Owner Behaviour More Influences Dog Behaviour, Than Breed

[ChocosMum]

GREAT THREAD

I TRULY BELIEVE ITS THE OWNERS NOT THE BREED........

i have been brought up with GSD,Bullies,Rotties and love them all...they never once hurt anyone

maybe we should have law for owners too be

ANTI-BSL

[Kirty]

Cosmo, why is my dog so hypo then when I am so lazy!! LOL!!

[alpha bet]

Just a quick question for the dog trainiers of the forum, Nekhbet, Cosmolo and others, do you notice a lot of instances at training where if the dogs owner is hyper and highly strung the dog seems to be as well?? I notice it all the time, time and time again we have owners with dogs who you would expect to be quite ok behaviour wise and they just arent and you take particular notice of the owner and realize that the dog is basically mirroring the owners behaviour and I find that is a really hard thing to combat cause how do you change the way people are or the way they act. I just feel sorry for the poor dogs.

So I definaltly agree with owners behaviour influencing dogs behaviour over breed.

Of course most dog trainers understand that they have to teach the owners. Hence why taking a dog to train and handing back to the family doesnt work (my opinion anyway).

One of my concerns with most of the 'dog training courses' on the market is that they are marketing to people who hope to work as dog trainers. But I have yet to hear of any of the courses (at least in Vic) that aim to build up the ability of course recipients to actually 'teach humans'.

A school teacher has 4 years training and then still has to learn to teach once they are in the classroom. After 13 years of running a dog school I believe it took me perhaps 5 or 6 years before i really had the confidence to be able to teach the different personalities.

It is actually one of my favorite parts of running classes, It is a constant challenge dealing with people from all walks of life and exploring the best ways to approach them. I am still constantly developing and finding new ways to work with both the dogs and the humans.

[Cosmolo]

Lol at Kirty I don't know- but i would expect the energy level in your household would be reasonably high overall? With kids etc- this would probably impact plus he's just trying to keep you on your toes!!!

Alpha bet- yes thats true. I have met a few really good dog trainers who aren't great at communicating with people and a few trainers who aren't that great with dogs but are terrific with teaching people. To find a trainer who has both may not be common but is well worth it. To be honest though, its not something i think a course can cover- to some degree you've either got it or you don't and the rest comes with experience and maturity. I'm happy to admit i have changed alot over the last few years, realising that there are many different paths someone can take to get to an end goal. The trainers job is to guide the dog AND owner towards the best path for them.

And totally OT- but boarding and training is the best option for some owners, if the buttons are already in the dog, its easier to then teach the owner how to push them rather than trying to get the owner to instill them themselves.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I too have seen instances where this has created issues.

Isnt it marketed as 'it's me or the dog'

*oh naughty naughty me back in your box Nekkers*

She uses punishment and is not PP.

If we're being naughty naughty, my view is that if she was a dominant sexy Mexican man rather than a toppy sexy British woman, female dog trainers would fall over themselves to support her methods.

[Nekhbet]

since when does victoria stillwell use a prong, check chain etc ...

following Cesar is more because he's realistic and has a clue, not a stupid costume. Come on I saw her chastise a person for putting their GSD in a crate 'oh get him out of that cage' whoo haaa .... ugh

[SkySoaringMagpie]

since when does victoria stillwell use a prong, check chain etc ...

following Cesar is more because he's realistic and has a clue, not a stupid costume. Come on I saw her chastise a person for putting their GSD in a crate 'oh get him out of that cage' whoo haaa .... ugh

We were talking about punishment, not tools. It is not fair to imply she does not use punishment.

Plenty of people have strong views about training tools, including crates. Crates are deeply unpopular in some parts of the world and with some people. Perhaps because they have seen them misused often enough that they've lost their faith in people's ability to use them properly.

I use crates, before anyone decides that I am a crate-hating tree hugging hippy

[tlc]

since when does victoria stillwell use a prong, check chain etc ...

following Cesar is more because he's realistic and has a clue, not a stupid costume. Come on I saw her chastise a person for putting their GSD in a crate 'oh get him out of that cage' whoo haaa .... ugh

We were talking about punishment, not tools. It is not fair to imply she does not use punishment.

Plenty of people have strong views about training tools, including crates. Crates are deeply unpopular in some parts of the world and with some people. Perhaps because they have seen them misused often enough that they've lost their faith in people's ability to use them properly.

I use crates, before anyone decides that I am a crate-hating tree hugging hippy

I think some people make up thier minds about crates before knowing or seeing the benifits. I was one of them. I always thought they were cruel, until my pup came along. He cried for the first 2 nights solid and I mean solid no break, so on day three I went and got him a crete and we never looked back and now 18 months later he still sleeps in it, and I must admit i have just moved it from next to the bed so now he is over the other side of the room and I can get out of bed with out stubbing my toe on the corner of the crate My other 3 dogs were just angels and settled in so well no crying etc so I never needed to crate them and just thought what is all the hype about crates Pfffft who needs them, I have certainly changed my tune now. I did and do only use the crate for sleeping not for toilet training, I prefer to teach them to go outside, mine ring a bell if I'm not in the room so I know they need to go to the loo. But getting back to the crates I have had a lot of people say to me Gee is Bronson still in the crate to sleep don't you think he is a bit old for that??? Some people have even told me it is cruel to have him sleep in there??? Perfect example of people not understanding how it all works. And it is just a case of what works for some dogs doesn't always work for others, Just like training.

Edited July 16, 2009 by tlc

[Staranais]

I think some people make up thier minds about crates before knowing or seeing the benifits. I was one of them. I always thought they were cruel, until my pup came along. He cried for the first 2 nights solid and I mean solid no break, so on day three I went and got him a crete and we never looked back and now 18 months later he still sleeps in it, and I must admit i have just moved it from next to the bed

I think you're right about that, lots of people make their minds up about tools on first impression, without doing the research properly. But I think it's very disappointing to see a professional, televised dog trainer do the same thing, since it's her job to be educated about how and why to use a tool humanely.

Just to be clear, I saw the episode too. Victoria Stillwell didn't say "that crate's too small" or "the dog needs to spend less time in the crate", neither of which I would have any problem with. She actually cringed away when she saw the dog in the crate, and said something like "oh, oh, that's terrible, get him out, I can't even bear to look at that!" Which IMO is both ridiculous and melodramatic.

It's not just crates. I've heard trainers who should know better rant against prong collars, against check chains, against e-collars, against clickers, against headcollars, and against using food in training. IMO all of those tools can have a place in the training of some dogs, and it's the job of a good trainer to know when and how to use each tool appropriately, even if they choose not to use that tool themselves. A good trainer doesn't just have one or two favourite tools, and remain ignorant about and biased against the others.

So yes, Victoria Stillwell may use some types of punishment, but I still have no respect for her since I think she's uneducated and ignorant.

[Nekhbet]

not using physical punishment when it is required

magpie the point was about the use of PHYSICAL punishment not just 'punishment'. She doesnt use physical punishments at all as far as I can see.

she uses noises to break the dogs concentration and allow an opportunity to redirect, she uses negative punishment where she removes something the dog wants but she does not use physical punishments which IMO she should not say she can fix 'anything'.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Nekhbet

[huski]

I've seen Stilwell use and recommend head collars, not sure if people would class those as 'physical' punishment but they are definitely an aversive tool.

[Cosmolo]

What staranais said

I think thats the second time i've said that today * Mental note to self to ask staranais to write posts for me in future*

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I am not defending Stilwell, it just irritates me when people are characterised as having a training style that they do not have.

No purpose is served by mischaracterising the training approaches of trainers you don't agree with (or just don't like).

[Tonymc]

Its old news but true.Unfortunately dogs end up wearing human issues and dysfunction. Tony

[Christina]

No one will ever convince me aggression is breed specific.

It may often be the owners fault but sometimes it is not.

I have owned a dalmation, a great dane, a doberman, several poodles & 2 chihuahuas.

Only one of all of them had an aggression problem.

The chihuahua. Despite experience, training & common sense & little problems with any other dog I have owned, he was a psycho little bugger no matter what. Turned & bit people once in a while despite being nice & having a fuss off them. No reason, no warning, Tried it with me but backed down, close though. He lived 16 years but only because he was so small & could be kept under reasonable control. If he had been a large dog it would have been goodbye for safety.

Convinced me it is in the breeding not the breed, in some instances.

[sandgrubber]

It is unfortunate that they didn't include extremely HA breeds, eg, the Fila Brasiliero, in the study. I suspect that, had they done so, they would have come to a different conclusion.

The more I read on the Fila, the more I conclude that it is a true example of breeding for hostility to those outside the pack can be successful . . . and that aggression can be inbred. I would encourage others to Google the breed and read what clubs and breeders have to say. Breed advocates, in general, agree that good puppies show "aversion" to strangers from a very early age. Show standards say it's ok for the dog to bite the judge . . . dogs are supposed to be aggressive to strangers. Also, that you need to put a lot of training into your pup if you want to end out with a dog that won't attack your house guests.

Note, this is not an anti-Fila campaign. From what I can gather, the Fila is a lovely breed . . . but dangerous if not managed properly. I think the danger is adequate to justify laws. I have no doubt that the HA tendencies could be bred out if breeders were so inclined. . . .but in general they aren't. Ok in rural Brazil (unless you are an indigenous person who feels it's ok to nick an occasional bovine that has been put on your ancestral land . . . or a jaguar).

I am against BSL for the APBT, Rotti, Dobe, or GSD. But, in principle, I think legislative solutions are appropriate where selective breeding brings out HA or DA potential. It is unfortunate that the law is not skilled enough to affect the cause .. . . breeders who breed for a weapons grade dog or a dog for the fighting ring. I think that blanket anti-BSL attitudes are a denial that aggressive tendencies can be hereditary . . . and thus lessen the pressure to breed for dogs who can easily be trained to standards that are acceptable in Australia (or other places where gunslingers, kidnappers, pirates, and other outlaws don't have a major impact on day to day life).

[paulni]

It is unfortunate that they didn't include extremely HA breeds, eg, the Fila Brasiliero, in the study. I suspect that, had they done so, they would have come to a different conclusion.

The more I read on the Fila, the more I conclude that it is a true example of breeding for hostility to those outside the pack can be successful . . . and that aggression can be inbred. I would encourage others to Google the breed and read what clubs and breeders have to say. Breed advocates, in general, agree that good puppies show "aversion" to strangers from a very early age. Show standards say it's ok for the dog to bite the judge . . . dogs are supposed to be aggressive to strangers. Also, that you need to put a lot of training into your pup if you want to end out with a dog that won't attack your house guests.

Note, this is not an anti-Fila campaign. From what I can gather, the Fila is a lovely breed . . . but dangerous if not managed properly. I think the danger is adequate to justify laws. I have no doubt that the HA tendencies could be bred out if breeders were so inclined. . . .but in general they aren't. Ok in rural Brazil (unless you are an indigenous person who feels it's ok to nick an occasional bovine that has been put on your ancestral land . . . or a jaguar).

I am against BSL for the APBT, Rotti, Dobe, or GSD. But, in principle, I think legislative solutions are appropriate where selective breeding brings out HA or DA potential. It is unfortunate that the law is not skilled enough to affect the cause .. . . breeders who breed for a weapons grade dog or a dog for the fighting ring. I think that blanket anti-BSL attitudes are a denial that aggressive tendencies can be hereditary . . . and thus lessen the pressure to breed for dogs who can easily be trained to standards that are acceptable in Australia (or other places where gunslingers, kidnappers, pirates, and other outlaws don't have a major impact on day to day life).

Well it certainly seems like an anti Fila campaign

What I would like to see is the statistics that show all these people being attacked by Fila's.

The breed is not uncommon in the USA or Europe, but I haven't seen or heard of many attacks.

I think it is worth remembering that a lot of information put out by breeders and clubs in nothing more than hype to sell pups

[paulni]

Sorry double post

Edited July 19, 2009 by paulni

[Rex]

It is unfortunate that they didn't include extremely HA breeds, eg, the Fila Brasiliero, in the study. I suspect that, had they done so, they would have come to a different conclusion.

The more I read on the Fila, the more I conclude that it is a true example of breeding for hostility to those outside the pack can be successful . . . and that aggression can be inbred. I would encourage others to Google the breed and read what clubs and breeders have to say. Breed advocates, in general, agree that good puppies show "aversion" to strangers from a very early age. Show standards say it's ok for the dog to bite the judge . . . dogs are supposed to be aggressive to strangers. Also, that you need to put a lot of training into your pup if you want to end out with a dog that won't attack your house guests.

Note, this is not an anti-Fila campaign. From what I can gather, the Fila is a lovely breed . . . but dangerous if not managed properly. I think the danger is adequate to justify laws. I have no doubt that the HA tendencies could be bred out if breeders were so inclined. . . .but in general they aren't. Ok in rural Brazil (unless you are an indigenous person who feels it's ok to nick an occasional bovine that has been put on your ancestral land . . . or a jaguar).

I am against BSL for the APBT, Rotti, Dobe, or GSD. But, in principle, I think legislative solutions are appropriate where selective breeding brings out HA or DA potential. It is unfortunate that the law is not skilled enough to affect the cause .. . . breeders who breed for a weapons grade dog or a dog for the fighting ring. I think that blanket anti-BSL attitudes are a denial that aggressive tendencies can be hereditary . . . and thus lessen the pressure to breed for dogs who can easily be trained to standards that are acceptable in Australia (or other places where gunslingers, kidnappers, pirates, and other outlaws don't have a major impact on day to day life).

The GSD is one breed that has been toned down from conscious breeding practices to better suit pet homes. Our GSD is an original temperament hard bloodline dog with high civil aggression of type selected for use in Police/security work. It's to the point with GSD's that our necessity to muzzle our boy at the Vets nowdays is an unusual practice where the Vet mentioned not having seen an aggressive GSD for years. The breeders in many show line GSD's have eliminated in many cases, the hard temperament dogs from their breeding stock to result in a more easily handled softer more friendly dog. The breeders who continue to breed the hard line GSD's and working line dogs are a minority and very selective as to whom these dogs are sold to. Although there are some GSD breeders maintaining the hard line dogs, many are producing a more docile version of the breed for pet/suburban applications.

[BullyLife]

Well of course Rex.

You own them.