Staranais Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Why can't you combine training in drive and an e collar used on low stim? I have.. Yes, I think you can too. Seems to me you could use the e-collar stim basically as a NRM - apply the stim to tell the dog they're getting further away from earning the drive object, release the stim to say they're getting closer to getting the drive object, etc. Don't really see the advantage over using low-stim e-collar over a verbal bridge though, when the dog is right beside you? Though perhaps different things work better for different dogs, if the dog understands it better then how can you argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 I too think you can combine drive and ecollar work. I haven't worked with an e-collar before but would like to get one at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Why can't you combine training in drive and an e collar used on low stim? I have.. What type of training in drive do you do cosmolo? My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary. We are talking about getting a quicker sit for a trialling dog, not modifying a behavioral issue. Seita, if your dog needs a lead on to get a quick sit, you will probably never get a fast, enthusiastic sit without it long term (worthy of a perfect score) IMO I really think that you will find the answer in your drive training method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Why can't you combine training in drive and an e collar used on low stim? I have.. My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary. Agree entirely about aversive methods reducing drive. But I suspect Cosmolo is talking about using the e-collar at very low levels so that it's not aversive (it's purely informational, like a NRM), so therefore it shouldn't kill drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Why can't you combine training in drive and an e collar used on low stim? I have.. What type of training in drive do you do cosmolo? My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary. We are talking about getting a quicker sit for a trialling dog, not modifying a behavioral issue. Seita, if your dog needs a lead on to get a quick sit, you will probably never get a fast, enthusiastic sit without it long term (worthy of a perfect score) IMO I really think that you will find the answer in your drive training method. Don't really see the advantage over using low-stim e-collar over a verbal bridge though, when the dog is right beside you? Though perhaps different things work better for different dogs, if the dog understands it better then how can you argue. This is why I haven't wanted to use correction up until now and why I was thinking an ecollar on low stim might achieve what I'm after better than a leash correction. Staranais has a good point here too with using a verbal bridge which I think it what I'm going to have to do. Go back to asking for a sit with a voice command and then drop that command out gradually. I will start after this weekend's state trials and go back to basics on the sits and hopefully fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 My comment was directed more towards the correction collar, but any aversive method kills drive to some extent, so I would not use it on a trialling dog when it probably isn't necessary. Dogdude - low stim/neg reinforcement is not "avoidance" training and because the stim is low it does not serve to knock the drive. We are talking about getting a quicker sit for a trialling dog, not modifying a behavioral issue. I use the e-collar in the fashion described above. Not only for and in behavioural issues, but also in refining and improving obedience skill compliance. Seita, if your dog needs a lead on to get a quick sit, you will probably never get a fast, enthusiastic sit without it long term (worthy of a perfect score) IMOI really think that you will find the answer in your drive training method. Disagree with the bolded section here. But I do agree that training in drive is excellent at achieving the results. However, Seita has already expressed that she trains in drive. So using a tool to refine the speed of sit (as well as drive training) is highly likely to attain good results reasonably quickly if she does it right. That's not to say she should. I haven't followed all the posts - maybe she has by now identified why the sits are slow and managed to change something of what she does to improve that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Erny, I think you and others have missed my point. We are talking about a really simple problem that should be easy to fix in a high drive dog.(using drive training techniques) On top of that, its for trialling purposes, and I can tell you that there would be next to zero 200 scoring trial dogs around that have check chains and stim collars slapped on them to fix such minor problems. I certainly wouldn't waste hundreds of dollars buying a stim collar to fix a minor problem in a trialling dog,.....travelling around the countryside trialling is expensive enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Dogdude - I don't think I missed your point. I agree that in the OP's case, going to the expense of an e-collar is possibly more than what she needs and yes, training in drive is probably what will 'do it'. I have already posed the question of what is it that she thinks is the reason her dog seems to be anticipating a following command because I do believe (from the description of her dog's behaviour as written) that there is a training fault that needs to be re-addressed. In regards to the e-collar, I was only making a contrary point in response to what you previously wrote - ie that its use in the method I adopt (ie neg ref/low-stim) does not destroy 'drive' and that an e-collar is an option. Apart from that, I don't know the OP's status - ie whether she has an e-collar already; whether she has availability to one for use; etc. etc. consequently, it was an option I listed earlier in the thread in direct response to the "what can I do" type question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I can't really give her a tug for every sit she does. I do give the tug for some sits, same as I do for other exercises on a fairly random schedule. Maybe you should pay her each time she sits, go back to the beginning, maybe have her sit for longer before moving off. Maybe take the sit out of heeling, introduce a clicker and turn it into a game, fastest sit wins. This will take time as she has a strong background in poor sits. And I wouldn't correct for slow sits, it just made my GSD sit slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 In regards to the e-collar, I was only making a contrary point in response to what you previously wrote - ie that its use in the method I adopt (ie neg ref/low-stim) does not destroy 'drive' and that an e-collar is an option. Erny and Cosmolo Is it possible that you guys may be getting a little too touchy on the subject of e-collars, because i'm not anti e-collar, and I never made a comment on use of levels of stim. As a matter of fact, I gave your details to my ex wife (Erny) to speak to you about using one on her staffy rescue who chases stock and does the runner in general when off lead. I do think that e-collars have no place in basic trial training, even for the use as an nrm. Not necessary. JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I would not suggest using a e collar on a border collie for trial training. I have had 4 border collies and all of them would have freaked out. Even too many NRMs would shut them down. If I have trouble with any exercise with them then I tend to go the opposite way and give lots of treats and try and make the exercise into the best, funniest thing that they will ever do. I might be cussing inside mind you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bordacollies4me Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 a training rule i live by is REINFORCEMENT BUILDS BEHAVIOUR!!! i would try useing a bridge with high level of reward for your dog, but using the bridge as the motion of sit happens and then rewarding for position(basically another training rule.. CLICK for ACTION ... REWARD for POSITION!!!) ie... as your dog starts to sit click/say yes and then reward for position(in the sit) this can be done without cueing the behaviour as well.... my dogs will offer a slow sit if they are anticipating something else like frisbee or tug toy coming, but if just playing with heel work then sits are quick... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 18, 2009 Author Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) a training rule i live by isREINFORCEMENT BUILDS BEHAVIOUR!!! i would try useing a bridge with high level of reward for your dog, but using the bridge as the motion of sit happens and then rewarding for position(basically another training rule.. CLICK for ACTION ... REWARD for POSITION!!!) ie... as your dog starts to sit click/say yes and then reward for position(in the sit) this can be done without cueing the behaviour as well.... my dogs will offer a slow sit if they are anticipating something else like frisbee or tug toy coming, but if just playing with heel work then sits are quick... I think there is a flaw in this idea of marking the action of going into a sit is that it doesn't require the dog to actually sit. If I marked her action of going into a sit she may still end up sitting slowing and what did I mark for in the end?? I say yes when her butt is on the ground, when I was training the sit I might have marked the action of going into a sit but she knows what sit is, she also knows that she needs to sit when I stop she just doesn't see the point of sitting quickly. I did a few sessions this week where I simple didn't let her finish the sit if she was too slow... I moved away and gave her a nrm. And at today's trial we had lovely fast sits, only one was a bit slow in the whole trial. I would not suggest using a e collar on a border collie for trial training. I have had 4 border collies and all of them would have freaked out. Even too many NRMs would shut them down. If I have trouble with any exercise with them then I tend to go the opposite way and give lots of treats and try and make the exercise into the best, funniest thing that they will ever do. I might be cussing inside mind you I have no issues with using an e-collar on a low stim on pretty much any breed as long as the dog's temperment is fine to use it with. I am not talking up putting the collar at maximum stim and zapping the daylights out of the poor dog, I am talking about potentionally using a low level "irritating" stim to give the dog a bit of an aversive to what it's doing and teach the dog that the faster it's butt hits the ground the faster that "irritating" stim disappears. I don't know how to get a nrm to work the same way as this. Which is why I think a small correction timed well would work. My own training rule is no corrections until the dog knows what it's doing, so during the learning phase and then into the proofing phase I will not use correction. But when a dog knows what is expected and decides to do otherwise then I feel that a reasonable correction is fine (by this I mean within reason of the dog, its temperment and what it is being corrected for). In this case Ella clearly knows that sits are required, she also knows that I expect fast sits as she does give them to me sometimes but I think she thinks that sitting is a waste of time and gets in the road of what is coming next so she hesitates and slows it down waiting and anticipating the next command. Yes this is a training issue, I know that I slipped up somewhere and let her get away with being slow on the sits and now she has formed a bit of a habit. Now it is a case of teaching her that slow sits do not earn her a reward. Edited July 18, 2009 by Seita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I would not suggest using a e collar on a border collie for trial training. I have had 4 border collies and all of them would have freaked out. Speaking 'generally' and not suggesting this is what the OP needs to do to fix her problem, but if your BC's "would have freaked out" (I presume you haven't trained to an e-collar using negative reinforcement + low stim) that would be because the stim is too high. There are considerably few dogs (individuals as opposed to breeds) who would not respond well to this training tool. But it does need instruction if you're not sure how it all works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I don't think i'm touchy at all dogdude I just disagreed with something you said. I didn't suggest the OP go out and buy an e collar either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bordacollies4me Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) I think there is a flaw in this idea of marking the action of going into a sit is that it doesn't require the dog to actually sit. If I marked her action of going into a sit she may still end up sitting slowing and what did I mark for in the end?? I say yes when her butt is on the ground, when I was training the sit I might have marked the action of going into a sit but she knows what sit is, she also knows that she needs to sit when I stop she just doesn't see the point of sitting quickly. I did a few sessions this week where I simple didn't let her finish the sit if she was too slow... I moved away and gave her a nrm. And at today's trial we had lovely fast sits, only one was a bit slow in the whole trial. Congrats on working at it and having fast sits in the trial today... is always great to have success... i think that clicking/marking the motion of the sit could work, i wouldn't suggest doing it all the time, sometimes changing things up a bit in training catches them out by surprise... but can actually have benefits... i would not reward for the motion but i would mark the action/motion of going into a sit but reward for position so when butt is on the ground... something else that may help is quick releases out of the sit... as soon as her Butt hits the ground release... i am sure it will all come together in the end.. good luck with your training and trialling... hopefully that perfect score will come for you soon... Edited July 18, 2009 by bordacollies4me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) In regards to the e-collar, I was only making a contrary point in response to what you previously wrote - ie that its use in the method I adopt (ie neg ref/low-stim) does not destroy 'drive' and that an e-collar is an option. Erny and Cosmolo Is it possible that you guys may be getting a little too touchy on the subject of e-collars, because i'm not anti e-collar, and I never made a comment on use of levels of stim. Not touchy here either, Dogdude. Just responding to your comments/thoughts on the e-collar/drive combo. It does work and it is such an excellent method achieving excellent results (happily). And I've seen even better responses from dogs even though they aren't trialling dogs. So I tend to think that trialling or not is irrelevant. I'm not arguing nor thinking you're against e-collars, I just think (from experience) that your thoughts are incorrect. As a matter of fact, I gave your details to my ex wife (Erny) to speak to you about using one on her staffy rescue who chases stock and does the runner in general when off lead. Thank you . That scenario rings a bell, although it is not uncommon. Have I spoken with her yet? I don't think we've actually met though. I do think that e-collars have no place in basic trial training, even for the use as an nrm. Not necessary. JMHO. That's your opinion and you've expressed it as such, which is fair enough. But I'm curious - why do you think that training for "trialling" should be any different than the heights that people who don't trial still wish to achieve? What I mean by that (and I really am trying to word this so you can hear my neutral tone, not one of any ) is why do you seem to think that training for "trialling" is any more special than training but not for trialling? ETA: I agree that training in drive achieves wonderful responses generally speaking as is the case with my boy. Edited July 18, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 I saw Seita's round today and her dog worked really well and there were no problems with her sits at all - well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 That's your opinion and you've expressed it as such, which is fair enough. But I'm curious - why do you think that training for "trialling" should be any different than the heights that people who don't trial still wish to achieve? What I mean by that (and I really am trying to word this so you can hear my neutral tone, not one of any ) is why do you seem to think that training for "trialling" is any more special than training but not for trialling? Ok.....will try my best inserting my neutral tone now...(and leaving the op's post out of the equasion) I really don't have the opinion that trial training is special by any means, but I have noticed as time goes on there are plenty of pro trainers (particulary junior ones) making comments on trial related subjects that they really know very little about, and question people who know plenty about the subject, subjects that pro trainers almost never encounter in their professions. I am not claiming to be a trialling guru of any type, but there are a number of people here that have plenty of practical experience. These same pro trainers are wonderful people (you included) in giving free advice out of the grace of your hearts and dolers are lucky to have you. Q: Why don't we see pro trainers in general on the trialling circuit? I would have thought it would be the ideal platform to showcase your skills and be closer to the dog world where people would recommend you to others with dogs with real problems? You couldn't all be busy every weekend? (No stirring intended.....just always wondered) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) Ok.....will try my best inserting my neutral tone now...(and leaving the op's post out of the equasion)I really don't have the opinion that trial training is special by any means, but I have noticed as time goes on there are plenty of pro trainers (particulary junior ones) making comments on trial related subjects that they really know very little about, and question people who know plenty about the subject, subjects that pro trainers almost never encounter in their professions. I am not claiming to be a trialling guru of any type, but there are a number of people here that have plenty of practical experience. These same pro trainers are wonderful people (you included) in giving free advice out of the grace of your hearts and dolers are lucky to have you. Q: Why don't we see pro trainers in general on the trialling circuit? I would have thought it would be the ideal platform to showcase your skills and be closer to the dog world where people would recommend you to others with dogs with real problems? You couldn't all be busy every weekend? (No stirring intended.....just always wondered) Thanks Dogdude. Obviously I'm one of the pro-trainers that you refer to (as being one of the one's who advise/help others even though they trial their dogs and that because they do, then I shouldn't). Response to your second question first. My previous avatar girl (bless her cotton socks) had behavioural issues and although these were overcome in a big way, she would not have enjoyed the intensity of the show/trial arena one little bit. My current boy is 1 year old now. I am working on his obedience skills and my aim is to trial. In between his training he has been beset with some health issues which has caused some delays. I am pleased with how his skill training is coming along but he's not ready for the distractions of the show/trial arena. My question back to you (nicely) is however : Why do you suggest (and use the OP's situation as an example) that what has been suggested by me (ie look at drive training; e-collar, in the method I've described is an option that can be incorporated if possible) is not good enough for a trial dog? In otherwords, what is it that you think I need to know about trialling to understand where my suggestions are wrong? I've already explained that e-collar training used the way I've described is quite complimentary to drive training so the "knocks drive out of the dog" can't be part of the answer to that. (Well it can be, but it would be your opinion which of course you're entitled to. But I have first hand experience that tells me otherwise and can therefore attest to it.) Edited July 18, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now