Are Canine Rules Bsl?

[sandgrubber]

I find BSL perplexing.

I am glad Australia has prohibitions against importing Filho Brasiliero . . . given that they are huge and the breed standard specifies that they should be hostile to strangers. I have no doubt it's possible to breed man-killers and if anyone is doing this, as an individual, or as a breed, I think they deserve a kick where it hurts, as well as castration of their breeding stock.

It gets much more confusing where some lines in the breed have been bred for HA or powerful and extreme protective behaviour. I don't feel it's justified to ban an entire breed because some breeders are bad eggs.

Unfortunately, governments aren't good at finding the bad eggs.

On the other hand, I find it very very sad that some breed standards prohibit the registration of some colours (white in boxers and GSD's) and many breeders systematically cull pups that don't conform to breed standards. And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

[APBT]

I find BSL perplexing.

I am glad Australia has prohibitions against importing Filho Brasiliero . . . given that they are huge and the breed standard specifies that they should be hostile to strangers. I have no doubt it's possible to breed man-killers and if anyone is doing this, as an individual, or as a breed, I think they deserve a kick where it hurts, as well as castration of their breeding stock.

It gets much more confusing where some lines in the breed have been bred for HA or powerful and extreme protective behaviour. I don't feel it's justified to ban an entire breed because some breeders are bad eggs.

Unfortunately, governments aren't good at finding the bad eggs.

On the other hand, I find it very very sad that some breed standards prohibit the registration of some colours (white in boxers and GSD's) and many breeders systematically cull pups that don't conform to breed standards. And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

maybe because the greyhound is not a restricted breed.

[sandgrubber]

I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

maybe because the greyhound is not a restricted breed.

Isn't the requirement that they wear muzzles in public a restriction? It is unquestionably BSL.

[bryan_mannix]

I am interested in this too. I have always been opposed to BSL in principle mostly because that is what wiser heads in the dog world have told me too think

But

Are we in the purebred community sending mixed messages. On the one hand saying that buying a pure bred will provide the owner (amongst other things) some certainty as to the appearance, physical capacity and temperament of the dog. Then do we contradict ourselves by saying BSL is unfair as it places generalisations upon breeds.

I strongly believe that some breeds are a bigger danger due to their size, athleticism, drive and protective natures. How do we acknowledge this and ensure owners of these animals are responsible. I am certain that if the APBT is driven to extinction those would be owners purchasing them to compensate for a small penis will just turn to another breed.

I am also uneasy about "soft" versions of some breeds being produced to make them "better" as pets. GSDs who whimper if you blow your nose too loud for example. This is not who these dogs are supposed (who says!) to be.

What alternatives to BSL are palatable to the media and the politicians who feed off them. Targeting individual owners and dogs seems to be a problem as we have to wait for an attack to occur then respond. A little like waiting for a death at a rail crossing before installing boom gates.

Could certain breeds cost more to register unless the owner has completed and passed so many hours of obedience training???

Perhaps some minimum penis length required to own a muscle dog?

[Greytmate]

And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

The anti-BSL community employ totally different tactics to those used by us when we were lobbying to have the muzzle law changed.

After five years of hard work, we have success.

[Rex]

I am interested in this too. I have always been opposed to BSL in principle mostly because that is what wiser heads in the dog world have told me too think

But

Are we in the purebred community sending mixed messages. On the one hand saying that buying a pure bred will provide the owner (amongst other things) some certainty as to the appearance, physical capacity and temperament of the dog. Then do we contradict ourselves by saying BSL is unfair as it places generalisations upon breeds.

I strongly believe that some breeds are a bigger danger due to their size, athleticism, drive and protective natures. How do we acknowledge this and ensure owners of these animals are responsible. I am certain that if the APBT is driven to extinction those would be owners purchasing them to compensate for a small penis will just turn to another breed.

I am also uneasy about "soft" versions of some breeds being produced to make them "better" as pets. GSDs who whimper if you blow your nose too loud for example. This is not who these dogs are supposed (who says!) to be.

What alternatives to BSL are palatable to the media and the politicians who feed off them. Targeting individual owners and dogs seems to be a problem as we have to wait for an attack to occur then respond. A little like waiting for a death at a rail crossing before installing boom gates.

Could certain breeds cost more to register unless the owner has completed and passed so many hours of obedience training???

Perhaps some minimum penis length required to own a muscle dog?

The BSL is essentially a legislation that discourages or prevents the ownership of specific breeds that possess the potential of extreme strength and courage with the ability to fight that is considered unsuitable for the general population to handle such breeds safely and effectively. The breeds listed by the BSL consist of the Fila Brasiliero, Dogo Argintino, Japanese Tosa, Presa Canario and the American Pit Bull Terrier. None of these breeds are recognised or supported by the Australian National Kennel Club (ANKC) Australia's major canine controlling body.

Anti BSL campaigners are primarily connected with or owners of backyard bred extracts of the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) that the BSL legislation effected the ownership and breeding practices of these animals to eventually create extinction which they object. Anti BSL has little importance other than to legalise the breeding and ownership of the APBT and mixtures of ultimately motivated and driven by self interest.

The BSL legislation does not affect the future of any breeds recognised and supported by the ANKC.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Rex

[tybrax]

Rex are you an animal control officer???????

Congratulations Greymate job well done

tybrax

[Zhou Xuanyao]

There is nothing wrong with the breed standard for the Fila saying it should be hostile to strangers. If infact it does I havnt read it.

Where its kept thats what its used for, I suppose. Iv got a few friends from various African countries for example. They say that "pet" dogs dont exist. Dogs are used for guarding home and business and they have to be ferocious. Different worlds its easy to critisize here in Australia from the lap of luxury but other people do need working dogs.

Many of the ANKC breeds have the same background. Some in the distant past, some in the not so distant past, and some which still work overseas. Here we breed them as pets and we end up with dogs that remain aloof and make good candidates for guard dogs if trained, but otherwise make excellent family pets. That would be the goal with the fila brasileiro aswell.

The other restricted breeds are all common family pets including the Dogo and the Tosa which are show/pet bred in Europe and the USA. Id imagine Australian breeders would look at dogs from the Netherlands, for example, as opposed to Haiti.

Edited July 7, 2009 by calsonic350z

[WreckitWhippet]

And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

The anti-BSL community employ totally different tactics to those used by us when we were lobbying to have the muzzle law changed.

After five years of hard work, we have success.

It certainly wasn't achieved with the attitude of stuff the legislation and displays of non compliance.

[BJean]

I am glad Australia has prohibitions against importing Filho Brasiliero . . . given that they are huge and the breed standard specifies that they should be hostile to strangers. I have no doubt it's possible to breed man-killers and if anyone is doing this, as an individual, or as a breed, I think they deserve a kick where it hurts, as well as castration of their breeding stock.

It gets much more confusing where some lines in the breed have been bred for HA or powerful and extreme protective behaviour. I don't feel it's justified to ban an entire breed because some breeders are bad eggs.

Unfortunately, governments aren't good at finding the bad eggs.

On the other hand, I find it very very sad that some breed standards prohibit the registration of some colours (white in boxers and GSD's) and many breeders systematically cull pups that don't conform to breed standards. And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

hostility to strangers is what allows some dogs to work ie to carry out thir purpose.

without that innate ability to confront and contend, they cannot do the jobs that are expected of them.

Likewise dogs that don't have this capacity, cannot do the jobs that "big dogs with extreme protective behaviour" are expected to do.

Breeders aren't being bad eggs.

They are in fact being good breeders, by keeping their breed(s) sound and steady, though yes with a temperamental capacity very different to many other breeds of dogs, such as your everyday labardor

Edited July 8, 2009 by lilli

[Guest rhapsodical78]

And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

The anti-BSL community employ totally different tactics to those used by us when we were lobbying to have the muzzle law changed.

After five years of hard work, we have success. :rolleyes:

It certainly wasn't achieved with the attitude of stuff the legislation and displays of non compliance.

Are you suggesting that the entire anti-BSL community has that attitude and is non-compliant?

[Guest rhapsodical78]

I am glad Australia has prohibitions against importing Filho Brasiliero . . . given that they are huge and the breed standard specifies that they should be hostile to strangers. I have no doubt it's possible to breed man-killers and if anyone is doing this, as an individual, or as a breed, I think they deserve a kick where it hurts, as well as castration of their breeding stock.

It gets much more confusing where some lines in the breed have been bred for HA or powerful and extreme protective behaviour. I don't feel it's justified to ban an entire breed because some breeders are bad eggs.

Unfortunately, governments aren't good at finding the bad eggs.

On the other hand, I find it very very sad that some breed standards prohibit the registration of some colours (white in boxers and GSD's) and many breeders systematically cull pups that don't conform to breed standards. And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

hostility to strangers is what allows some dogs to work ie to carry out thir purpose.

without that innate ability to confront and contend, they cannot do the jobs that are expected of them.

Likewise dogs that don't have this capacity, cannot do the jobs that "big dogs with extreme protective behaviour" are expected to do.

Breeders aren't being bad eggs.

They are in fact being good breeders, by keeping their breed(s) sound and steady, though yes with a temperamental capacity very different to many other breeds of dogs, such as your everyday labardor :rolleyes:

Exactly. Well said.

[WreckitWhippet]

And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

The anti-BSL community employ totally different tactics to those used by us when we were lobbying to have the muzzle law changed.

After five years of hard work, we have success. :rolleyes:

It certainly wasn't achieved with the attitude of stuff the legislation and displays of non compliance.

Are you suggesting that the entire anti-BSL community has that attitude and is non-compliant?

Let's just say that there are numerous owners who frequently pop their heads up in threads and sprout about their non compliance and stuff the legislation. As PF says, your worst enemies and biggest downfall are in the Pitbulls own ranks.

[Guest rhapsodical78]

And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

The anti-BSL community employ totally different tactics to those used by us when we were lobbying to have the muzzle law changed.

After five years of hard work, we have success. :rolleyes:

It certainly wasn't achieved with the attitude of stuff the legislation and displays of non compliance.

Are you suggesting that the entire anti-BSL community has that attitude and is non-compliant?

Let's just say that there are numerous owners who frequently pop their heads up in threads and sprout about their non compliance and stuff the legislation. As PF says, your worst enemies and biggest downfall are in the Pitbulls own ranks.

You're taking a few online examples and applying them to the global multitude of individuals who don't agree with the principles of Breed Specific Legislation. Don't you think that might be a bit of a generalisation?

Besides, I think the achievements mentioned, while laudable, are just a part of the wider scope of BSL. These angsty, crazed, irrational rabble-rousing BSL advocates that you mention have lives at stake. Muzzling a dog is one thing - you can abide by that fairly easily - killing a dog entirely another.

Not only that but the media is much more focused on breeds other than the greyhound, which makes the task of law changing that much more difficult.

[doit4thedogz]

I am glad Australia has prohibitions against importing Filho Brasiliero . . . given that they are huge and the breed standard specifies that they should be hostile to strangers. I have no doubt it's possible to breed man-killers and if anyone is doing this, as an individual, or as a breed, I think they deserve a kick where it hurts, as well as castration of their breeding stock.

It gets much more confusing where some lines in the breed have been bred for HA or powerful and extreme protective behaviour. I don't feel it's justified to ban an entire breed because some breeders are bad eggs.

Unfortunately, governments aren't good at finding the bad eggs.

On the other hand, I find it very very sad that some breed standards prohibit the registration of some colours (white in boxers and GSD's) and many breeders systematically cull pups that don't conform to breed standards. And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

hostility to strangers is what allows some dogs to work ie to carry out thir purpose.

without that innate ability to confront and contend, they cannot do the jobs that are expected of them.

Likewise dogs that don't have this capacity, cannot do the jobs that "big dogs with extreme protective behaviour" are expected to do.

Breeders aren't being bad eggs.

They are in fact being good breeders, by keeping their breed(s) sound and steady, though yes with a temperamental capacity very different to many other breeds of dogs, such as your everyday labardor :rolleyes:

The trouble starts when breeders start pumping out litters and selling them to anyone, teenages, families, etc. Some working dogs are best kept by people who understand them and work them, not as family pets, nanny dogs, accessories.

The popularity of certain breeds have lead to over breeding. Greedy breeders who own a couple of dogs and breed every season. Overbreedung brings down their price and every bogan can own one. Before you know it, there's a high energy, high prey drive, athletic , unstable, dog in every bogans backyard and the cycle goes on.

[Greytmate]

You're taking a few online examples and applying them to the global multitude of individuals who don't agree with the principles of Breed Specific Legislation. Don't you think that might be a bit of a generalisation?

Besides, I think the achievements mentioned, while laudable, are just a part of the wider scope of BSL. These angsty, crazed, irrational rabble-rousing BSL advocates that you mention have lives at stake. Muzzling a dog is one thing - you can abide by that fairly easily - killing a dog entirely another.

Not only that but the media is much more focused on breeds other than the greyhound, which makes the task of law changing that much more difficult.

Not all anti-BSL people have lives at stake, and in many places it is legal to keep a restricted breed if restrictions are complied with. But that is beside the point. For us to get laws changed there were no demos, no protests, no calling for public support. It was all about consultation with government and us finding out what they needed.

Are you aware of past anti-bsl action and the effect it has had? Have you used that information to help you decide the most effective way to approach this task?

If you keep on doing what you have always done you will keep getting what you always get.

[bulldogz4eva]

I find BSL perplexing.

I am glad Australia has prohibitions against importing Filho Brasiliero . . . given that they are huge and the breed standard specifies that they should be hostile to strangers. I have no doubt it's possible to breed man-killers and if anyone is doing this, as an individual, or as a breed, I think they deserve a kick where it hurts, as well as castration of their breeding stock.

It gets much more confusing where some lines in the breed have been bred for HA or powerful and extreme protective behaviour. I don't feel it's justified to ban an entire breed because some breeders are bad eggs.

Unfortunately, governments aren't good at finding the bad eggs.

On the other hand, I find it very very sad that some breed standards prohibit the registration of some colours (white in boxers and GSD's) and many breeders systematically cull pups that don't conform to breed standards. And I find it weird that the BSL community isn't rallying behind such simple things as removing the obviously absurd muzzle restrictions on pet greyhounds.

I tend to agree with you slightly as I am not in favor of lifting the import ban either.In a perfect world eveyone would be responsible but that just aint going to happen

The fila like some other dogs was bred in a different time and place to do a specific job and they fit that bill very well but not a dog for everyone and not a dog for suburban living.

If the import ban was lifted there are people who despite not having many brain cells do have money and would import certain breeds and sell them to anyone who has the money just to make a dollar and that has the potential to be disastrous but in saying that I dont believe all the dogs on that list are that harmful to people.Out of the 5 I woudl say 2 have the potential in the wrong hands and under the right circumstances.There are breeds that are already here that are far more of a threat but havent reached the popularity.Some of the breeds on the list have a 'cult' likefollowing among the wrong kinds of poeople becuase of their reputation and some of that is unwarranted and becuase the fact that they are banned which attracts some people.

Also you statement about breeding man killers as you put it is also not that hard if that is your wish.You dont need to import one of those dogs as you can make your own if you are that way inclined.How do you stop that?You cant.

I am still not in favor of BSL andnever will be.Restrictions werent that bad if they were policed but as son as there is any incident they go overboard and demand action.They set the system up for failure and call me cynical but I suspect that was the plan.Inch something in then go the whole mile when it doesnt work becuase it was never going to.How can you expect people to police themselves.If they dont police it people will not comply.If they only prosecute the bad eggs it would have been ok but they didnt.It is about eradication and like any total prohibition it cant and wont work.

I am interested in this too. I have always been opposed to BSL in principle mostly because that is what wiser heads in the dog world have told me too think

But

Are we in the purebred community sending mixed messages. On the one hand saying that buying a pure bred will provide the owner (amongst other things) some certainty as to the appearance, physical capacity and temperament of the dog. Then do we contradict ourselves by saying BSL is unfair as it places generalisations upon breeds.

I strongly believe that some breeds are a bigger danger due to their size, athleticism, drive and protective natures. How do we acknowledge this and ensure owners of these animals are responsible. I am certain that if the APBT is driven to extinction those would be owners purchasing them to compensate for a small penis will just turn to another breed.

I am also uneasy about "soft" versions of some breeds being produced to make them "better" as pets. GSDs who whimper if you blow your nose too loud for example. This is not who these dogs are supposed (who says!) to be.

What alternatives to BSL are palatable to the media and the politicians who feed off them. Targeting individual owners and dogs seems to be a problem as we have to wait for an attack to occur then respond. A little like waiting for a death at a rail crossing before installing boom gates.

Could certain breeds cost more to register unless the owner has completed and passed so many hours of obedience training???

Perhaps some minimum penis length required to own a muscle dog?

Nice post Brian but you should be wise enough by now to think for yourself and know its wrong.

I also agree with you that some breeds are more of a potential danger becuase of their size drive etc..Unfortunately quite a few of those breeds are ANKC breeds.Acknowledging that is one thing and practicing what one preaches is another.Many people still have their heads in the sand.I am also not in favor of softer versions of the original.If you want a soft version get a stuffed toy.The whole 'better pet' thing is a marketing ploy by those that shouldnt have a working dog so they can sell more dogs.Leave the working breeds to those that are going to work them.

I am in favor also of what you have said about ob and hours of training.I dont know that yo can make it compulsory but certainly discounts on yearly rego for anyone who completes obedience training with their dog.The majority of problems are caused by dogs not being under control and that is an easy fix most of the time or in the beginning before it becomes a problem.I avent got a ruler handy Brian so I will have to ask my wife.She says I should pass.

The BSL is essentially a legislation that discourages or prevents the ownership of specific breeds that possess the potential of extreme strength and courage with the ability to fight that is considered unsuitable for the general population to handle such breeds safely and effectively. The breeds listed by the BSL consist of the Fila Brasiliero, Dogo Argintino, Japanese Tosa, Presa Canario and the American Pit Bull Terrier. None of these breeds are recognised or supported by the Australian National Kennel Club (ANKC) Australia's major canine controlling body.

Anti BSL campaigners are primarily connected with or owners of backyard bred extracts of the American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) that the BSL legislation effected the ownership and breeding practices of these animals to eventually create extinction which they object. Anti BSL has little importance other than to legalise the breeding and ownership of the APBTand mixtures of ultimately motivated and driven by self interest.

The BSL legislation does not affect the future of any breeds recognised and supported by the ANKC.

Thats all fine and dandy but who considered them unsuitable?Why?What were theri credentials to make the decision?How many ANKC breeds have a fighting background?Just as many as are on the list.How many are also not suitable for everyone?Quite a few.

Where did you draw your conclusions from?From this site?Primarily connected with bakyard bred extracts hmmm.Where are your dogs bred?In the backyard,sound like backyard bred to me too.lol.

Sorry I have to stop laughing for a minute to post.Anti bsl has little importance other than to legalise the breeding and ownership of the apbt and mixtures of ultimately motivated and driven by self interest.that may be so for the very few but I think you need to take off your eye patch so you can see the big picture.They didnt ban the amstaff and the staffy in Canada for no reason they banned them becuase of similarities and its ok for the ANKC to look after their own but in the end they are looking after us too.As long as their is an amstaff there will be a pitbull.Thanks ANKC we love you.

hostility to strangers is what allows some dogs to work ie to carry out thir purpose.

without that innate ability to confront and contend, they cannot do the jobs that are expected of them.

Likewise dogs that don't have this capacity, cannot do the jobs that "big dogs with extreme protective behaviour" are expected to do.

Breeders aren't being bad eggs.

They are in fact being good breeders, by keeping their breed(s) sound and steady, though yes with a temperamental capacity very different to many other breeds of dogs, such as your everyday labardor

I agree and if I am looking for that type of dog I would like to still think I can find one here.However the problem arises when dogs get sold to the wrong people and they farm them for cash to anyone and in the future I see this with some of the more exotci breeds that are already here.We have already seen the likes of Barry Rochford and unfortunately he is not the only one out there with money and a screw loose.

The trouble starts when breeders start pumping out litters and selling them to anyone, teenages, families, etc. Some working dogs are best kept by people who understand them and work them, not as family pets, nanny dogs, accessories.

The popularity of certain breeds have lead to over breeding. Greedy breeders who own a couple of dogs and breed every season. Overbreedung brings down their price and every bogan can own one. Before you know it, there's a high energy, high prey drive, athletic , unstable, dog in every bogans backyard and the cycle goes on.

You are dead right and it continues to happen.The premier of WA Colin Barnett said in January he was going to ban the breeding of pitbulls in WA.Something that was supposed to happen years ago but eveidently forgot about it.This was supposed to come in at the end of may.Well may cam and went 5 weeks ago still nothing.Read the local paper here and byb are still pumping them out and there is no less than half a dozen ads there so it cant be a problem now can it.lol.

Not all anti-BSL people have lives at stake, and in many places it is legal to keep a restricted breed if restrictions are complied with. But that is beside the point. For us to get laws changed there were no demos, no protests, no calling for public support. It was all about consultation with government and us finding out what they needed.

Are you aware of past anti-bsl action and the effect it has had? Have you used that information to help you decide the most effective way to approach this task?

If you keep on doing what you have always done you will keep getting what you always get.

Yeah you right the governemnt controlled the flow of information conducted talks and consulted with the select few.Thats called a sucker punch.Lull people into the false sense that their is a workable solution to be had when they only had one agenda,theirs.

In the end Sandgrubber I have to say their is plenty of hypocrisy on both sides of the fence.

[sandgrubber]

Side note on the Fila . . . if kidnapping of children for ransom were as prevalent in Australia as it is in Brasil, I would say was a role for such a breed. I would bet they are lovely to look at. They might out do some of the breeds used for security work. But I'm just as glad there won't be one next door.

Taken from the breed standard for the Fila Brasiliero (as posted by American Rare Breeds Association)

http://www.arba.org/FilaBS.htm

Minimum weight for males 50 kg, females 40 kg.

Test of Temperament

It is compulsory to all individuals (after 12 months) in order to obtain a registered championship title. All champions must have a certificate of approval at the temperament test. This sort of test is made at all specialty shows. It Is optional at general shows, up the Judge's will, provided it is public and takes place outside the show ring.

The trail includes:

1. Attack with a stick. The dog is supposed to attack in front of the handler, without being coached, and the exhibitor or handler will remain in his position. It is forbidden to touch or to beat the animal.

2. Shooting test. There will be fired blanks at a distance of 5 meters from the dog, the dog should express attention, show self­confidence and self assurance.

During a performance in the ring the judge will analyze the behavior and temperament of the specimen, paying attention to his expression. During the temperament test the following should be observed

1. the dislike of the animal to strangers

2. the self­ assurance, courage, determination and braveness of each individual.

[bulldogz4eva]

I have seen the breed standard for the Fila and as I said they are good at what they were bred for and I fI lived in Brazil I would have one no problemo.

You cant go off of everything you read without having experienced it first hand.They arent a dog for suburban Australia but in another place they suit the purpose.They were brede not to like strangers and that is the whole point of having one in that environment.I dont think you have too much to worry about having one next door to you.There arent any here.

That is the only breed standard I can think of where the dog is supposed to try to bite the judge.lol.

[tybrax]

You cant go off of everything you read without having experienced it first hand.

So true.......