Group Training Class Distractions

[callee]

Okay, yesterday was the 2nd obedience class Demon and I attended. More dogs had signed up over the week, so there was myself, 2 labrador pups, a cavalier pup, and a really tall dancing poodle. There is a handler for each, the trainer, and 2 or 3 "in-training trainers".

Last week when it was just the 3 of us, me and the 2 labrador pups. Demon was great. Very responsive, obedient, like all well trained dogs should be. Yesterday, we went backwards.

I don't know anything about poodles, but this thing was not listening to a word the handler was saying, jumping up and down like a deer on a trampoline, and my boy just wanted to stand there and stare at it. At one stage the handler even hit her dog with the handle of her lead (and was told off by the trainer.

Knowing the poodle was hyper, male and taller than my boy, I stayed down the other end of the line from the woman and her ballerina. I still could not maintain my boys focus on me when standing/sitting/dropping in a line, even food was not enough. He kept looking around me, or getting up and walking to a better spot to see the poodle.

He was okay to begin with when doing heel practice. But when came time to walking your dog around the line of others, the poodle danced in front of my boy snapped at him, and of course Demon tried to take on the challenge. I immediately growled, checked, and heeled and walked away to try and distract him, and to give the opportunity for the poodle lady to gain control again. This seem to work fine.

Then we started tracking over ground where the poodle had been walking and I could not keep my boys nose of the grass. No discipline from me was working nor reward for when he did seem to be focused on me.

About 15mins before we finished up, my boy was getting to the point when we would pull up to a halt, he would just flop on his side and give me the look of "I've had even of that dog, you telling me no, this check chain, and I don't want anymore treats" (not that he gets alot during class).

The minute class was over and he got away from the poodle, and anywhere the poodle had been he was fine (or just so over the whole idea he didn't want to fight me anymore) but definitely more responsive to me.

I know I am responsible for my dog and my dogs actions in all situations, so his inability to focus is my lack of control. I can walk Demon anywhere else, and if another dog is around I can generally maintain his focus. For some reason he just really doesn't like this poodle (he has never seen one since living with us).

What do you do or can you do, when someone else's dog is playing up so badly, it is effecting others?

How have other people who have been through this before fixed the situation?

Edited July 13, 2009 by callee

[Erny]

I know I am responsible for my dog and my dogs actions in all situations, so his inability to focus is my lack of control.

IMO his "inability to focus" is a matter of too high an intensity distraction that he hasn't been more gradually worked up to.

Use your class as YOUR learning arena and then take home what you've been taught and work on the new things you've learnt. And use some of the class time to work on things that you have taught Demon at home and that he knows, at a distance from the other dogs in the class. In this case it is possibly that it was the poodle's behaviour (and maybe in a small part the way it looked ie unfamiliar).

What do you do or can you do, when someone else's dog is playing up so badly, it is effecting others?

I use distance as my 'friend' and work my dog in easy exercises (ones that are well-known) and work up from there. I don't ask my dog to do things that I do not expect he is capable of doing when he is under 'load'. What I first do are basic things (as aforesaid) until that 'load' is not as much of a 'load' as it first was.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Erny

[callee]

Thanks Erny. Very insightful. What kind of tricks do you use to gain a dogs attention?

The trainer advised the "watch" tactic - hold food in fingers, make sure dog knows you have it, hold up in front of your face, saying watch, and reward when completed. But this definitely did not work at all yesterday. Any other ways?

Also, I carry my treat pouch on my right (dog on the left of course). I have done this so that he does not expect there to always be food involved. Should maybe I transfer the pouch to the left so he can smell it better?

[Erny]

Thanks Erny. Very insightful. What kind of tricks do you use to gain a dogs attention?

The trainer advised the "watch" tactic - hold food in fingers, make sure dog knows you have it, hold up in front of your face, saying watch, and reward when completed. But this definitely did not work at all yesterday. Any other ways?

I note I don't work for "focus" as often or as much as others do. I use TOT to begin this and the rest tends to follow naturally, provided I am not loading my dog by going too far too fast with distractions. So I don't really have 'tricks' per se to accomplish this. I also don't ask for focus when the dog IS in a situation where it is too hard/unlikely. Some how much emphasis has been placed on getting the dog's focus in times of high distraction as a 'behaviour modification method'. IMO, turning to look at you and hold your gaze whilst being under a passive command yet loaded by the activities in the immediate environment is danged hard for the dog and often fails.

Also, I carry my treat pouch on my right (dog on the left of course). I have done this so that he does not expect there to always be food involved. Should maybe I transfer the pouch to the left so he can smell it better?

I don't train this way either. To me that is a 'trick' and one that is likely to wear off quickly and therefore also likely to fail. I will alter the position of a food treat pouch to encourage better position - but it doesn't have much to do with trying to get a dog under control in a high distraction environment IMO. And don't think for a second that just because your food treat pouch is on the other side of you that he can't already smell it and know it is there.

As I mentioned - I think distance should be used as an advantage in achieving what you want to achieve in training. The food treats (assuming you give them) will be 'worth' more to the dog then, and this will help to retain their value. If there is some reason why I HAVE to be in a high distraction environment that my dog has not been trained up to, then I'd prefer to not worry about attaining the newer or more difficult exercises, I'd rather concentrate on my dog just settling down and tuning back into me. And that can be as simple as smart/quick loose lead walking exercises.

In the earlier days, when I took my boy to class, it was only to get him used to being in the proximity of other dogs (and, amongst other things, understanding that did not mean play). I didn't do any of the exercises taught in class, other than lots and lots of loose lead walking exercise. I didn't ask for sit or drop or heel or look. I'd go a considerable distance out in the process of the LLW and then I'd produce the tug toy and have a game of tug. I did that with distance to begin with because I knew that his drive was not strong enough at the time to combat the other distractions (dogs). When he got better at this with the inclusion of sit/drop etc at home, I began to add sit to my "class environment repertoire". I'd practice the other things at home under minimal distraction. Perhaps easier for me because I am a trainer and although I might pick up some useful 'tips' from some instructors, I didn't really need to learn 'how to do it' myself. So I can appreciate how it can be difficult for you to learn if you're too far away. But if that's the case, be in a bit closer. Don't expect much of your dog - maybe a sit that you can hold him in so he doesn't break, and listen and watch the others. Then train for these new things back at home.

Many people have the concept that their dogs are learning in class. As a spin off, to a degree they are. But IMO class is about the PEOPLE learning how to teach their dogs. The best place for the dog learning newer things is in the lower distraction environments. And then build up distractions and expectations from there.

Some of what my dog does and does well at home, I don't expect that he's ready for when in a loaded state. So I don't ask for it. I'd rather work on his 'loaded state' to bring it down somewhat (LLW is good for this as there is no command involved; no finesse to position required), THEN ask for some of the obedience skills I've taught him under lower intensity environments. Sometimes, if I'm 'testing the waters' to see how much he'll give me (just the odd times of uncertainty) I'll ask for a handshake. If he doesn't give me that at least I've not weakened my expectation of command compliance to other IMO more essential skills.

Rather than relying on tricks outside of yourself to tune your dog to, use yourself (your activity) to achieve this. Your dog is more likely then to tune into you rather than to the food you are carrying.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Erny

[callee]

Thanks Erny.

I will follow what you advised - Train to teach Demon through the week, and used Sunday's obedience class to train myself how to teach Demon and for him to practice being in these circumstances.

I really appreciate the advice you have supplied, thank you for taking the time.

I will post an update next week.

[Seita]

I would also increase the distance from the other dogs to a point where you can get your dog to focus a bit more on what you want him to do. I will be taking my young pup (4.5months) to training for the first time tonight and will be just working and playing with him near a class at a distance where I can keep his focus. I'm not putting him into an actual class rather just getting him used to focussing on me near distractions and I will let him dictate how close to those distractions we can go without him losing focus from me.

I strongly believe in teaching new things in a low distraction environment first and then increasing distractions... that's why I think group classes are not the best place to train a dog, rather they are a great place to learn how to train your dog. The real training should happen at home and later at parks and other places as you increase the level of distractions that your dog can work with. Also most group training classes don't mind if you work off to the side a bit or do a bit of your own thing if your dog is struggling or getting bored in the class.

[all that glitters]

My girl had her 2nd obedience class yesterday too and distraction is still an issue. We were all practicing some heel work, and although I could get her to focus for small amounts of time, getting her to focus initially is the hard bit!! But each little success I hope will lead to good focus later, it's hard with a dozen other yappy puppies around you and wind and voices etc

[callee]

Well, I have just prooved to myself, my hubby, and Demon - it is not that Demon does not respect my authority, he is not undertrained for a 3yo, and that I must be doing something right.

I didn't do any follow up training on Sunday, just threw the ball around in the backyard to show him I am a fun person too.

Tonight I took him somewhere completely new, a new housing estate. The blocks have been leveled, cleared of rubbish, well lit. No dogs were around. Using a 4ft lead (same as I do in obedience), I was:

loose lead heeling (he normally walks with a slight pull to the lead, this was our first loose lead walk),

immediate sit on command when halting (and a number of times at a halt without command),

drop,

sit stay and do a lap of him,

drop stay and do a lap of him,

sit stay to the front facing him then recall then 'finish'

running back recall - actually I didn't even needs to call, the second he noticed I had stepped back he spun around to run in front of me,

turn about heel (I only do it with him looping behind me) on loose lead

Then I pulled out the 6metre lunge-line. My plan was to simply work on sit stay and recall into sit, followed by finish.

Absolute success first time everytime!!! To the point where I was able to walk at full length of 6m (plus outstretched arm) from infront of him, and walk 90 degrees either side! Then recall into sit in front of me followed by finish into sit at heel!!! I was so happy! I honestly thought he would want to get up and smell things.

I did try to get him to drop from sit while we were apart. He knows the command, but each time I tried he would get up and slowly walk back to me like he was in trouble. The minute I said "AH", he would cower like he was in trouble. Should he be able to do this? Or are dogs not expected to drop at a distance?

We stopped doing this and just went back to sit stay and recall. After a few attempts and him getting it perfectly, I decided to push it one step further - working on the training done with the 4ft lead, just let the length of lead drag while I hold the handle. Now I wasn't expecting this 2 work as normally, if the 6m lead is on, he is down the beach and allowed the length of it.

IT WORKED!!!!!! EVERYTHING WAS PERFECT!!!!! Even where he was positioned was fantastic! Turnabout was amazing!! I was expecting him to notice the length was no longer dragging as we were walking back over - nope, he was right there beside me!!

The highlight - regardless of what lead, and what length, he was constantly looking me in the eye for instruction.

I was so pround of both of us! And feeling more confident about going on Sunday. We must be doing something right!

Everyone keeps saying keep your distance from the class - I have tried that, but the trainer keeps calling me in closer. I think if the issue is still there next Sunday, I will have to politely request I work at distance within ear shot for a while.

[newfsie]

I think all the training you are doing is great and it is good to hear you have so much success, well done

But I feel the socialization for your dog with other dogs is also really good. being in contact with lots of dogs under control is good for dogs.

It is why I go to classes. I know all the training bits, but doing it all with distraction is what makes it challenging and eventually the better social dog

I have had several rescue dogs and they were not good with other dogs. So I found training with other dogs helpful. To the point where our dogs are now very social and do all their work with us, no matter what is happening elsewhere. f you go to dog-shows, obedience trials or just walking in public places your dog will have to learn to cope with all the distractions.

So I think classes are a good way to start. I enjoy the inter-actions and I think it is good to teach my dogs to cope, anywhere under any conditions

Edited July 13, 2009 by newfsie

[callee]

I think all the training you are doing is great and it is good to hear you have so much success, well done

But I feel the socialization for your dog with other dogs is also really good. being in contact with lots of dogs under control is good for dogs.

It is why I go to classes. I know all the training bits, but doing it all with distraction is what makes it challenging and eventually the better social dog

I have had several rescue dogs and they were not good with other dogs. So I found training with other dogs helpful. To the point where our dogs are now very social and do all their work with us, no matter what is happening elsewhere. f you go to dog-shows, obedience trials or just walking in public places your dog will have to learn to cope with all the distractions.

So I think classes are a good way to start. I enjoy the inter-actions and I think it is good to teach my dogs to cope, anywhere under any conditions

I completely agree! The reason I chose group sessions was to put him around other dogs (Demon is a rescue too). Specially since loosing our girl. If I was just after training, I would have employed a trainer's services to do private lessons around home.

He was fine around the lab pups on the first lesson.

Was quite happy to work along side them and the new cav pup classmate, looping around them at close range.

Even standing around to pick up our name tag and drop it off, he was fine with the other dogs around (a little excited when we first get there but controlable).

It literally just seemed to be the poodle that was Demon's "problem", and it was only when the poodle started leaping and bounding around that it caught Demon's attention. He was originaly more interested in saying hi to the trainer!

[dogdude]

Hi Callee

I agree with Erny in that you should not expect your dog to learn much during a class. It is for you more than your dog.

Also, don't get caught up trying to train at home as you do in class. Do not try to do an hours work. It will bore your dog to tears.

Pick one exercise at a time and work on that in short bursts, doing a couple of minutes of learning and calling it quits. You can do this many times a day if you want, but keep it short and sweet.

Use a high value reward, and if you plan to maybe trial, teach focus before anything else, starting from a stationary heel position.

Move on when you dog knows the said exercise inside out. Better to concentrate on one thing at a time, and learn it well than bombarding your dog with multiple exercises.

As your dog is learning new exercises, you can then always finish on a good note with a short reminder of a previously learned exercise.

You will be suprised at how quickly your dog will learn this way.

[callee]

Thanks Dog Dude!

I think I was just more upset that I have worked so hard to get Demon to trust and respect us over the past year, trying to show him that we aren't going to give up on him, and that was the first time I really didn't feel I had the control. It tooks me ages just to be able to get him near an area with lots of dogs without him panicking (I think he use to believe we were going to throw in him a shelter again whenever he saw more than a couple of dogs in an area).

And I also think I was incredibly frustrated that I was doing everything possible to try and get Demon to follow the exercises, to sit in the correct spot, to heel without nose in the ground. And I'm very conscious that one of the lab pups is male, and the uncertaintity of how Demon may react when the pup is close, or any dog for that matter. But the poodle and owner just seemed to come across ... I don't, I guess carefree and selfish in the same instance???

I do my home training for about 15mins.

We start with heel, then sit, then drop, then sit stay and walk around him, then drop stay and walk around him, recall on short lead (of course using heel in amongst it all). Then I change to the lungeline and do sit stay and recall, and last night I added heeling. Always finish on a good note and a quick game. Use treats randomly amongst it (I don't want him being treat dependent).

[dee lee]

Sometimes, if I'm 'testing the waters' to see how much he'll give me (just the odd times of uncertainty) I'll ask for a handshake. If he doesn't give me that at least I've not weakened my expectation of command compliance to other IMO more essential skills.

Erny that's a really great tip!

I'm always reluctant to "test" my dog in a situation in case she doesn't respond and Ive weakened the command- but she knows how to shake so I'll do that next time. Thanks!

[newfsie]

I think all the training you are doing is great and it is good to hear you have so much success, well done

But I feel the socialization for your dog with other dogs is also really good. being in contact with lots of dogs under control is good for dogs.

It is why I go to classes. I know all the training bits, but doing it all with distraction is what makes it challenging and eventually the better social dog

I have had several rescue dogs and they were not good with other dogs. So I found training with other dogs helpful. To the point where our dogs are now very social and do all their work with us, no matter what is happening elsewhere. f you go to dog-shows, obedience trials or just walking in public places your dog will have to learn to cope with all the distractions.

So I think classes are a good way to start. I enjoy the inter-actions and I think it is good to teach my dogs to cope, anywhere under any conditions

I completely agree! The reason I chose group sessions was to put him around other dogs (Demon is a rescue too). Specially since loosing our girl. If I was just after training, I would have employed a trainer's services to do private lessons around home.

He was fine around the lab pups on the first lesson.

Was quite happy to work along side them and the new cav pup classmate, looping around them at close range.

Even standing around to pick up our name tag and drop it off, he was fine with the other dogs around (a little excited when we first get there but controlable).

It literally just seemed to be the poodle that was Demon's "problem", and it was only when the poodle started leaping and bounding around that it caught Demon's attention. He was originaly more interested in saying hi to the trainer!

Yes it can be hard when one dog misbehaves or distracts or hones in on your dog. We have had a difficult great Dane in our class, who bounded along and did all sort of things. We also had a full on focused bounding BC.....But I would just go on as if nothing was happening. Sometimes i think if we (the person on the end of the lead) gets slightly agitated or annoyed, our dogs can feel it and react. so I just smile and "good girl" with treats and just go on....even the bad dogs settle down eventually. All my training at the kennel club is about picking up info and socialization. there are no bad days, just slightly more complicated days

Edited July 16, 2009 by newfsie

[Jigsaw]

I've found that most of the distractions have come from other owners who have become frustrated with their dogs and start shouting "no" at their dog or just raising their voice at their dog to emphasise their command. I don't shout at my dog and rarely use the word no. Some of the instructors at the club are very good and chastise people for doing this, others let it go. Most of the time this happens during stays so I find I have stay close to my girl (she has a pretty soft temp) and get her focus back and reinforce frequently while this handler disturbance is happening.

[The Spotted Devil]

I don't do group training at a club but I am forced to do any off lead training at the dog park......which can be a right pain in the @r$e!!!!!! However, now I just take any distraction (which can involve another dog running over, trying to play, stealing his food etc etc) and treat it as a training opportunity. Depending on how far the strange dog pushes the boundaries, I either continue training OR switch to something like a sit very close by with eye contact (not on cue) and heavily and continually reinforcing the behaviour. It's kind of fun after a while!

[Seita]

I don't do group training at a club but I am forced to do any off lead training at the dog park......which can be a right pain in the @r$e!!!!!! However, now I just take any distraction (which can involve another dog running over, trying to play, stealing his food etc etc) and treat it as a training opportunity. Depending on how far the strange dog pushes the boundaries, I either continue training OR switch to something like a sit very close by with eye contact (not on cue) and heavily and continually reinforcing the behaviour. It's kind of fun after a while!

That's what I did with my girl too, I didn't take her to a group class until she was proofed at the local park and in the dog park. Now that really is good training once your dog is at that sort of level!

OT - I tried to do some training at home with my girl the other day while the puppy was loose, I gotta tell you a 5 month old pup hanging off the ear of the adult dog I'm trying to train is probably the biggest distraction she's ever had to face! And she still tried to heel as best she could!!

[The Spotted Devil]

OT - I tried to do some training at home with my girl the other day while the puppy was loose, I gotta tell you a 5 month old pup hanging off the ear of the adult dog I'm trying to train is probably the biggest distraction she's ever had to face! And she still tried to heel as best she could!! ;)

Heh, heh I have the same problem here but it's the KITTEN hanging off the ear of the dog One of my other cats loves to snuggle on my shoulder and Zig doesn't even blink if I ask him to do heel work with a cat wrapped around my neck

[voloclydes]

so common a problem except we don't have the cat doing the whole attack..

tis the jrt hanging off leo's jowls like the stihl doggie in the whipper snipper addvert.

i just give up! jelousy's a curse ;)

[callee]

WOW :D - I could only hope my boy will get to the stage that he could have a puppy or kitten hanging off of him, and he will still obey.

Lesson 3 on Sunday - I'd be stoked if my boy could pull it off like a pro, but will be happy if they're is not another challenge between the Patronising Poodle and my Darling Demon (no biasness there at all ;) )!