Agility Bar Knocking

[Vickie]

I thought I would start this in a new thread so as not to hijack the other one anymore.

I think the 'lines' comments in kelpies is true in that there can be a massive difference in temperaments, etc. - but must admit I haven't seen too many lines with little sense of self preservation - although I'm sure they are out there. As a generalisation, in Vic. anyway, the BC's jump way flatter than the kelpies - and are way bigger bar knockers.

Agreed, I think we do have more BC's jumping flat than kelpies up here. ;) The kelpies here that knock bars tend to knock them due to spinning, barking and going sideways over jumps (and we certainly have BC's doing that too).

The trend in agility at the moment here is that a handful of judges are starting to put down what I would call 'speed courses' in Masters - a nice change from the usual tight crap we still get most of the time

I'm coming to Victoria then! :p I am sick of tight crap, it is so much less fun.

I don't think drive and self preservation are mutually exclusive - trend here with the 'over the top drive' dogs is that some trainers are not teaching any self control exercises in the fear that it will ruin the drive, which I don't agree with, think it's more like the way control is taught in some cases that does the damage.

Agreed. There are lots of high drive dogs with preservation & control. It is a much safer option & one that I will always strive for.

Vickie, do you think the jump style and tendency to bar knock in BC's is line related, training related, combination of both or generic to BC's ? Just curious as I've never taught a BC to jump before and would really like to hear thoughts from someone experienced with BC's.

I'm sure it's a combination of things but I think it can be line related. I feel some BC's are physically too heavy & not structurally suitable to match the drive in their head. I would class one of my older dogs in this category. There are also BC's being bred for agility with no off switch. I think you have to be a bloody good trainer & handler to successfully manage this type of dog, they are not the type of dogs I want.

My older 2 BC's were bar knockers. One was a chronic flat jumper and has no sense of self preservation. The other was certainly a bit more controlled but is not what I would call a highly athletic dog, his drive was high, but his body could not keep up with it. I did no grid work with them & was learning as a handler so gave plenty of late signals & poor handling. We also spent a lot of time training on low jumps.

My younger 2 both have a very nice jumping style, they are not flat & will only knock an occasional bar if my timing is out. I think they are built a lot better than my older dogs. Both were given very basic jump grids where I taught them to collect & extend and we did rear end awareness. I have done no remedial gridwork with them as they have never needed it. Neither have done much jumping on low heights, I just waited until they were physically mature before I jumped them & I pretty much went straight to full height.

In general, I think dogs knock bars due to:

poor conformation

lack of consequence/self preservation

they have never been taught to jump, collect, extend

lack of rear end awareness

they were started with remedial gridwork that was not necessary & actually ruined their natural style

poor handling choices

poor handler timing

Edited July 9, 2009 by Vickie

[Nicole...]

Hi Vickie! Great topic I have to say!

I was wondering if you could give more information to a newbie about some of the things you are talking about.

Bit of background - I have been doing agility for about a year with my cocker (trialling for 3 months now) so am quite new to the sport... We now have a 16 week old BC who we intend to do agility with once he is old enough. We are really fortunate that we have had minimal problems with Lomani knocking bars - and those that we have had were totally due to my poor handling!!!!

We have definitely seen a much higher rate of bars being knocked by BC's and want to do anything we can to minimise this with Bond.

We were reading some articles recently that suggested some of the problem with knocking bars is training on a low height and then increasing it. It promoted waiting til a dog matures before you start jumping and commence jumping at the correct height which is exactly what you have said. Is the theory behind this that the dog learns to jump flat at the low height and then doesn't change it's technique when you raise the height? But if you start jumping at full height they learn to jump up not just forward?

Are you able to explain more what do you mean by "Both were given very basic jump grids where I taught them to collect & extend and we did rear end awareness. I have done no remedial gridwork with them as they have never needed it." I am probably aware of the sort of work you are talking about, but just not the terminology :p

[Kavik]

Would participation in flyball impact on knocking bars in agility as the jumps are so low in flyball and such speed over the low jumps is encouraged?

[JulesP]

Have a look at the Susan Salo jumping dvds. They are on Clean Run. She is a horsey lady that applied horse jumping training to dogs.

[kelpiechick]

I thought I would start this in a new thread so as not to hijack the other one anymore.

The trend in agility at the moment here is that a handful of judges are starting to put down what I would call 'speed courses' in Masters - a nice change from the usual tight crap we still get most of the time

I'm coming to Victoria then! I am sick of tight crap, it is so much less fun.

Good idea starting a new thread.

Now don't get too excited about Vic. courses - unfortunately the lovely flowing ones are still few and far between the tight twisty crap - but what fun to run when they do appear. I believe they have come about from a certain NSW judge who sometimes comes to Vic. and a couple of other judges have listened to us raving about how much we love his courses - and so are obliging with similar ones every now and then.

Not everyone likes them though - they tend to get extremely fast times put on them so a lot of small dog handlers don't like them - although the faster small dogs have no problem making time.

Some good observations about bar knocking - different structure in different lines is a good point too and not one that I've thought much about before. Also many BC's here that have problems with bars tend to have an inefficient take off point and launch themselves much too early. (not just BC's, I am generalising here.

Personally I love jump grids - not just for teaching how to jump collected and extended, but for working on striding length between jumps and bend work. But just repeating the same grid over and over and not varying the set up causes some dogs problems too IMO.

[Reddii]

Would participation in flyball impact on knocking bars in agility as the jumps are so low in flyball and such speed over the low jumps is encouraged?

I'd have to say NO!!! Both my dogs are flyball nuts and I'd say I can count on one hand the number of times they have knocked a bar that has not been a consequence of poor input from me. If the dogs cannot read the jump heights you are asking of them you have not done enough work teaching them to jump.

This is an excellent topic and I agree with Jules P - Susan Salo's DVD's are EXCELLENT and really point out how misunderstood jumping is. Dogs don't know how to do it naturally and do have to learn what we are asking of them, just like any other skill.

That said I think handling choices/timing as Vickie said would have to be the two biggest causes of bar knocking when you watch back videos of people running their dogs.

[4Kelpies]

Great topic.

I haven't done agility in years but I used to mix up my jump heights when training - different heights on the same course, some over and some under the height the dog would jump in competition to make the dog jump more carefully. I suppose it's a carry over from when I used to jump horses. It always surprised me that in agility every jump was the same height both in competition and in training classes. I also did some grid work.

Have those of you who do NADAC and ANKC seen any difference in the number of bars being knocked with the more flowing NADAC courses? Or are ANKC course becoming more flowing these days? I used to trial in the days when many ANKC judges came from an obedience background and didn't have much agility experience. Many of their courses just weren't dog friendly.

[Agility Dogs]

Great topic.

I haven't done agility in years but I used to mix up my jump heights when training - different heights on the same course, some over and some under the height the dog would jump in competition to make the dog jump more carefully. I suppose it's a carry over from when I used to jump horses. It always surprised me that in agility every jump was the same height both in competition and in training classes. I also did some grid work.

Have those of you who do NADAC and ANKC seen any difference in the number of bars being knocked with the more flowing NADAC courses? Or are ANKC course becoming more flowing these days? I used to trial in the days when many ANKC judges came from an obedience background and didn't have much agility experience. Many of their courses just weren't dog friendly.

In my VERY limited experience with ANKC agility I noticed that there were more bars being knocked than in ADAA (Not NADAC) trials. I'm not sure if this came down to the nature of the course (some are not pretty) or whether it was the way in which the handlers worked their dogs.

The ANKC guys I saw didn't tend to give their dogs really good information (body/positional cues) and were too busy trying to 'tell' their dogs what to do on the course (over, over, over, slow down etc etc) and as a result the dogs were making last minute decisions a lot of the time. The courses probably contributed to it, but the course shouldn't really matter that much if the handler understands the job and communicates it clearly to their dog IMO.

I know when my dogs run clean it is because I have run clean, have got my timing right and not confused them (or in spite of the fact that I haven't - they can be very fogiving!)

Flame suit on........

[helen]

I thought I would start this in a new thread so as not to hijack the other one anymore.

..............

My younger 2 both have a very nice jumping style, they are not flat & will only knock an occasional bar if my timing is out. I think they are built a lot better than my older dogs. Both were given very basic jump grids where I taught them to collect & extend and we did rear end awareness. I have done no remedial gridwork with them as they have never needed it. Neither have done much jumping on low heights, I just waited until they were physically mature before I jumped them & I pretty much went straight to full height.

In general, I think dogs knock bars due to:

poor conformation

lack of consequence/self preservation

they have never been taught to jump, collect, extend

lack of rear end awareness

they were started with remedial gridwork that was not necessary & actually ruined their natural style

poor handling choices

poor handler timing

How many of you have watched the puppy puzzle DVD by Pat Hastings. talks about chosing puppies from sound confirmation and how important good confirmation is needed for performance dogs.

As well as what is already mentioned dogs can be naturally more sure footed than other dogs and can naturally judge jump heights etc better than other - a bit like someone with excellent hand/eye coordination

[kelpiechick]

Have those of you who do NADAC and ANKC seen any difference in the number of bars being knocked with the more flowing NADAC courses? Or are ANKC course becoming more flowing these days? I used to trial in the days when many ANKC judges came from an obedience background and didn't have much agility experience. Many of their courses just weren't dog friendly.

ANKC (in Vic.) is very much a 'mixed bag' these days. It seems to go in trends here. Last year leading up to Nationals we had some of the most disgusting courses you could ever find in Masters- it was like many of the judges seemed to think that the only way to 'prove themselves' was to see who could set the most technical courses - and some of them were just absurd to the point of being dangerous.

My record of scratching from runs in the period last year from May to July was higher than it's ever been - after having had a year off trialling due to my dog's injury I won't run anything where I am worried about the safety aspect - I even scratched a run at Nationals. (which was a big deal as I could only run on one day, but my dog comes first)

This year the trend in Masters seems to be a number of speed courses (with very tight times though so they are not always popular with some) mixed in with the more technical courses and it's been a lot more fun. Even the tight crap isn't as demotivating when dogs get to have a little 'speed fest ' thrown in every now and then . The thing I like about these is that it has been interesting to see some of the dogs that dominate the technical stuff not do so well on the speed courses and vice versa. Plus the speed courses usually see a lot more off courses as it's harder to be where you have to be to handle the discriminations which are still included.

Sad thing I have noticed though is that the crap seems to have moved down to the lower classes - my young boy is just starting out trialling, he's had four trials so far and last week I went straight from Masters jumping to Excellent Jumping with him and the Excellent course was way harder than the Masters one I had just run.

I'm not the best person to ask about NADAC as I'm not a fan and have given up running it - used to like it years ago when it was ADAC, but there have been a lot of changes since then. One thing about it that I believe is detrimental to dogs jumping(and may very well cause bar knocking) is that they use identical spacing between jumps so after a while many dogs start to pattern their striding and don't learn to be 'intelligent jumpers' by having to judge different take off points. I always find it funny where I train as several of the instructors run mainly NADAC and when they set a training course they will move all the jumps to 'identical NADAC spacing.' And many of their dogs do pull bars when another instructor sets a course and varies the spacing.

Edited July 10, 2009 by kelpiechick

[poodlefan]

IMO, all agility courses need to be a mix of speed and handling. An all speed course with the obstacles 8m apart is a course I'd scratch from in Masters because with the times being set these days, there is no "most economical line" where a smaller dog can be handled tighter to shave metres off the line measured by the judge. I don't enjoy racetrack courses at all.

Finding that economical line and not deviating from it is how dogs who don't have the fastest speed across the ground make Masters times. Don't lose sight of the fact that all dogs, regardless of size get the same time out there. For those running faster 500 dogs, you shave time to get places. The rest of us shave time to qualify.

Anywhooo back on topic.

"Bar knocking" is a symptom, not an outcome of an issue. It could well be a conformation issue for a dog who lacks drive to clear jumps. It could be (and I'd argue is most commonly) a result of a poor jumping style or late handler cues, or both. Sometimes you'll see hard dogs (who dont' care about knocking) and dogs who lack self control do it too.

Edited July 10, 2009 by poodlefan

[ILK]

I would definately agree that handling techniques play the biggest part in bar knocking, e.g. late cues or poor positioning.

I have only worked with kelpies so I can't speak from experience about other breeds, but I have found that the kelpie is a great natural judge of height. I'm sure that that some breeds wouldn't be so switched on in this area so would need extra attention given.

I will be watching this thread with interest. Great topic :D

[kelpiechick]

IMO, all agility courses need to be a mix of speed and handling. An all speed course with the obstacles 8m apart is a course I'd scratch from in Masters because with the times being set these days, there is no "most economical line" where a smaller dog can be handled tighter to shave metres off the line measured by the judge. I don't enjoy racetrack courses at all.

Finding that economical line and not deviating from it is how dogs who don't have the fastest speed across the ground make Masters times. Don't lose sight of the fact that all dogs, regardless of size get the same time out there. For those running faster 500 dogs, you shave time to get places. The rest of us shave time to qualify.

And that's why I really like this current 'mixture' - something for everyone ! You don't enjoy 'racetrack courses' and I don't enjoy the ones we get that are so tight that only the small dogs are able to negotiate the turns economically most of the time - and many times are the only ones to go clear. This also happens a lot in Vic. So it's good to have a mix thrown at you - which also helps you become a better handler. (Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much 'in between' being put down a lot of the time)

I think 'finding the most economical line and not deviating from it' should be the goal for everyone, not just small dog handlers. To have that run where your dog asks you no questions and you know you probably couldn't have shaved any more time is an awesome goal.

And in Vic. most of the small dogs 'don't get the same time put down there' - most trials offer extra 10% for 200 and 300 dogs here - plus they get extra 'restricted to height trials' that the rest of us can't enter, and even more planned I believe.

Plus there are a number of small dogs here who have no trouble making times, even on the 'racetrack type courses.' My kelpie has had his butt kicked by a poodle and a papillon on several occasions. (There is a poodle coming up the ranks here at the moment that I can only dream of ever being able to go that fast - it also kicked butt with most of the BC's at Nationals in the Novice Jumping final.)

Some of the courses with extremely tight times are unrealistic for everyone, not just small dog handlers. I would like to see a more realistic rate applied across the board so that all dogs that run a reasonable speed regardless of height have a chance to qualify.

Would also be interesting to see any data collected on which height categories have the most 'bar drops' - especially when applied to the body type and structure issue.

[poodlefan]

I think 'finding the most economical line and not deviating from it' should be the goal for everyone, not just small dog handlers. To have that run where your dog asks you no questions and you know you probably couldn't have shaved any more time is an awesome goal.

However, a smaller dog's "most economical line" will always be tighter due to smaller stride and landing distances. Smaller dogs don't tend ot have the same issues with call offs because they just don't get as close to the distraction - the challenge is speed across the ground and the contact obstacles and handling to get a very efficient line between obstacles. Every metre you shave is time off your course time. '

And in Vic. most of the small dogs 'don't get the same time put down there' - most trials offer extra 10% for 200 and 300 dogs here - plus they get extra 'restricted to height trials' that the rest of us can't enter, and even more planned I believe.

I've never seen either of these practices in NSW/ACT. I've seen seperate height categories with course/time adjustments but never more time on the same courses or restricted height courses unrelated to breed trials.

Would also be interesting to see any data collected on which height categories have the most 'bar drops' - especially when applied to the body type and structure issue.

As a 300 competitor I can tell you that its very unusual to see dogs of that height or 200 dogs take bars. As a steward I can say with complete certainty that its the 500 and 600 dogs that knock most bars.

Edited July 10, 2009 by poodlefan

[JulesP]

I have a border collie that runs like a small dog, lol!

[poodlefan]

I have a border collie that runs like a small dog, lol!

What crouched?

[OSoSwift]

Very interesting topic!

I haven't trialled in agility for quite a few years now, Novice handler and novice dog. I ran My Dobe. I was told by someone else trialling a Dobe that Dobes jump flat naturally and you want them too as they get around faster. My thoughts were if you teach them to jump correctly, they will naturally flatten a little when going faster, but will still have the scope to round up and not knock bars.

I have only ever trained horses prior to the Dobe so apllied my theories learned from that to my dog. Lots of grids, differing heights and distances. Bounces between jumps, working on her looking for her own strides and getting her to shorten and lengthen as required.

Most of the times we had a problem it was mine, she was much better at it than me. She never hit a bar in any of her trials, stuffed up various other things though.

It is good to read that maybe I was closer to the mark than I thought!

My Whippet also naturally jumps fairly flat and fast, so I am in the process of doing the same grids and jumping exercises with her, early days yet. I will probably never get to trial her as distance and time is a problem, but I always try to train as though I am. OUr local dog club runs so mock trials so that will have to do!

I will read this topic with interest.

[poodlefan]

Having come from a horse background I find it interesting that we expect dogs to jump a single bar rather than filled jumps (something you'll never see on a show jumping course), and all jumps the same height.

You also rarely see dogs trained to jump using a ground line to indicate take off points. It can be quite helpful.

[OSoSwift]

Yep Poodle fan I agree. When I was training my Dobe I did use poles on the ground to help her see the distances easily and give her a more solid object to focus on. I kept thinking, no reins, no legs, how can I get her to do what I want from a distance without touching her at all - quite an interesting situtaion for someone used to sitting on a horse!

I used grids where the jumps were varying heights and I changed them often!

Makes want to go and train now!

[poodlefan]

Yep Poodle fan I agree. When I was training my Dobe I did use poles on the ground to help her see the distances easily and give her a more solid object to focus on. I kept thinking, no reins, no legs, how can I get her to do what I want from a distance without touching her at all - quite an interesting situtaion for someone used to sitting on a horse!

I used grids where the jumps were varying heights and I changed them often!

Makes want to go and train now!

Howie has his first kindy agility lesson on Sunday.. I'm sure it will be "interesting"

I've seen a couple of dogs benefit in terms of judgment from having jumps more filled. You'd only expect a very experienced horse to be able to jump a single pole at full height.