll assume they sound that way to you, but please be assured that any *touchiness* that you detected was completely unintentional.

Perhaps I could have used some more tactfull responses (sorry) I do not want personal ill feeling conveyed in any way. Same goes for Cosmolo.

That's ok.

Did not mean to imply that nobody is beyond questioning either, but I strongly believe that training a trialling dog to the upper levels of competition, and training a dog capable of a near perfect score (or pure bliss like Ptolomy) requires so many frustrating and challenging "turns of the screw" (turns that are different for every dog) and turns that do not always make sense from a pro point of thinking) that training a trialling dog is different to what you guys encounter every day.

I know what you mean by "turns of the screw" and I guess the part that I'm trying to express is that trialling dogs are no different to any other dog whose owner aspires to accuracy and spontaneous, willing, happy and reliable command compliance.

But we've done it to Seita again. Can we leave it off at that for the sake of this thread?

Edited July 19, 2009 by Erny

[Seita]

Great posts, Dogdude.

The day I see a dog being shocked for slow sits, is the day I stop trialling.

I don't think you understand the use of an ecollar properly.

An ecollar used on a low stim is in my opinion far kinder to a dog than some of the horredous, bordering on animal cruelty, corrections on check chains I've seen administered by top triallers for things as miniscule as a slow sit.

But yes, enough of the ecollar discussion please!!!

I am in no financial position to get one at this stage and it would be overkill to get one for this mere problem so will be fixing my problem the old fashioned way either way.

The good news is that since I cracked down on the slow sits a week or two ago they have improved drastically and in a few more weeks I might be brave enough to say that I have resolved the slow sit problem that we were having.

Now onto the next hurdle... pick up a dumbbell cleanly and for goodness sake stop mouthing it!!! LOL

[Steve K9Pro]

S: I was discussing how to fix them with a friend at a trial on the weekend as we are both cursed with them. Neither of us could come up with a method that would fix them permanently, we get good days and bad days with the sits! I have tried heel, sit, heel sit etc and only rewarding fast sits but I'm not getting fast sits consistently from that. If I bring back the sit voice command I get fast sits but auto sits are still slow. I haven't resorting to adding in a correction as yet but am considering a small pop on a correction collar for slow sits but am unsure if that will improve consistency.

K9: Are you still using the remote reward I have taught you? If so you will need to modify this slightly. Te dogs can think of a sit as a delay in reward so it needs to be modified.

Shoot my an email & I will tell you how.

I will also add some comments to answer some thoughts that others have added next.

[Steve K9Pro]

DD: I think that would be a mistake, as it would compromise your training in drive.

K9: Not always, depends on many variables but loosing drive doesn't go hand in hand with using an e collar, unless you want it to.

DD: You cannot combine the two methods. (unless you are aiming to quell very high drive)

K9: You absolutely can, done it guzillions of times.

S: Don't really see the advantage over using low-stim e-collar over a verbal bridge though, when the dog is right beside you?

K9: Advantage is that you can use stim for longer period of time.

DD: My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary.

K9: I do find that people say the word "drive" and being too unspecific, big corrections increase drive, that's drive is avoidance...

Seita: This is why I haven't wanted to use correction up until now and why I was thinking an ecollar on low stim might achieve what I'm after better than a leash correction.

K9: Your not trying to stop something so I wouldn't go for the correction just yet. I haven't seen your dog in a while but I would guess it looks something like.

Your heeling along & she maintains eye contact, you stop & she increases focus & crouches to an almost sit & as time passes, her bum slowly touches the ground.

Does it look like that?

[Steve K9Pro]

DD: We are talking about a really simple problem that should be easy to fix in a high drive dog.(using drive training techniques)

K9: In fact your probably right, but if the problem was that simple this girl would have sorted it, her dog is very good.

DD: On top of that, its for trialling purposes, and I can tell you that there would be next to zero 200 scoring trial dogs around that have check chains and stim collars slapped on them to fix such minor problems.

K9: Just because they are not broadcasting it doesn't mean it isnt true.

DD: I do think that e-collars have no place in basic trial training, even for the use as an nrm. Not necessary. JMHO.

K9: As is your right to that opinion, but there are many 200 dogs out there that are using e collars. The NRM is not a correction but a communication tool that helps guide the dog. NRMS used the right way increase drive in many cases.

JulesP: I would not suggest using a e collar on a border collie for trial training. I have had 4 border collies and all of them would have freaked out.

K9: Very much depends on the ay that it is used, there are no breeds that an e collar cant be used on.

JP: Even too many NRMs would shut them down.

K9: I would pay special attention t how the NRM is issued, many people just call a verbal correction a NO reward Marker, when in fact it isnt.

S: I think there is a flaw in this idea of marking the action of going into a sit is that it doesn't require the dog to actually sit.

K9: corect it will train the dog to crouch.

BCFM: something else that may help is quick releases out of the sit... as soon as her Butt hits the ground release...

K9: This often does work, but in this dogs case where the reward is remote it often creates the crouching problem.