Alternative To Rmb?

[Staranais]

I don't see anything wrong with feeding a minced diet to younger puppies. Wolf pups spend the first few months after weaning eating regurgitated (= naturally minced) food provided by their parents, so you're not exactly doing anything "unnatural" by feeding your pup a minced diet.

However, I'd personally want to start introducing real RMB as soon as they start getting their adult teeth, unless you're planning on brushing your dogs' teeth every day to stop plaque building up.

Not sure how old your pups are.

[luvsdogs]

When my son's dog was a tiny pup I used to give her chicken necks & she used to swallow them whole & yelp in pain. I tried lamb flaps & cut them into single bone thinking they would be easier for her to handle, my mistake, she swalled them whole & yelped. So I started giving them to her in 2-3 bone pieces. No more problems, she had to chew them. I used to wonder what happened to them as her stools were perfectly normal. I later learned that dogs have the necessary juices in their stomachs to disolve bone.

Here are a couple of links on rmb myths.

http://rawfed.com/myths/digestible.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/ground.html

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

If people are worried about obstructions caused by bones, mostly this is due to cooked bones being fed or found.

Sharp edges? Again, if the bone is cooked this can cause all sorts of problems but again, raw bones don't shatter/splinter in the same way so are generally fine. Poultry bones are very soft and usually BEND rather than shatter or splinter.

I've had one dog with an obstruction and that was because he ate cooked bones and left-overs. I've never had a problem in feeding raw meaty bones ever, and my dogs have been getting raw bones for about 30 yrs now.

If a dog is swallowing whole bones, upsize! Dogs have to exercise their jaws and chewing/gnawing raw bones is PERFECT for this purpose.

I've got three dogs of very different sizes - toy, medium and large. They don't get the same bones; Molly gets a chicken neck or wing tip, whereas Ruby gets no chicken (due to allergies) and Lilly will get large wings or frames or turkey wings. When Ruby gets a fish head, Lilly will too and Molly will get a couple of sardines.

Pups grown on bones generally do very well - you can initially smash them up a bit so the pup gets the idea of what to do, but in a short time, the pup learns that it has to chew the food to get the result. Small breed pups are fed smaller bones, medium breed pups are fed medium bones, and large breed pups are fed large bones.

[Erny]

Question from me : What are the bones in a Roo Tail like? My boy is on a special diet for some health issues that I am hoping we are going to be able to completely overcome. Whilst he's been on this diet, I feed him nothing else. But in a short while I think it will be that I begin to experiment with food variety. As his current diet is predominantly roo meat, I thought I'd begin by introducing roo tails as his "RMB". This with the Vet's advice/blessing as well.

So - are roo tail bones the sort of bone that a dog would gnaw on? Or are they smaller (due to the vertibrae) where a dog can too easily swallow whole?

I have some roo tails sitting in the freezer, ready for the day coming where I can begin to expand on his current diet but due to the meat and the fact they are frozen, I can't tell much about the bone itself.

I too get somewhat nervous about dogs and bones. My previous girl swallowed the knuckle end of a large bone and it resulted in a series of surgeries which of course in turn, knocked her around a lot. But dogs are dogs and just because it is a possibility doesn't mean I will deny my current dog the joy and benefits of gnawing and eating bones. So I continue to do so but I admit I feel the need to be around and I do try to feed the bones that are the least likely to cause trouble.

ETA: I read that in the wild, dogs don't tend to have any problems with 'pointy' or fine bones causing damage, largely because they would have eaten the skin and fur of the animal in question. Apparently the fur tends to catch up in the fine bone in the gut (makes sense) and this protects the gut from damage.

I wonder why they don't include fur in dogs meals? A "pre-bone" appetiser .

Edited July 6, 2009 by Erny

[Quickasyoucan]

I know how you feel, I fed my boy brisket when he was a pup (which at the time I had been told was fine) and he spent the night throwing up little pieces, took me years to be game to give him a bone again and I gave him a big leg bone, cos I figured that would be safe, he chomped off a big piece off the knobly bit of the end and threw that up in the middle of the night

Now I only give whole carcasses, as they have to chew them up pretty well to be able to swallow them, the bones get crushed up and cos the skin holds it all together they cant swallow til it is crushed. I dont give necks or wings, as they chomp once then swallow (Or just swallow and dont chew at all)

My boy could be the last dog in the universe with a mountain of bones in front of him and he would still gulp and inhale his food

Nope mine does that too.

And the chucking up if I give him bigger bones.

If I feed wings I kind of hold on to them till he starts crunching, otherwise it goes straight down

Same with large pieces of meat. I have on occasion fed bits of slightly out of date steak to them and watched as $10.50 worth of steak was inhaled without touching the sides.

Must be a stafford thing ;)

[Nekhbet]

I have had dog eat whole chickens, maryland, wings, necks, turkey bits, duck, lamb flaps, beef bones, necks etc and now they get whole rabbits head and all. Our cats always got raw bones and now even the ferrets get bunny heads and bits. Everyone has shiny coats and pearly white teeth.

no one has ever choked, pierced, bled or died in a horrible way.

stop worrying. Your dogs need bones so get them larger ones like beef spine, beef neck, lamb flaps etc but watch the fat content on the flaps. Your dogs jaws AND gut need exercise.

I'd me more frightened of the supercoat then the bones to be honest.

[mrs tornsocks]

I am totally paranoid too.

My 14 wk old lab has a chew or two on chicken necks and wings then tries to swallow. I have since avoided them.

Bought him a chook frame yesterday then thought that might be too big, chopped off a decent sized bit of that - he chewed once or twice and swallowed. He gagged a couple of times just to add to my anxiety.

Gave him a veal shank over the weekend which he loved (and kept him going for 2 hours) and chomped down to a size that was stripped bare but still too big too swallow ... but made his gums red and bled a little causing more angst - for me.

Next I'll try turkey necks but I'm still not comfy with anything - perhaps when his adult teeth come through I'll try the big lamb and beef bones again

[wuffles]

Have you thought about freezing the bones? My boy eats chicken frames in two bites, but if I freeze them it takes him about 10 minutes as it forces him to chew.

[mrs tornsocks]

Have you thought about freezing the bones? My boy eats chicken frames in two bites, but if I freeze them it takes him about 10 minutes as it forces him to chew.

Actually I have just put the frame in the freezer and thought this may be an option so will give it a go.

thanks

[corvus]

I'd me more frightened of the supercoat then the bones to be honest.

Funny you should say that, because Penny was on Supercoat until she was 9. I switched her to homecooked on the advice of my vet (God bless the man) after several episodes of extreme stomach upsets where she couldn't even keep water down. Within a week of being on homecooked she was acting like a puppy again. After a few months her arthritis had disappeared and she hasn't had a stomach upset since. The Supercoat was evidently not the best of things for her after all.

Penny has a narrow bowel prone to blockages. About half her diet is RMBs. I have had trouble with lamb offcuts and some cooked bones a neighbour fed her, so she doesn't get much lamb unless it's low in fat, which seems to be some of her problem with lamb. Otherwise, everything else has been fine.

Kivi has been on RMBs for about half his diet since he came to us at 8 weeks old. He occassionally eats a wing too fast and has to cough it up for another try, but he's never been unable to do that. When he throws up for some unknown reason, there is often huge bits of bone in it, but nothing like that comes out the other end. Dog guts are incredible. I wish I had a gut like that! We did have a scary moment with a dried pig trotter. He got a bit of it stuck between the two top rows of his teeth, wedged in tight. I had to yank it out. That was our first and last foray into dried bones. A couple of months ago he did the same thing with a little bit of bone he'd been chewing on while lying upside down. I think it was roo shank. So we take the little bones away if he's rolling around on the ground with them.

Incidentally, Erny, we feed roo tail here sometimes. It is very popular, but OH is not keen on the bits of vertebrae left behind. IME, the dogs aren't able to seperate the vertebrae out and spend a lot of time picking bits of meat out between them instead. They are particularly hard work and require paws to hold them still and lots of neck muscles for pulling bits off. The bones don't get eaten, and once all the meat is pulled off they aren't fond of gnawing on the bones as they are unpleasantly hard and pointy. My dogs don't swallow the neck bones from osso bucco, either. They gnaw on them a bit, but they generally only swallow soft bones. They seem to know what they're doing better than I do. ;)

[SparkyTansy]

Erny

Roo tails really depend on size... I have fed my guys some absolutely massive roo tails that they couldn't finish and the bones were very hard... however they do keep them going for AGES because of the amount of meat, tendons etc on the tail. Obviously, the tail tapers so you get smaller bits as well... they are much easier for the dog to chew and swallow the bones and I found the closer to the end the softer the bones seem to be (based on how easily the dogs chomped and ate them). Roo tails are a good alternative but one of mine (the ONLY one allergic to many meats, but not kangaroo) really doesn't seem to like the taste and/or smell and, no matter how much he would kill for any other type of bone, will not touch a roo tail.

[Di*]

If people are worried about obstructions caused by bones, mostly this is due to cooked bones being fed or found.

Sharp edges? Again, if the bone is cooked this can cause all sorts of problems but again, raw bones don't shatter/splinter in the same way so are generally fine. Poultry bones are very soft and usually BEND rather than shatter or splinter.

I've had one dog with an obstruction and that was because he ate cooked bones and left-overs. I've never had a problem in feeding raw meaty bones ever, and my dogs have been getting raw bones for about 30 yrs now.

While cooked bones are clearly more of a risk, raw chicken bones do shatter and shards can become wedged or embedded in a dog's throat--my boy is a survivor of just such an experience. I think being aware of the risks involved (as well as the benefits)--i.e. taking the risk management approach advocated by Poodle Fan is far superior than denying or ignoring the risks involved.

Di

[stormie]

If you're nervous, I'd start with smaller turkey necks. Big enough to need a good chew, but the bone segments in them would be small enough to be unlikely to cause a problem should a chunk be swallowed whole.

[raffikki]

Thanks again to everyone for replying

Again I know it is a problem I have, NOT the pups. It's me that's scared, they did seem to chew the wings quite well

I even email their breeder with my concerns and of course she replied the same as the majority of replys in this thread.

They are dogs they were created to crush and eat bone and flesh you need to keep that in mind...

*****(one of her keepers) is a pig and sometimes she brings up a bit 2 or 3 times until she learns to slow down and chew properly...

Its just like watching your child ride a bike for the first time without training wheels...you knows there's a real good chance their gunna hurt themselves but they are kids they need to experience the world and so long as we are there to supervise when they are little we need to give the room they need to grow and develop as little humans, its the same with pups they are made to eat bones so as long as u stick to ones they can manage you will be fine

Stick to necks and wings i don't give anything bigger than they can handle....both my girls crunch these up like dog biscuits now, the more practice they have the stronger their jaws get and the more capable they get at eating...

Not sure how old your pups are.

Electra is 14weeks today and Rhino is 13 weeks tomorrow

When my son's dog was a tiny pup I used to give her chicken necks & she used to swallow them whole & yelp in pain. I tried lamb flaps & cut them into single bone thinking they would be easier for her to handle, my mistake, she swalled them whole & yelped. So I started giving them to her in 2-3 bone pieces. No more problems, she had to chew them. I used to wonder what happened to them as her stools were perfectly normal. I later learned that dogs have the necessary juices in their stomachs to disolve bone.

Here are a couple of links on rmb myths.

http://rawfed.com/myths/digestible.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/ground.html

Thanks for those links, they do help(a little) easing my concerns!

[megan_]

What about trying really big bones at first that he can't swollow?

I too was worried about them eating bones, but it is all a case of risk vs reward. Your dog can get loose from it's leash and get hit by a car, so should you stop walking it?

Mine now eat wings every night and they cope just fine - they are different from us. When I stepped on a bone fragment left over from the feast it hurt like hell - but they seem to swollow the same pieces just fine. I'm sure something bad could happen, but the benefits of a natural diet outweigh the slight risks IMO.

[wish_4_cockerspaniel]

I've got three dogs of very different sizes - toy, medium and large. They don't get the same bones; Molly gets a chicken neck or wing tip, whereas Ruby gets no chicken (due to allergies) and Lilly will get large wings or frames or turkey wings. When Ruby gets a fish head, Lilly will too and Molly will get a couple of sardines.

Hi Lillysmum - just curious so hope you don't mind me asking, how did you work out Ruby was allergic to chicken, and what does she get instead? Our pup is quite an itchy scratchy little one, I'm thinking I'll need to eliminate one food at a time and see how he goes as convinced it's food that's causing it... but wondering what chicken allergy "looks like" (if that's not too generic?!)

I'm going to risk chicken wings again this weekend, he does the necks with ease now!!

What bigger bones do people use to leave them chewing?

We make up BARF-ish food for his dinner, gotta say I love making his food, smells ace and he loves it!

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I've got three dogs of very different sizes - toy, medium and large. They don't get the same bones; Molly gets a chicken neck or wing tip, whereas Ruby gets no chicken (due to allergies) and Lilly will get large wings or frames or turkey wings. When Ruby gets a fish head, Lilly will too and Molly will get a couple of sardines.

Hi Lillysmum - just curious so hope you don't mind me asking, how did you work out Ruby was allergic to chicken, and what does she get instead? Our pup is quite an itchy scratchy little one, I'm thinking I'll need to eliminate one food at a time and see how he goes as convinced it's food that's causing it... but wondering what chicken allergy "looks like" (if that's not too generic?!)

I'm going to risk chicken wings again this weekend, he does the necks with ease now!!

What bigger bones do people use to leave them chewing?

We make up BARF-ish food for his dinner, gotta say I love making his food, smells ace and he loves it!

It's been a very long and slow process for us and Ruby. She's always been an itchy dog but we always assumed it was a contact allergy until recently. I fed her some processed food (which they don't get very often) and she reacted strongly - hives all over her body and she threw up repeatedly within about an hour or two of being fed. Because of the severe reaction she was off to the vet...we started an elimination diet about 10 weeks ago. We started with fish and sweet potato (only two ingredients, either raw or cooked). She had to be on just the two foods for six weeks, nothing else at all. Unfortunately my husband fed her some chicken while I was away, so she reacted to that - strong reaction - she threw up repeatedly within an hour of being fed the chicken.

After the six weeks was up, we could add one ingredient per week and wait for a reaction (or not, hopefully). She's had eggs (reaction, within 24 hours), yoghurt (reaction, mild, within 5 days)...and we were supposed to start canola oil on Saturday but she's still recovering from the yoghurt reaction (still itchy but she's also got contact allergies to add to the confusion).

I feed the other two an almost completely raw diet and would like to get Ruby back to raw once we know what foods are safe. This process could take months or years...but as we trial each food we learn more about how best to help her manage the reactions. By the way, she's 9 yrs old...and a staffy cross rescued from the RSPCA years ago. She's got to be one of the most expensive dogs we've had but we love her dearly!

I've started a thread in Health for her allergies/food trial so DOLers can see how it works and keep up with Ruby's progress.

[wish_4_cockerspaniel]

It's been a very long and slow process for us and Ruby. She's always been an itchy dog but we always assumed it was a contact allergy until recently. I fed her some processed food (which they don't get very often) and she reacted strongly - hives all over her body and she threw up repeatedly within about an hour or two of being fed. Because of the severe reaction she was off to the vet...we started an elimination diet about 10 weeks ago. We started with fish and sweet potato (only two ingredients, either raw or cooked). She had to be on just the two foods for six weeks, nothing else at all. Unfortunately my husband fed her some chicken while I was away, so she reacted to that - strong reaction - she threw up repeatedly within an hour of being fed the chicken.

I've started a thread in Health for her allergies/food trial so DOLers can see how it works and keep up with Ruby's progress.

Poor Ruby - and poor you working through this time consuming process! But so lovely to hear how much you love your dog to make sure she gets what she needs. Hope you find something that suits her on the next 6 week run, fingers crossed for you!

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

It's been a very long and slow process for us and Ruby. She's always been an itchy dog but we always assumed it was a contact allergy until recently. I fed her some processed food (which they don't get very often) and she reacted strongly - hives all over her body and she threw up repeatedly within about an hour or two of being fed. Because of the severe reaction she was off to the vet...we started an elimination diet about 10 weeks ago. We started with fish and sweet potato (only two ingredients, either raw or cooked). She had to be on just the two foods for six weeks, nothing else at all. Unfortunately my husband fed her some chicken while I was away, so she reacted to that - strong reaction - she threw up repeatedly within an hour of being fed the chicken.

I've started a thread in Health for her allergies/food trial so DOLers can see how it works and keep up with Ruby's progress.

Poor Ruby - and poor you working through this time consuming process! But so lovely to hear how much you love your dog to make sure she gets what she needs. Hope you find something that suits her on the next 6 week run, fingers crossed for you!

Thanks!

It's now a weekly process - introduce one new food on a set day (I've gone with Saturday) and see if there's a reaction. So far both eggs and yoghurt have resulted in reactions but I'm hoping that canola oil (next on the list) will be okay.

She's a beautiful dog...and worth every single moment of effort (just not so sure about the expense, that's all! ).

[mrs tornsocks]

Hi all, and to raffikki the original OP here.

Wanted to let you know that I have succesfully given my 14 wk old boy a turkey wing pieces as his RMB a few times now and we are both very happy !

I was/am also very nervous about rmbs as he's not the greatest chewer ... but these seem to work really well and hopefully he's learning to chew more in the process. It was really a bit of trial and error for me so I'm glad I persisted (and so is he, he licks his chops for ages afterwards )