Pack Heirarchy In Domestic Dogs

[Ci]

Hi K-9, sorry I was actually to reponsing to what Aatanic posted not you, I should have used quotes.

But I will say that while I was going through my training - I sawa quite a few dog trainers who did totally unnecessary things to dogs and did more damage than good.

Like for example being heavy hands on timid dogs and making them very fearful. And yanking the crap out of some dogs to the point where the dogs choke and in front of owners!

There are alot of BAD trainers out there and I will never understand why they are even in the industry!

Edited November 28, 2004 by Ci

[aatainc]

A lot of the die hard purely positive trainers that I have met recently completely deny the existence of a heirarchy and will not use the word dominance at all. I know, I was chastened for using the word.

[poodlefan]

Aatainic writes:

A lot of the die hard purely positive trainers that I have met recently completely deny the existence of a heirarchy and will not use the word dominance at all. I know, I was chastened for using the word.

Oh puhleeese...

How can anyone watch their dogs in a household and deny the existance of a hierarachy. Perhaps if we all start talking about 'leadership' in a pack instead of dominance its more socially acceptable?

To suggest that dogs can be aggressive but to eliminate dominance as a source of aggression seems illogical to me.

[Ci]

But the thing is a totally domanint dog is not "aggressive" as such. They are actually quite cool and calm and collected as they have nothing to prove to anyone.

Unless you challenge them and then they will let you know that you are pushing it and if you keep going then they will become aggressive.

As someone else posted - it is Beta dog, trying to get to Alpha that are aggressive.

And of course fear aggressive dogs.

[Ci]

Just a thought - do delta deny the Domanince and Heirarchy in dogs because of the type of dogs they could to become theraph dogs?

I mean the dogs have to be pretty stable and be able to cope so it stands to reason that they would not easily react to something.

[poodlefan]

Ci writes:

But the thing is a totally domanint dog is not "aggressive" as such. They are actually quite cool and calm and collected as they have nothing to prove to anyone.

Unless you challenge them and then they will let you know that you are pushing it and if you keep going then they will become aggressive.

I agree Ci - but pack hierarchy DOES change - and that's when the challenge for dominance will spark aggression.

Have also seen where conflict between dog and owner for dominance has led to aggression from dog.... no conflict of course if owner knows his or her place.

[Ci]

Oh what happened to my post????

Yes I understand it changes - new dog comes along, alpha dog gets old etc etc

Thats why I wrote unless you challenge them.

[snobbybobby]

I went to a seminar on the weekend that was run by the Delta Society on Aggressive and Anxious dogs. One thing was brought up that I would like to get everyones opinion on. One of the lecturers is now saying that there is no pack structure in domestic dogs. They are too far removed from wolves to have it and there is no evidence of it. Apparently we are silly for having thought that and we must now change our way of thinking. We should also stop studying wolves to research domestic dogs.

I've just read through all the replies to this topic.

To be fair to the lecturer ( who, it seems, is a *qualified* canine behaviourist, in all probability quoting scientific research) why isn't a direct quote aired on this forum? How are we sure what is reported actually what was said?

The right of reply seems to be sadly missing and ppl are airing their own agenda.

JMHO

Henrynchlo

[Guest Kelly]

Pack Hierarchy in Domestic Dogs.

I can't help but wonder exactly *what* Kersti Seksel said that Reeda found problem with! I attended the Delta Seminar on "Anxiety & Aggression" with Drs Seksel and Perry when it was presented in Melbourne, and found it excellent.

Their seminar notes include :

"Because the two lines separated so long ago [100 000 years] the dog and teh wolf are very different species . . . Artificial selection and intensive breeding has meant that the dogs today should not be considered as domesticated wolves, but in fact separate species. The misconceptions that arise from thinking about dogs as wolves has lead to problems when interpreting the behaviour of domestic dogs . . . Additionally, the misunderstanding of what is "dominance" has lead to many problems . . . Concepts such as alpha or top dog and pack hierarchy have also been mininterpreted." (pp. 2-3)

There are plenty of good books around on the social behaviour of the domestic dog (Coppinger and Coppinger springs to mind, as well as Jonica Newby's "The Animal Attraction" originally published as the better titled "Pact for Survival".

Or any good book on Dingoes -- since domestic dogs are very much more closely related to Dingoes that to wolves.

Happy Reading, yooz mob -- then we can have an intelligent discussion

Kelly

[snobbybobby]

Happy Reading, yooz mob -- then we can have an intelligent discussion 

Kelly

Thank you Kelly for, at least, giving us some hard evidence to work from. An intelligent discussion is more than needed!

Henrynchlo.

[Guest Reeda]

Kelly & henrynchlo

I also found the seminar to be a wealth of knowledge and a great learning experience. I agreed with just about everything that was discussed and learnt a great deal. I have a personal opinion on the topic and do believe that you can see pack behaviour in our animals. This is the topic in general that I was looking for "opinions" on.

Due to the fact that we both went to different seminars, there is no way of knowing what information was brought up at either as I am sure there where different questions presented at bothe seminars.

From reading through my first post, you may see that I was after people's "opinions" on the topic. To me that equates to an "intelligent discussion" and I take offense that people stating their beliefs or opinions is not intelligent! We are all different and believe different things. Everyone has a right to that and to express it.

Just because I paid money to attend this seminar, does not mean that I should take in all the information without thinking about and processing it. Obviously the lecturer is a lot more experienced than me and has done a lot of research, however that does not mean that EVERYTHING that is discussed is correct. (I am not saying that it is not correct, I am saying it MAY not be correct) There may well be truth to the topic and evidence to back it up, I personally have not seen any, so at this stage I will stick to my beliefs.

Reeda

Edited December 4, 2004 by Reeda

[Guest Reeda]

Just wanted to add, by the number of "opinions" of other DOL's just about everyone here sees evidence of pack structure in their animals.

[JackieW]

Yes, but it's not necessarily a rigid pack structure, or at least not in my house. My female dog is the boss over my male generally but she'll let him go through doors in front of her. The hierarchy probably depends on what is important to each dog? She doesn't care who goes through the door first but she does care if he objects when she tries to steal his food. And of course, he wouldn't dare to try to steal hers .

Re dominance, here's a quote from the seminar.

"Impulse control" aggression

"This used to be called "dominance" aggression. It is an abnormal, inappropriate, out-of-context aggression that is manifested by dogs towards people when the "resource" is access to control.

"This is a widely used term, but, like "hyperactivity" in children, it is often misused to describe any aggressive signals by a dog towards a person or another dog. A better term, when a confrontation about control does occur, is status related aggression or impulse control aggression. Often, however, the dog is merely acting to protect itself, rather than displaying offensive aggression. The underlying problem is anxiety not dominance!"

[snobbybobby]

From reading through my first post, you may see that I was after people's "opinions" on the topic. To me that equates to an "intelligent discussion" and I take offense that people stating their beliefs or opinions is not intelligent!

Reeda,

To begin with, I was mainly concerned with the possibility of the speakers' points being distorted and misreported. The speaker concerned is a highly respected and experienced Animal Behaviourist. He/she has not been afforded the courtesy of a chance to reply because he/she is not on this forum.

Misreporting happens all the time in the media as I'm sure you are aware - in that situation it can, and quite often does, put a whole new slant on things for vested interests (one of the reasons I go to the non-commercial TV & Radio stations for info.)

Secondly, and more importantly, people put their own interpretation on this as has happened on this forum. The discussion has, in my opinion, done nothing to "clear up" the confusion - just gone back to "opinion without evidence"!

JMHO

[Guest Reeda]

You may have noticed that I never once mentioned the name of the lecturer as I did not want that to affect any of the opinions that were put forward. I mentioned that it was a delta seminar because I thought that there may be some people who had been to previous seminars that may have gotten a diffenent angle to me and could pass on their thoughts. It also allowed for others who attended the same lecture to add further information.

I do not know if this is the belief of all the delta instructors etc.

I also mentioned on other posts that this was how I had interpreted what was being said and I did not think that I had misinterpruted.

Again, as stated before I specifically asked for peoples opinions on this topic as that was as indepth as I wanted to go on a forum. I personally will continue to research this and many other topics in relation to Dog Behaviour as it is something I am passionate about.

I know that there are times when pack structure is not as evident in a home situation, especially in a harmonious one. However, you can normally "IMO" tell which dog is the leader or the group - eg, more assertive, will not let other dogs push it in certain situations etc.

I also understand that people are very quick to place a "dominance" lable onto a behavioural problem. I think this is because that is what people hear the most and it gives a quick fix in their minds. There are many reasons behind behaviour issues and I do agree that anxiety and agression play a huge role in this. I do not however believe that you should write off the importance of a pack structure and its existence. Just because it is misused, does not mean that it should not be used at all.

For my part, the reason I started this discussion is because I had not heard this understanding before, and I was looking to an area that is well versed in dog issues to get the opinions of the users. I did not intend to bad name anyone or cause tension. I was looking for a way to discuss something that had been brought to my attention.