Wrestling

[corvus]

What kind of activities can you do with a dog that loves wrestling? Kivi will play a bit of tug and fetch, but wrestling is his favourite. He's a very touchy feely kinda dude. I've been trying to fulfill Kivi's wrestling needs for months, but I just don't compare to another dog. He wants to mouth me and he can't because even though he is gentle, inevitably he leaves marks in the rough-housing. I've kind of devised a wrestling game where he is focused on a toy rather than my hand and pushes against my hand to get to the toy, but he has to be feeling really drivey (for Kivi) to play that for very long. Sometimes he just wants to lie down and play bitey face or something and when I say no teeth he doesn't know how to play without teeth.

[persephone]

I don't believe one 'should' play wrestling/body contact games with dogs... partly because of a safety thing... but that's just me.

[Erny]

I 'wrestle' with my dogs. But whilst it is play, I am also teaching them how not to 'go too far' and that includes NO mouthing. It depends on the dog in question - some dogs that I see when called out to a consult or private lesson have learnt to use wrestling (and rolling over tactics) to avoid doing something they don't want to do. For those dogs and for those people I generally caution against them continuing with it, until and unless 'harmony' (whatever problems are well and truly solved) resumes. But even then - 'wrestling' is to be on their (the humans') terms and that includes when it starts; how the 'game' is played; and when the game will finish. I run this game in the same manner.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Erny

[Okami]

I think it really depends on the dog I would "rumble" around with my old dog, trusting, careful, playful and always in control (both of us)

I couldn't do it with either of the two I have now, Steve (the tiny one in my sig) is too small (although he would love it ) and Kara (the scruffy girl) wouldn't "get it"

I wouldn't let my dogs "mouth me" I just don't think it's appropriate.... that's me

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i tend not to wrestle as it seems to "rev" dogs up too much.

however i am happy to play with them chasing my hands and trying to catch them as long as the dont use their teeth. its hard to explain this game tho!

[corvus]

We play a lot of rough games with him because he loves it. It's always on our terms. My problem is what can you do instead of wrestling? What is a similar sort of exercise that doesn't automatically involve teeth? Kivi knows how hard he can bite, but in the excitement of wrestling with me he inevitably bites too hard and when I tell him he gets all repressed and doesn't want to play anymore. He'll lie down and whine or start chewing the furniture again or something. I'd like it if he knew how to wrestle without his teeth, but I can't teach him that if he doesn't want to wrestle without his teeth.

[persephone]

give him some leather soccerballs or something- he can use his feet or mouth with them... and he is not overstepping any boundaries

[Vickie]

It's always on our terms. ... Kivi knows how hard he can bite, but in the excitement of wrestling with me he inevitably bites too hard.

Sounds like it is not a good idea for you to be wrestling with him. If he is biting too hard then it's not on your terms. There are a thousand other things you can do with him that he will enjoy that do not involve his teeth.

[Erny]

It's always on our terms. ... in the excitement of wrestling with me he inevitably bites too hard

That's not "your terms".

... and when I tell him he gets all repressed and doesn't want to play anymore. He'll lie down and whine or start chewing the furniture again or something. I'd like it if he knew how to wrestle without his teeth, but I can't teach him that if he doesn't want to wrestle without his teeth.

It sounds as though he is confused. One moment you want to wrestle, next thing he's getting into trouble. Rather than that, I agree with Vicki - don't do the wrestling with him. Try tug; training in drive; stuff like that instead.

[corvus]

Well, it is on my terms because I started it and I stop it when he bites too hard. It's not like he's coming over and asking to wrestle and then beating me into submission with his teeth. We also play a game where he tries to catch my hand in his mouth and he never bites too hard with that one. I don't want to suppress him particularly, and I want to play games with him that he likes.

We do play tug and a bit of fetch and a variation of tug where he pushes against my hand to get at the toy in my other hand. I'm just wondering what some of the thousands of other things we could do are. I made him a flirt pole, but he's scared of it.

[Erny]

Well, it is on my terms because I started it and I stop it when he bites too hard.

I disagree. It is not on your terms because you express that you still have a problem with him biting you during the wrestle. So he's not playing the game to your rules/terms.

If a person who had a dog who liked ball chasing and the person was playing 'retrieve'. The person started it. The person finished it. But in between the dog continued to run off with it. Do you think the dog is performing on the person's terms?

Or another analogy : A game of football between people. The game started when the siren sounded (not before) and the game finished at the second siren. But in between times, one team broke all the rules of the game, king hitting members of the other team; excessively rough body contact.

Do you think that team is playing to the terms of the game that were set by the people who made up the rules?

I don't.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Erny

[Vickie]

We also play a game where he tries to catch my hand in his mouth and he never bites too hard with that one.

I cannot imagine how this game could ever be a good thing to play with a dog. He may not bite you too hard but it is inevitable that he will mistake a signal from someone else to play this game...sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

I don't want to suppress him particularly, and I want to play games with him that he likes.

But you are suppressing him, every time he bites you, you react & he shuts down. I would be very concerned if I was shutting my dog down in an attempt at fun, it kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? He will enjoy any games that you make enjoyable for him. It is up to you to achieve this.

I'm just wondering what some of the thousands of other things we could do are.

Let's see, tugging games, retrieving games, targetting games, shaping games, tricks, sporting activities.

As I said, he will enjoy whatever you make rewarding. Use your imagination. My dogs will go wild to play a game with me & a single leaf. Obviously the leaf by itself is not fun, it is what I do with it that makes it a fun game.

Have you ever taken any training lessons with this dog? Sounds like it wouldn't hurt to have a couple of lessons with a motivational trainer. It sounds like you have some minor relationship issues that would be better solved sooner rather than later.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Vickie

[callee]

We have taught Demon 'tag' (the school yard game, where someone is 'it', and that person chases the others to transfer the 'it' status). For our game though, its usually once you have caught up to the person/dog the the 'it' changes ( somehow I spend a lot of time being it).

I also found it very hard to get demon to tug, until we discovered junk mail! My boy loves the sound and feel catalogues makes when playing tug, so junk mail welcome at our house!

We do have a form of wrestle/herding.

We play it on a certain rug, that we have to move a coffee table off of, Demon knows unless the vaccuum cleaner is out, the game is on when we move the table. So that gives us the control over when it is played.

The object is for either him to keep me on the mat by herding around me, or for me to wrestle him down (his 25kgs against my ??kgs I have nothing to worry about). He will open his mouth, no teeth, and wave his head side to side, tail wagging, play bow, make funny happy groanning type noises that sort of imitate the noise I make at him.

I stoop/hunch in a playful way as if I was stalking him.

Once or twice teeth have gone around an arm or hand, but everytime he backs away quickly and watches me carefully afterwards. I have to instigate the game again after that happens. I truly believe he knows thats wrong, just poor timing on both our parts in the heat of the game.

I'm always the one to call it quits, and only after I have wrestled him to the ground on his back and given him a tummy rub. Intentionally putting him into submission so he knows I have won everytime.

If he ever bit me, or intentionally went to fake a bite, the game would never be played again.

Edited July 13, 2009 by callee

[Staranais]

I played wrestle with my last dog, he seemed to love the physical contact and the gentle rough-housing. He was very good at mouthing me very lightly on the arms and hands, and seemed to understand the rules of the game very clearly. He never attempted to snap, snarl, dominate me, or apply heavy pressure. He also was a very handler soft dog - on the few occasions over the years that he mouthed me uncomfortably hard, a yelp from me were enough to stop him on the spot instantly and make him very much softer with his mouth in the following sessions. He never put his mouth on me outside wrestling sessions, and stopped happily and immediately when I signalled to him that the game was over.

I would definitely never have allowed him to play this with anyone beside myself (I didn't actually allow him to play anything much with anyone besides myself - he knew very well that he was expected to be on "good manners" with everyone else besides me).

I don't think I'd want to play this type of game with a dog that was snappy, that tended to get too hyped up by things, or that didn't already have great manners with strangers. So if I owned your dog, Corvus, I don't think I'd wrestle with her. No offence to your dog - I probably won't wrestle with my new dog, either.

Lots of other things you can do to bond with your dog, though.

Playing hide and seek in the house, playing find the hidden treat or toy, playing tug with a toy, retrieving a toy, shaping new tricks with a clicker, ripping up newspapers or old cardboard boxes together, etc.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Staranais

[callee]

ripping up newspapers or old cardboard boxes together, etc.

Thats the tug game we play with catalogues - tug to rip! Demon loves it!

[corvus]

Well, it is on my terms because I started it and I stop it when he bites too hard.

I disagree. It is not on your terms because you express that you still have a problem with him biting you during the wrestle. So he's not playing the game to your rules/terms.

If a person who had a dog who liked ball chasing and the person was playing 'retrieve'. The person started it. The person finished it. But in between the dog continued to run off with it. Do you think the dog is performing on the person's terms?

Here's an argument no one is going to win.

The way I see it, all games are on my terms if they are dependent on me to happen. I don't care if a dog runs off with things when I'm trying to play fetch. I guess the dog doesn't want to play and the game ends there. How is the dog meant to read your mind and know what your rules are unless you stop playing when they don't toe the line?

Kivi is well behaved with other people and doesn't mouth strangers. My little bro plays rough wrestling games with him when he visits and they adore each other. He still tends to bite too hard sometimes, though. Kivi also doesn't initiate these mouthy games. You have to go up and start pushing him around. He knows by my body language when I'm going to play with him. I've never had him chomp on a hand signal. I think the pushing tug game has potential to fill the wrestling niche, but ultimately he's going to be going to daycare/the dog park more often. At least until we get another dog. The soccer ball would be something he'd be into. He can get all touchy feely with the ball. He likes to use his paws and his mouth when he's wrestling.

[Erny]

Here's an argument no one is going to win.

Corvus .... you always argue. You ask a question then argue with the answers even though you asked for them. And no matter the responses, you continue to argue the same argument. Are you like that at home to your parents? ..... I can imagine.

The argument is won - it's just you don't seem to recognise when you've lost.

And I agree with what has been written - no way would I 'play chasey' to my hand.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Erny

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

Kivi also doesn't initiate these mouthy games. You have to go up and start pushing him around.

Kivi knows how hard he can bite, but in the excitement of wrestling with me he inevitably bites too hard and when I tell him he gets all repressed and doesn't want to play anymore

Join the dots Corvus. Your dog never initates this kind of play. Could it be because when he responds to being "pushed around" by getting over excited, he gets told off and shuts down.

You have some interesting ideas about what constitutes an enjoyable game for a dog. Personally I think it's extremely unwise to encourage ANY behaviour which results in a dog having its teeth on you. That goes double for people outside the dog's immediate pack. But no doubt that's an argument I won't win.

Edited July 13, 2009 by poodlefan

[Vickie]

Corvus .... you always argue. You ask a question then argue with the answers even though you asked for them. And no matter the responses, you continue to argue the same argument.

So true. This should not be an argument. You asked for advice on a problem, because you don't have the skills or experience to solve it yourself...if you did it would not be a problem would it? and BTW a dog who bites too hard IS a problem.

The solution has been given. Don't wrestle with this dog. No argument necessary.

As far as your original question, yes it is possible to wrestle with a dog and teach them not to use their mouth. None of my dogs ever use their mouth on me because I have the skills and understanding to train them not to, and they have never been shut down in the process.

My advice remains, go take some lessons from someone who has experience in dog training, for Kivi's sake, as well as your own.

Edited July 13, 2009 by Vickie

[corvus]

Holy crap! I didn't realise this was going to turn into an argument.

I'm fine not wrestling with Kivi or finding a way to wrestle with him that doesn't involve teeth. That's what I was asking about. I don't actually have a problem with Kivi's behaviour, I was just wondering if anyone knew of a wrestling game that didn't involve teeth or a game like wrestling that didn't involve teeth. My only argument was with the assertion that the game is not played on my terms. It is. I can see that other people will disagree and it's a matter of perspective, hence, here's an argument no one can win because it is too subjective. That argument has nothing to do with why I started this thread. I wasn't looking for an argument. I have far more provocative ways to do that!

So for the record, Kivi likes to wrestle but is too polite to come barrelling up to me and initiate the game himself. He has ways of asking, though, which I encourage in all my animals. Communication is good! He is a mouthy character, which is not something I have a problem with. He just likes having something in his mouth. He's very gentle on things and we still have all but one of his toys from puppyhood. I don't think we've ever even lost a sock to him and he walks around with them a lot. Usually I whack a toy in there and he's perfectly happy, but when wrestling he spits it out because that's how he wrestles with other dogs. He needs his mouth for it. I started this thread because I was wondering if a) there was a way to teach them to wrestle without their mouths and b) if not, are there other games you can play instead that are very much like wrestling? I have got my answers. A) Yes, if you have a dog receptive to it and b) There are lots of games you can play with dogs that don't involve teeth, but nothing that is really the same or very similar to wrestling. My own invented game is the closest and Kivi is coming to quite like it, so I'll keep on with that one.

K9 said something about there being nothing dogs can provide another dog that you can't provide yourself. I imagine you all know how I feel about K9, yet here I am, looking for a way to provide something I was thinking only other dogs can provide. I really and honestly am not after an argument. I just wanted ideas is all.