Seita Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Ok, so I am on a mission to get that elusive 200 score in obedience. I consistently lose one or two points per exercise due to messy finishes, comes that stop a little too far in front and my biggest peeve slow sits! I can fix the finishes and fronts, those are the way they are due to lack of consistent training on my part but the sits I can't seem to fix. I was discussing how to fix them with a friend at a trial on the weekend as we are both cursed with them. Neither of us could come up with a method that would fix them permanently, we get good days and bad days with the sits! I have tried heel, sit, heel sit etc and only rewarding fast sits but I'm not getting fast sits consistently from that. If I bring back the sit voice command I get fast sits but auto sits are still slow. I haven't resorting to adding in a correction as yet but am considering a small pop on a correction collar for slow sits but am unsure if that will improve consistency. Does anyone have some good, proven games or exercises to improve the speed of auto sits as I'm sick of getting 29's and 19's for exercises because of them!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 Nobody has any ideas? Just to clarify, she sits slowly in anticipation for what is coming next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Randomise the exercises and if that doesn't help i'd give a well timed correction for the slow sits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) Training in drive promotes fast(er) command responses . Also, e-collar work (low stim - negative reinforcement) assists as well. But there is training behind this that would need to be done so your dog would understand what the stim was about and how to control it. Edited July 15, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Yep I agree Erny. Kovu hits the ground like lightening for a drop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 See my issue is that I do train in drive and she is really fast on the drops or anything else that has a voice command associated with it but she sits really slowly when I stop and don't say anything (which is all the time in competition). You can see her virtually trembling out of anticipation for the next command which is what leads me to believe that she is sitting slowly because she thinks there is another command coming immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 See my issue is that I do train in drive and she is really fast on the drops or anything else that has a voice command associated with it but she sits really slowly when I stop and don't say anything (which is all the time in competition). You can see her virtually trembling out of anticipation for the next command which is what leads me to believe that she is sitting slowly because she thinks there is another command coming immediately. Then I think you need to ask why she is anticipating another command coming immediately. If this is the case then it is a training issue and you need to remove her reason for the anticipation. Also you need to not reward her for the slow sits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 She doesn't get a reward for slow sits, she gets a nrm and we try again. I reward the fast sits with a yes and have started to bring back the tug for some of those fast sits to make it clear that fast sits are the way to get rewarded. But it still isn't giving me consistency, she was doing rocket fast sits on Monday night at training but this morning out at the park she was back to giving me slow sits again... I try to ensure my footwork and body language is the same all the time and has always given a 'yes' for fast sits during training but the problem is still there. The only reason I want to fix it is that I really want that perfect score! I'll also just mention that this isn't a new problem, she's been doing this since we started competing at the start of last year it's just started to bug me now. She does sit and most of the time it is within 2 or 3 seconds, I'm just being fussy and want instant sits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I try to ensure my footwork and body language is the same all the time and has always given a 'yes' for fast sits during training but the problem is still there. The only reason I want to fix it is that I really want that perfect score! On pay day at work my boss gives me a good girl for all the work I have done but it doesn't make me want to work extra hours - however, if he icreased my pay and gave me longer lunch breaks I may consider it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) Ptolomy and if your boss said you could have an all expenses holiday and to take the rest of the month off does that come into the might consider category or would your productivity definitely increase on your return. Edited July 15, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 She doesn't get a reward for slow sits, she gets a nrm and we try again. I reward the fast sits with a yes and have started to bring back the tug for some of those fast sits to make it clear that fast sits are the way to get rewarded. But it still isn't giving me consistency, she was doing rocket fast sits on Monday night at training but this morning out at the park she was back to giving me slow sits again... You've started bringing back the tug? If you're training in drive, where did the tug disappear in amongst your training regime? What did you use to provide her with drive satisfaction instead? Perhaps I misunderstand what you've written. Also, use TOT to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 You've started bringing back the tug? If you're training in drive, where did the tug disappear in amongst your training regime? What did you use to provide her with drive satisfaction instead? Perhaps I misunderstand what you've written.Also, use TOT to help you. I meant increasing how much I reward her with the tug for sits specifically. I usually reward (with the tug) for a good heel exercise (say 20 steps with a command or two in there). I stopped rewarding for every sit she did once she had the idea and I could add more steps/commands before rewarding with the tug. The tug has never disappeared from training, she has just had to work harder to get it. How do you suggest using TOT, I do use TOT but have never really used it as part of my training in drive? On pay day at work my boss gives me a good girl for all the work I have done but it doesn't make me want to work extra hours - however, if he icreased my pay and gave me longer lunch breaks I may consider it In Ella's language "yes" means you are getting paid with the tug (the best reward she knows and wants). I can't really give her a tug for every sit she does. I do give the tug for some sits, same as I do for other exercises on a fairly random schedule. She also gets a nrm when she hasn't done a good enough job and for her that means she isn't getting paid.... I'm not sure what you are suggesting I do in my training program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 I am not sure at what point you are giving your NRM - I would suggest if this is the way you want to mark a slow sit that you actually give your NRM and step away from her before she plants her bum on the ground - otherwise its a sure fire way to confuse the dog. You have halted, she has sat, and then you are telling her too bad so sad. Sorry - you didn't say that you were paying her for a good sit with a YES followed by a game of tug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 I am not sure at what point you are giving your NRM - I would suggest if this is the way you want to mark a slow sit that you actually give your NRM and step away from her before she plants her bum on the ground - otherwise its a sure fire way to confuse the dog. You have halted, she has sat, and then you are telling her too bad so sad. Good point, I'll try that in our next training session and see how that works. Sorry - you didn't say that you were paying her for a good sit with a YES followed by a game of tug. It's ok, I didn't explain it very clearly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Seita, Do you finish on the same foot for a halt (sit) as you do for a drop? For example: (This is my footwork, others I know have it reversed the other way) Drop/Stand: I give my command when my Right foot is forward and finish when my left foot comes up. Sit: I bring my right foot up last, so basically hold on my left foot. I found Jemma was anticipating her moves until I changed the footwork. Away from the trial ring, can you get her to do a fast sit. Heaps of little quick succession sitting exercises with jackpot high rewards?? Maybe at home, go back to saying sit for a few times to reinforce the action?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 See my issue is that I do train in drive and she is really fast on the drops or anything else that has a voice command associated with it but she sits really slowly when I stop and don't say anything (which is all the time in competition). You can see her virtually trembling out of anticipation for the next command which is what leads me to believe that she is sitting slowly because she thinks there is another command coming immediately. Could she be waiting for the tug to come out?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Ptolomy brings up a good point regarding the NRM, but on the flip side, start to mark the mechanical action of the exercise (the motion), and also remove the auto sit from block heeling, making sure you isolate it and finsh with it. Is she fully focused during the slow sit? If worse comes to worse, go back and lure it until pattern trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted July 16, 2009 Author Share Posted July 16, 2009 Footwork is the same for all stops (sit,stand,drop). I stop on my right and bring my left up. She sits slowly at random times, some days are good some are bad. It doesn't just happen in the trial ring. She is fully focussed on me while going into the sit, I never really lose focus during heelwork. I have pretty much removed the sit from block heeling, I use stands and drops most of the time. In a seperate exercise I work solely on sits, usually in quick heel, sit successions rewarding the fast sits only. I think I'll go back a step to using a voice command all the time and making a big fuss over good fast sits and once I have consistency there I'll start dropping the voice command out again gradually. I tried Ptolomy's suggestion on use of the nrm this morning and I think we had a bit of improvement during the session, I guess we'll see how this works over the next couple of sessions. I found that a small pop on the lead also improves speed during a session but I don't always work on a lead... might be time to invest in an e-collar, I've wanted one for a while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) I found that a small pop on the lead also improves speed during a session but I don't always work on a lead... might be time to invest in an e-collar, I've wanted one for a while... I think that would be a mistake, as it would compromise your training in drive. You cannot combine the two methods. (unless you are aiming to quell very high drive) Do you have the Balabanov dvds? He talks about marking early to improve speed, and it has helped speed up other areas of my training. Edited July 16, 2009 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 16, 2009 Share Posted July 16, 2009 Why can't you combine training in drive and an e collar used on low stim? I have.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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