Are Canine Rules Bsl?

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Sounds like a fantastic and quality breed.

In Brazil the dog has to pass tempermant testing before bieng awarded a title that would seem pretty obtuse to most in this country.

The standard also says

Courage, determination and outstanding braveness are part of his characteristics. He is docile to his owners and family and extremely tolerant with children. His faithfulness became a Brazilian proverb. He is always looking for the company of his master. One of his characteristics is hi s distrust (orig. ojeriza) of strangers. He shows a calm disposition, self assurance and self confidence not being disturbed by strange noises or when facing a new environment. An unsurpassed guardian of the property he is as well dedicated by instinct to hunt big game and to cattle herding.

So in other words its like the breeds we already have only better because its been bred and tested for tempermant and form not just form.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Lo Pan

[sandgrubber]

You cant go off of everything you read without having experienced it first hand.

So true.......

But, again, there are some things I'd rather not experience first hand.

Can you imagine being a judge at a specialty show for the fila. How exciting to do the routine testicle and tooth check on a 50+ kg dog who was given credit toward the Ch. title for showing aggression to the judge. No way.

I know the breed isn't represented in Australia . . . and I have no problem that the breed is banned. That may be the only place where I'm glad of BSL. But there are limits.

The point is that BSL isn't simple, all or nothing. I think decisions regarding dog legislation need to be made on a case by case basis. For me, it is enough to know the dog is massive and being selectively bred -- by the breed standard -- to be aggressive to strangers, to say I'm in favor of banning the breed from Australia. The more I learn about the APBT, the more I'm against legislating against the breed.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

For me, it is enough to know ...

Well thats a very ignorant attitude.

What about all the other guarding breeds, and dogs which are used for guarding ? They lack the correct tempermant, that is what makes them dangerous. A dog which is confident and self assured in the face of a threat is a safe and reliable guard dog. The standard also says it is docile with family and tolerant of children or did you miss that part.

[bulldogz4eva]

Can you imagine being a judge at a specialty show for the fila. How exciting to do the routine testicle and tooth check on a 50+ kg dog who was given credit toward the Ch. title for showing aggression to the judge. No way.

I know the breed isn't represented in Australia . . . and I have no problem that the breed is banned. That may be the only place where I'm glad of BSL. But there are limits.

The point is that BSL isn't simple, all or nothing. I think decisions regarding dog legislation need to be made on a case by case basis. For me, it is enough to know the dog is massive and being selectively bred -- by the breed standard -- to be aggressive to strangers, to say I'm in favor of banning the breed from Australia. The more I learn about the APBT, the more I'm against legislating against the breed.

The judge is not supposed to lay his hands on the dog as that would be foolish depending on the individual.My understanding is that standard is taken from the Cafib standard.I dont think they do TT at American Rare Breed Association Shows as art pf the judging.Fila TT is usually done separately and is open to other breeds in the states.Cafib in Brazil do it as part of the judging and the judge knows and expects it so there are no surprises.I think you are reading a bit to much into it.Read the breed standard for the Rottweiler or orther large breeds and if they all lived up to the standard you would never need any other dog but they dont.There is variation in every breed as far as temperament goes and not every Fila is going to be a man eater and like every dog you get out what you put in.If you encourage it thats what you wil get if you dont you will have a more controllable animal.Simple dog training 101.They are dogs not lions.

Anyway nopoint debating it as we arent going to own one any time soon.lol.

[sandgrubber]

Read the breed standard for the Rottweiler or orther large breeds ...

BREED STANDARD FOR ROTTWEILER

Temperament

Behaviour and character. Being good natured, placid in basic disposition and fond of children, he is very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behaviour self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness.

As I understand it there is no test of biting tendency or expectation of distrust / hostility toward strangers at a Rottweiler specialty show . . . and a lot of running. If Rotti specialty shows began including the tests described for a Fila, I have no doubt there would be a good deal of discussion of directing BSL against Rottis, and probably they would end out banned. The Rotti breeders I know do not find aversion to strangers a positive trait.

See also, the following description, written by Fila breeder, Hon. Secretary of CAFIB, and MM-Correspondent for Brazil, AmericoCardoso dos Santos, Jr. (clipped from http://www.dog-pictures.co.uk/dog-pictures...asileiro.shtml)

"Ojeriza" to strangers

The feature that perhaps is at first sight the most apparent in a Fila's temperament is the "ojeriza" to strangers (ojeriza - sharp aversion). On the contrary to other puppies, a Fila Puppy is not inclined to relaxed playing with anyone. He attaches himself quickly to those with whom he lives but is, however, from his earliest youth suspicious of persons he does not know. Suspicion may make him irritated and annoyed and to some extent even make him growl with a certain amount of aggression, but yet without sufficient self-confidence to attack. In the course of his development the aversion against strangers will become more and more apparent. Already as a puppy the Fila will clearly show his displeasure if a stranger would try to touch him. At about the age of one year the Fila would attack any person unknown to him who would try to touch him.

An agitated or restless disposition in a Fila is highly undesirable as it may be a symptom of nervousness and insecurity. One must remember that the Fila needs provocation in order to attack, for example, when an unknown person stares at him fixedly (as a challenge). Here it becomes evident another typical feature of the Fila: his courage will not allow him to move one step back when facing a provocation of any kind. No matter which instrument is used for the temperament test (rod, broom, towel, chair, etc.) the Fila's reaction is always prompt. spontaneous, and without any sign of insecurity. He throws himself forward and upwards (making the characteristic diagonal ascent, mentioned in the CAFIB-standard) attempting to reach the face or the throat of the aggressor. Exactly at this point the Fila differs from other dogs (like German Shepherds) who attack only when ordered, doing what they have been taught to do, showing rather the extent of their conditioning than true courage and instinctive reaction against aggression.

I don't know the Fila well . . . but came to appreciate them when I lived in Brazil.

[GeckoTree]

I think they just pulled names out of hats, if the fila cant be imported because it has distrust of strangers or its "Ojeriza" ?, then this breed which has the same distrust can be, nothing stops someone from finding alternatives. If they cant get hold of one thing they can get it in another.

Standard: Caucasian Shepherd (Caucasian Ovtcharka) http://www.arba.org/CaucasianOvtcharkaBS.htm

Typically ferocious towards, and distrustful of strangers.

Edited July 11, 2009 by RebLT

[bulldogz4eva]

think they just pulled names out of hats, if the fila cant be imported because it has distrust of strangers or its "Ojeriza" ?, then this breed which has the same distrust can be, nothing stops someone from finding alternatives. If they cant get hold of one thing they can get it in another.

You hit the nail on the head my friend and I dont like to drop names so i didnt name that breed but thats what I was thinking.They are much bigger than Fila's on the whole and that definitely dont like strangers either.

[bulldogz4eva]

BREED STANDARD FOR ROTTWEILER

Temperament

Behaviour and character. Being good natured, placid in basic disposition and fond of children, he is very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behaviour self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness.

As I understand it there is no test of biting tendency or expectation of distrust / hostility toward strangers at a Rottweiler specialty show . . . and a lot of running. If Rotti specialty shows began including the tests described for a Fila, I have no doubt there would be a good deal of discussion of directing BSL against Rottis, and probably they would end out banned. The Rotti breeders I know do not find aversion to strangers a positive trait.

I think you are misinterpreting what I was saying.What I meant is you cant go word for word by every breed standard that was written and think every dog within the breed is going to be exactly that.A Fila TT isnt undertaken by every dog and as I said I am not aware that the ARBA actually do it at their shows.Cafib do.Not every dog is going to pass it as not everyone has it in them.The other Rare breed people use the Fila TT as a test for their dogs.I wasnt hinting that Rotties should do it at all.Rotties dont need any help in getting banned.Right across the US whenever they mention banning breeds the pitbull gets mentioned and the Rottie is not far behind,Depends what you mean by aversion to strangers.There are circumstances where it is warranted,lets say on your own property in the middle of the night when people come around that shouldnt be there.

I have been to Brazil too.

[sandgrubber]

If any breed -- rare or not -- as part of their show routine included tests and criteria that have the effect of causing breeders to systematically breed for human or dog aggression, I think it is appropriate to direct Breed Specific Legislation against that breed. In my opinion, breeding for Human Aggression should not be acceptable in Australia.

A shephard-type protecting herds against wolves, and getting tough with people who come up to the house is one thing. Grading pups according to how nasty they are to unfamiliar people, or allowing a dog to bite the judge at a show is quite a different thing. Sure, there are less aggressive pups . . . but they are graded as inferior by leading breeders.

Claiming a heritage of chasing down escaped slaves, and then after slavery ended, cornering jaguars (onca) and cattle thieves, is not a good look. I'm sure the Fila would make a great pig dog. I'm glad no one has been able to import them.

The Rotti's heritage is as an all purpose farm dog in country that has suffered a lot of warfare and where peasant dwellings have high walls and have historically liked a dog that acts as a guard. That is a long shot away from the Fila's heritage.

[paulni]

I think the thing to remember here is who wrote the breed standard and how they raise there dogs.

The Brazilians want there dogs to guard and in a lot of cases need them to. The dogs are raised with no socialization at all,in fact the pups are deliberately kept away from strangers. The only people who have contact with them are the immediate family and friends. Raised in this manner of cause they won't allow them selves to be handled by strangers. When raised with proper socialization they will except strangers and will allow judges to handle them just like any other breed.

The dogs are regularly shown in Europe and USA and are handled in the normal manner.

Having lived with Fila's for many years I guess it would be fair to say unlike most of the posters here i do have extensive first hand experience with them. They have not been involved in a single attack here in my home country and you will struggle to find a single owner anywhere that has been attacked by there own dog. This is not the case with most of the guardian breeds that often have dominance problems. I remember reading a story about an early German import into the USA of another well known breed not a Fila The dog became a champion even with several missing teeth, because the judges had never dared look into his mouth. The dogs progeny raised in the normal manner were all perfectly behaved in the show ring.

[RottnBullies]

Having lived with Fila's for many years I guess it would be fair to say unlike most of the posters here i do have extensive first hand experience with them. They have not been involved in a single attack here in my home country and you will struggle to find a single owner anywhere that has been attacked by there own dog. This is not the case with most of the guardian breeds that often have dominance problems. I remember reading a story about an early German import into the USA of another well known breed not a Fila The dog became a champion even with several missing teeth, because the judges had never dared look into his mouth. The dogs progeny raised in the normal manner were all perfectly behaved in the show ring.

Great to see a post from someone who has had hands on experience with this breed, thanks for posting that paulni, I hope this will clarify It somewhat not to cast stones on a breed on just by what Is written

[bulldogz4eva]

A shephard-type protecting herds against wolves, and getting tough with people who come up to the house is one thing. Grading pups according to how nasty they are to unfamiliar people, or allowing a dog to bite the judge at a show is quite a different thing. Sure, there are less aggressive pups . . . but they are graded as inferior by leading breeders.

Claiming a heritage of chasing down escaped slaves, and then after slavery ended, cornering jaguars (onca) and cattle thieves, is not a good look. I'm sure the Fila would make a great pig dog. I'm glad no one has been able to import them.

I think you are taking it way out of context and looking through your ANKC glasses.Like Paul said handled correctly they arent as big a problem but they dont like strangers.I dont have a problem with that and I would have one over a Rottie any day of the week,but hey thats just me.

Having lived with Fila's for many years I guess it would be fair to say unlike most of the posters here i do have extensive first hand experience with them. They have not been involved in a single attack here in my home country and you will struggle to find a single owner anywhere that has been attacked by there own dog. This is not the case with most of the guardian breeds that often have dominance problems. I remember reading a story about an early German import into the USA of another well known breed not a Fila The dog became a champion even with several missing teeth, because the judges had never dared look into his mouth. The dogs progeny raised in the normal manner were all perfectly behaved in the show ring.

Here here.Almost zero chance of them truning on their owner its just not in their nature.The Brazilians didnt coin the phrase "Faithful as a Fila" for nothing.

Edited July 12, 2009 by bulldogz4eva

[tybrax]

I think the thing to remember here is who wrote the breed standard and how they raise there dogs.

The Brazilians want there dogs to guard and in a lot of cases need them to. The dogs are raised with no socialization at all,in fact the pups are deliberately kept away from strangers. The only people who have contact with them are the immediate family and friends. Raised in this manner of cause they won't allow them selves to be handled by strangers. When raised with proper socialization they will except strangers and will allow judges to handle them just like any other breed.

The dogs are regularly shown in Europe and USA and are handled in the normal manner.

Having lived with Fila's for many years I guess it would be fair to say unlike most of the posters here i do have extensive first hand experience with them. They have not been involved in a single attack here in my home country and you will struggle to find a single owner anywhere that has been attacked by there own dog. This is not the case with most of the guardian breeds that often have dominance problems. I remember reading a story about an early German import into the USA of another well known breed not a Fila The dog became a champion even with several missing teeth, because the judges had never dared look into his mouth. The dogs progeny raised in the normal manner were all perfectly behaved in the show ring.

Excellent post Paulini

[chrisjc]

your talking in your original post as your actaully know what your talking about, which is stupid because you have no experience with these dogs, so realy who are you to judge? judgment like that is the reason laws like this exist.

Edited September 21, 2009 by chrisjc

[Nekhbet]

I think people need to understand the difference between human aggression and a genuine ability to protect and hunt.

any working dog should conform to the filas behaviors. The working rottweiler, the working shepherd, the working dobe

they should be brave, loyal and stable temperament

but no. We're so scared of a real dog we water them down to pretty garden ornaments that flinch at the sound of their own farts. You know what? Not everyone should own a dog, and even less have need or should own a guarding breed. This prediliction that we HAVE to own the dog of our dreams is ridiculous. I want a koenigsegg but all I can do is bolt a badged body kit onto my commodore and make prrrrrrtttttt VROOOM noises as I drive. It's sad really.

[sandgrubber]

I think people need to understand the difference between human aggression and a genuine ability to protect and hunt.

any working dog should conform to the filas behaviors. The working rottweiler, the working shepherd, the working dobe

they should be brave, loyal and stable temperament

but no. We're so scared of a real dog we water them down to pretty garden ornaments that flinch at the sound of their own farts.

The fila was bred to chase runaway slaves and adapted to hunt jaguars and cattle rustlers . . . in a frontier environment where GBH to trespassers is widely accepted. They are expected to be aggressive to strangers, and it's taken as true to breed if they bite the judge at a dog show. They may be graded for proper aggressive behaviour while their age is counted in weeks, with the 'friendly' pups being rejected. If this is a 'real dog', then I think 'real dogs' are too dangerous to be kept as pets. If working rottis, shephards and dobes were this extreme, I think there would be a basis for banning them from built-up areas -- or requiring the owner to have a license to keep them.

If people and dogs are to live together in urban and suburban areas, I think that restrictions on breeds selected for extremely aggressive temperament are warranted: particularly given the volume of evidence that there are a lot of idiots out there who think it's cool to have a vicious dog and see it draw blood.

Edited September 26, 2009 by sandgrubber

[Nekhbet]

so? what about the south african Boerboel? The CAO? Dogue de Bordeaux?

what is the history of these dogs and other guarding, hunting, fighting breeds?

I see more of the average dogs with weak temperaments as a risk to society. How many weak nerved guarding and herding breeds hurt people in this country before the well bred and trained ones?

If the Fila was truely a maniac dog it would tear its owner to shreds as well. They choose dogs with workability and natural drive to suit the purpose. Sounds extreme but that is the environment it comes from. Saying that there is nothing to say, as Paulni has stated, that under more normal conditions the dog will not conform to living in a normal environment with socialisation. The dog obviously has a good temperament and is not flightly what is wrong with that?

[chrisjc]

weak owner equals weak dog ,plain and simple . we all know a well trained animal is no threat to any one.

those judges you are going on about tend to raz the dogs up a little bit to get the reaction they want, if the dog doesnt react then points are bad.

i have even seen footage of them with a stick alot like a protection dog being tested. if you were using a gsd or a rottie that was trained to gaurd and protect and it didnt react, you would be disapointed too.

opinions are great but knowledge allways comes from first hand experience.

a retrieving dog should do just that and naturally, a hunter using one would not let a dog work without proper training.

a herding dog does it naturally, but you wouldnt work an untrained cattle dog, and just jump straight into work and expect it to read your mind it just wouldnt work out, they need to be trained.

a protection dog ie, a fila naturally protects, its their job ,but you wouldnt just let it do what it wants would you? you would train it and bring its qualities out, and then you would have a stable dog.

i thought all that would be obvious but i see that it isnt. working dogs are just that, working dogs, they have their place but they are not for everyone.

Edited September 30, 2009 by chrisjc