Guest Willow Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 In case you ain't figured it out yet, I'm no halti fan. :wink: No way??? You??? Really??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 In case you ain't figured it out yet, I'm no halti fan. :wink: No way??? You??? Really??? :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/pulling-leash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Willow Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 In case you ain't figured it out yet, I'm no halti fan. :wink: No way??? You??? Really??? *whispers* ok....it can be our little secret... :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I am also a positive trainer and am not a fan of halti's. I use a Martingale collar and used one on my Dobe also. More to make sure IF something happened they could not get out of their collar. I don't use chains myself, but can see there use if used properly on a dog with an established problem, which is also dependent on the dogs personality. My dogs are trained from babies not to pull and to walk nicely is heavily reinforced. I have never had my dogs 'laugh' at me either. They are usually more than competant, serious workers who love what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all that glitters Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 http://www.pawzazzpetz.com.au/gpage13.html Is this sort of collar OK to use if a dog continues to pull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Sure- as long as you use it properly. Don't go through a number of correctional collars if the dog is continuing to pull- it then becomes much more difficult if a dog is highly insensitive because so many different things have been tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) http://www.pawzazzpetz.com.au/gpage13.htmlIs this sort of collar OK to use if a dog continues to pull? I have this one and its the best I have used (Ive tried a few things ). Its a limited slip collar (a martingale is the same just with a triangle chain) and works like a check chain except that it cant "check" further than the leather part of the collar. It gives a lot of control when you need it and doesnt slide much when you dont. I love mine. Sorry, Evie's. Edited July 4, 2009 by ✽deelee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trishalouise Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 The irony of the halti being promoted as "positive" is that many dogs find them highly uncomfortable, whether they are pulling or not.I have yet to see a dog rolling on the ground clawing at its neck trying to get a check chain off. "He'll get used to it" you'll be told in a cheerful voice by the PP brigade if your dog does this.... what crap. Some dogs are so depressed by the installation of these devices on their faces that they lack the drive to pull. Positive my @rse.. I have dealt with a Staffy who completely shut down when his check chain was put on - so depressed he wouldn't even lift his head, let alone move. As soon as it was taken off he was a different dog. So it is not just a head collar that can do it. I rarely recommend head collars (prefer flat collars or martingales) but will do so if the owner is really struggling. If introduced SLOWLY and positively dogs do not have the aversion to them that you describe - it is just that they are rarely introduced to the dog properly. A lt of people wack them on and off they go. This Staffy happily walked nicely on a martingale after we swapped from the check chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) I have dealt with a Staffy who completely shut down when his check chain was put on - so depressed he wouldn't even lift his head, let alone move. As soon as it was taken off he was a different dog. So it is not just a head collar that can do it. I rarely recommend head collars (prefer flat collars or martingales) but will do so if the owner is really struggling. If introduced SLOWLY and positively dogs do not have the aversion to them that you describe - it is just that they are rarely introduced to the dog properly. A lt of people wack them on and off they go. This Staffy happily walked nicely on a martingale after we swapped from the check chain. Hi Trishalouise. The difference is that training tools such as check chains are not promoted (by innuendo or otherwise) as a "positive" training tool. Yet the head collar often is. That in itself is VERY dangerous IMO. I agree that many do not introduce their dogs to the head collar the way they should be and that can make a difference to the dog's acceptance of it, or not. But on the other hand I have met dogs whom have been intro'd correctly yet continue to object to the feel of it on their face. But I agree with PF that whilst introduction to neck collars carries a similar introduction procedure, I have not witnessed as much objection to neck collars (whether they be flat; martingale; check chain; PPC; or whatever) as I have and do to head collars. Nor have I witnessed as much care and time required for the intro of head collars compared with other restraint/training tools. Surely that's gotta be saying something to us? In the course of my business I have instructed many people in the proper use of head collars. I have also on a small number of occasions, recommended their use for certain dog/human combo's. I've also used them myself on a couple of occasions to assist me in certain behaviour modification processes. But I have never promoted them as a positive training tool, or a kind/gentle training tool. I explain the dangers of their mis-use (accidental or otherwise) just as I explain the potential dangers of mis-use (accidental or otherwise) of the check chain. I always point(ed) out the necessity for the PPCollar and the E-collar to be used wisely as well. This should be common place with ANY training tool. Yet in the "positive only" arena, I hear much noise about check chains, PPCollars and E-collars, but not so the head-collar. Is that only because THEY promote and recommend it? There are obviously many "positive only" (I know you guys realise I use that term loosely) individuals who also recognise where the head collar is an aversive tool like any other training tool (whether that be to a greater or lesser degree - I'll leave that out of this 'argument'). What gets my goat is that there are VERY public organisations who scoff and scorn those who might use a correction tool - damning them as cruel etc. etc., yet promote by mere recommendation (which attaches by mere association the 'air' of the head collar being a positive training tool as well) the use of a head collar without so much of a hint of the things that can go wrong when used incorrectly. Hypocritical, if you ask me ..... especially when these groups promote themselves under the guise of having major consideration to animal welfare supposedly moreso than any other person who might make (good) use of any of the other training tools mentioned (or not mentioned) here. A brochure that I saw which was put out by the APDT (UK) showed pictures of unhappy dogs wearing check chains. I remember that one of those pictures was of an owner pulling up with tension on the chain via the lead (so obviously the dog wasn't happy). The brochure made a big deal of the 'bad' things about check chains. About two thirds or more of the brochure was on the check chains and how bad they were. In fact, the brochure was titled something like "Why we Don't Like Check Chains". The brochure included a small section on head-collars, showing a happy and relaxed dog wearing a head collar. No mention of any risk by improper use was mentioned about it. IMO that is VERY irresponsible ...... assuming the agenda was aimed at dog welfare. I don't mind the brochure pointing out the dangers of mis-use of training equipment. But to represent (by ommission) that the head collar doesn't have any such danger is abhorrently irresponsible in my books. ESPECIALLY when it is represented to the public who (a) wouldn't know any better and (b) would (or should) be able to trust an organisation that represents itself with hundreds of members as extolling dog welfare through "positive only" training. Edited July 5, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) Trishlouise: I have dealt with a Staffy who completely shut down when his check chain was put on - so depressed he wouldn't even lift his head, let alone move. Had the Staffy been harshly corrected with it, or was it the chain itself. Either way, it was not going to be an effective tool for that dog. Erny: A brochure that I saw which was put out by the APDT (UK) showed pictures of unhappy dogs wearing check chains. I remember that one of those pictures was of an owner pulling up with tension on the chain via the lead (so obviously the dog wasn't happy). The brochure made a big deal of the 'bad' things about check chains. About two thirds or more of the brochure was on the check chains and how bad they were. In fact, the brochure was titled something like "Why we Don't Like Check Chains". The brochure included a small section on head-collars, showing a happy and relaxed dog wearing a head collar. No mention of any risk by improper use was mentioned about it. IMO that is VERY irresponsible ...... assuming the agenda was aimed at dog welfare. The APDT here is no different. Now you know why I'm no longer a member. Any training organisation or trainer that promotes a single training tool while condemning certain others as "cruel" is not open minded to the idea that its handers, not tools that are the "cruel" ones. Any tool has the potential for abuse and if trainers can't see that, they're deluding themselves. Many of those who condemn prongs, ecollars and check chains have never seen them used correctly by a knowledgeable trainer. That's dogma as I see it. Edited July 5, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) The APDT here is no different. Now you know why I'm no longer a member. Any training organisation or trainer that promotes a single training tool while condemning certain others as "cruel" is not open minded to the idea that its handers, not tools that are the "cruel" ones. Any tool has the potential for abuse and if trainers can't see that, they're deluding themselves. Many of those who condemn prongs, ecollars and check chains have never seen them used correctly by a knowledgeable trainer. That's dogma as I see it. We're on the 'same page' PF. I didn't know you were no longer a member. I'm no longer a member either - the APDT here refused to permit me to renew my membership because I publicly campaigned for a change in our current Victorian law to permit (with restriction) use of the PPCollar in training. At least I am honest and upfront about it. The APDT don't like check chains either. Yet they don't push away those who use or advocate them. Maybe too many of their members use them? . And the way I see it, IF their "positive only" methods subscribe to every dog in every circumstance, then why wouldn't they want to embrace me so they can convince me of that with evidence? They can't do that if they have refused me partaking in their affairs. Hypocrisy at its finest, IMO. :rolleyes: ..... Sorry - I think I've taken this thread off its original track. To Shellectra - from the discussions here, have you been assisted in your initial enquiry? Edited July 5, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 The APDT here is no different. Now you know why I'm no longer a member. Any training organisation or trainer that promotes a single training tool while condemning certain others as "cruel" is not open minded to the idea that its handers, not tools that are the "cruel" ones. Any tool has the potential for abuse and if trainers can't see that, they're deluding themselves. :rolleyes: Many of those who condemn prongs, ecollars and check chains have never seen them used correctly by a knowledgeable trainer. That's dogma as I see it. We're on the 'same page' PF. I didn't know you were no longer a member. I'm no longer a member either - the APDT here refused to permit me to renew my membership because I publicly campaigned for a change in the law to permit (with restriction) use of the PPCollar in training. At least I am honest and upfront about it. That's amazing. What a backwards and hypocritical organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsdog2 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) I reinforced the right behaviour with treats, so when the dog caught up to me and was walking on a loose leash beside me I'd say 'yes' and would give them a treat. I would also reinforce them if they stayed walking on a loose leash after a while by saying 'yes' and giving them a treat and verbal praise. You might not get far the first few walking sessions but if you're patient and consistent it works well. Some people train it with a clicker instead of saying yes. I know you feel like an idiot, but if you are consistent with your timing and rewards you should see results - although you might find it helpful to consult a trainer for a one on one session or two so they can show you where you might be going wrong? I'm training my 8mth old GSD using this method and I couldn't agree more. I constantly watch her for good behaviour ie. click and treat when she looks at me instead of the dog barking along the fenceline. I now find that when she see's a dog waiting for her (within their yard), she will look at me (because "good" things happen when she looks at me ). If she starts pulling I might put her in a sit and CALMLY put her through a few excersises (sit, stand, drop in the one position), and when I have her full attention we'll start CALMLY walking again. I would look at it as a 15 minute training session, instead of a 15 minute walk being extended because she's pulling on the lead. Remember she's still only a baby. By the way Shellectra, after your girls earlier health problems, she's turned out a lovely LH Shepherd :rolleyes: Edited July 5, 2009 by gsdog2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I didn't know you were no longer a member. I'm no longer a member either - the APDT here refused to permit me to renew my membership because I publicly campaigned for a change in our current Victorian law to permit (with restriction) use of the PPCollar in training. At least I am honest and upfront about it. Really? That's ridiculous. I mean I'd understand (not agree, but understand) them barring you from membership for promoting the PP collar f if they were a purely positive-type organisation. But they allow members to use choke and head collars! I've got no problem with head collars as long as they're being used sensibly and sensitively, but I don't like seeing them promoted as a "just stick them on the dog and go for a walk" tool, as many trainers and organisations seem to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) Really? That's ridiculous. I mean I'd understand (not agree, but understand) them barring you from membership for promoting the PP collar f if they were a purely positive-type organisation. But they allow members to use choke and head collars! Thing is, I'm certain they don't approve of the use of check chains either. I remember a contribution was made to their newsletter by a trainer whom they heralded, and that person certainly decried the check chain. Yet in one of their newsletters (the same one, I think), they said (almost verbatum) "We invite anyone to NOT renew their membership if they advocate the use of and use the PPCollar or E-Collar.". But they didn't say anything in that respect for the Check Chain. Not sure why ...... would that have lost them too many members perhaps? With me, they actually rejected my membership renewal application (ie I didn't accept their invitation to not renew.). Sorry - I've gone off topic again. Stopping now. Edited July 5, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Here's a link showing Jean Donaldson demonstrating how to use a gentle leader. Conditioning an Emotional Response. http://abrionline.org/videos.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all that glitters Posted July 5, 2009 Author Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) No worries about going off topic guys, it's always more to read and learn about! I've got the obedience club to order me in a martingale collar, at least for the fact that if she tries to reverse out of it (which she sometimes does) it won't come off! Will definately start seeing the walk as more of a training session than a 'walk'. She's not phased by walks at all yet, so going out there and focusing on getting her to walk nicely, even if its just down a few houses and back, will be fine. Will definately work on it! Edited July 5, 2009 by Shellectra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 A flat nylon or leather collar in the wrong hands can cause pain and discomfort. A check chain would never potentially cause a problem if it never gets tightened or reefed on. I use a martingale for that exact reason Shell, Whippet = head and neck same diameter = potentially collar off and bye bye doggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 A flat nylon or leather collar in the wrong hands can cause pain and discomfort. A check chain would never potentially cause a problem if it never gets tightened or reefed on.I use a martingale for that exact reason Shell, Whippet = head and neck same diameter = potentially collar off and bye bye doggy. I'm seeing a lot of Blackdog IG, greyhound and whippet collars on other breeds these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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