Aggressive Behaviour

[Oscar (AmBull)]

My Amstaff Oscar has in the past two days become rather aggressive. Out of nowhere he will start barking at us and actually lunging to bite us. I have seen him in his play mode and this is not it. I am rather concerned. What should we do to prevent this? We try ignoring him but he continues to lunge at us (normally sitting). We stand and ignore him and he normally stops, until you sit down again. Removing him from the room, as soon as he enters again he starts up, even worse though because he actually tries to bite the back of our legs. Is this just a stage of dominance? What should we be doing?

ETA: I was extremely frustrated when I wrote this and it is no where as bad as it actually sounds. Thanks to everyone who has replied and I apologise again for me not making it clearer. For piece of mind I have organised a home visit from a trained behaviourist to evaluate this behaviour and see what this behaviour is. I have had a private message from someone in a similar situation to me and it was put down to 'tantrums' by a professioonal, they described the same sort of things and therefore I think it is more likely to be this. I will let you all know the evaluation made by the behaviourist. I apologise again and thank you all for your help.

Edited July 2, 2009 by NewAmstaffOwner

[Kelpie-i]

This is not normal puppy behaviour and alarm bells should be sounding!

Where did you get him from?

Can I also ask has anything occurred to spark this behaviour off...ie. have you scolded, scared, smacked the puppy at all at any time? you rreally need to be honest here since any of these could be the reason.

Biting from behind is a usually a sign of fear and lack of confidence (since the dog is not confident enough to come from the front angle).

Get the help of a behaviourist, SOONER rather than later!

[Oscar (AmBull)]

I don't think it is actually trying to harm us as much as hey listen to me pay attention to me I tell you what to do. Like it doesn't hurt. We have never smacked him or anything like that, we use positive reinforcement and are currently attempting to enrol in a obediance class with a trained behaviouist.

I think I may have made it sound worse than it is, possibly because he had just done it when I wrote the thread, sorry if this is the case. He has done it approximately 3 or 4 times now. He also hasn't been able to go outside due to rain, could it be that he is bored, annoyed or frusterated?

How do I tell if it is him just a new form of playing? He gets low to the ground and kind of pounces and leaps at us, whilst barking. That I know of he hasn't been scared. He is actually a really confident pup normally, he mainly will jump from behind as I turn my back to him. We have had a lot of rain and some thunder storms the last few days?

Thanks again

[missmoo]

You need to see a Behaviourist. This behaviour will only get worse over time and has the potential to cause you or someone else serious injury. There could be several reasons why the behaviour has started but you really need to think and come up with some possibilities as to why, what may sem insignificant to you or anyone who has been around your pup can have an impact on the dog. What appears to be puppy play behaviour, and it is hard to really say without actually seeing the behaviour, can in fact be an aggressive response. Either way this type of behaviour isnt acceptable IMO.

Edited July 2, 2009 by missmoo

[poodlefan]

Could be aggression, could be play... you need a qualified professional to visit you and assess the situation NOW.

You sound a little scared.. and your pup will know that. Dont' delay.

[Oscar (AmBull)]

I have just re read my post and it isnt as severe as it actually sounds, really sorry. I posted while I was frustrated by his behaviour.

I can't think of any triggers, other than the weather conditions nothing has changed and we haven't had visitors the past couple of days. How do I tell if I am overreacting to this behaviour? Like when it goes from play to agressive? He doesn't have any other dogs here so he doesn't know what is accpetable and what isn't? It is hard to get someone to see him as he has only done it a handful of times and 23.5 hours of the day he is absolutely fine.

[Kelpie-i]

NAO, you post did sound as though it was serious aggression...

I have seen him in his play mode and this is not it. I am rather concerned.

If his behaviour is aimed at "controlling" your movements, then this has the potential to worsen as he gets older. No puppy or dog should be allowed to put teeth/mouth on you, not for play or any reason IMO.

How do I tell if it is him just a new form of playing?

It would be foolish for any trainer/behaviourist to try and diagnose the behaviour over the internet and without seeing the puppy in action. Is there any chance you could get a private consult with the trainer? If not, look around for someone who can come out and see him in action.

[Oscar (AmBull)]

I am scared because more than anything I don't want an aggressive dog, had several as a child and not pretty. I think I need someone else to assess this behaviour, but like I said he hardly ever does it, and it is mainly mid play session so don't think he would do it in front of a behaviourist. I think because he is my first dog alone and I don't know what to expect I am more nervous and scared of things going terribly wrong.

[Oscar (AmBull)]

I am so sorry, it isn't severe aggression. I think I was just frustrated and at a loss of what to do. I can get a private lesson with the behaviouist, however like I said I can't see him doing it in front of her. It has only happened 2 or 3 times so far and the likelihood of him doing it in that hour is probably slim.

[Cosmolo]

A good behaviourist will be skilled at recognising if their are problems and how to deal wth them even if the behaviour does not present within a session. Aside from anything else, it might put you at ease. Possible that it is just play- but you need to be certain to know how to proceed.

[Kelpie-i]

We try ignoring him but he continues to lunge at us (normally sitting). We stand and ignore him and he normally stops, until you sit down again. Removing him from the room, as soon as he enters again he starts up, even worse though because he actually tries to bite the back of our legs.[/

NAO, you now state that he does it when playing, but your first post tells a different story

[Oscar (AmBull)]

Sorry I didn't put that in my first post. He seems to do it in the middle or after i try and finish a play session. Like if I stop the session or if i get distracted mid play session, then he starts the behaviour. I think I will get the behaviourist out and see what they say, at least then we know for sure where we are at. Either there is a problem or there isn't. So sorry on all the confusion, I am new to DOL and owning a dog myself, and thanks so much for everyones help, opinions, and advice.

[nobul]

TO post what you have , sends alarm bells ringing straight away. You are scared of the dog and he is only a puppy!!!. These types of breeds like many other need controlled and firm owners.You say you have had agressive dogs as a child , dogs arent agressive in most cases it is the owners and if this puppy is picking up that you are not in control or have fear then things will get worse. I have seen this many times, owners past experiences or believing the media hype although they say they dont.

I HIGHLY recommend you and your dog start obedience training ASAP at a GOOD school i can recommend one if you wish to PM me as i notice you are in SA.

Whilst a good behaviourist is worth their weight in gold they are hard to come by, These problems need adressing immediately and to be constantly worked on daily, day in day out , not just for an hour by a proffessional.

Cheers

Julie

[Oscar (AmBull)]

I am not scared of him, he is a big sook. I am scared of owning an aggressive dog and therefore probably a bit paranoid about it.

My dad had one, who was attckaed by another dog when he was a young pup, completely out of the blue. My dad had to have him pts when he actually turned on him, he hated other dogs and turned that way to people. He would fight to the death if given the chance. I think he had fear aggression and nothing could snap him out of it.

Like I said, I think my frustration made it much worse than it is and I am really sorry for that. He isn't a naturally aggressive puppy, just this barking and nipping behaviour has poped up the last few days. I am quite strict on him, and have quite good control over him most of the time. He listens extremely well and has responded great to training. I have him enrolled in obediance which starts in a couple of weeks, he is currently in puppy school. I have also contacted the behaviourist and am organising a private session. She is a registered and accredited trainer, however if I am unhappy with her evaluation or classes I will pm you for another if that is ok.

But thanks so much for the advice, it really is appreciated.

Edited July 2, 2009 by NewAmstaffOwner

[Cosmolo]

I would suggest contacting Mark Singer if you're in SA. Good luck

[Sandra777]

It's hard to say what is actually happening with the conflicting parts of the story in different posts, but if this is not a constant behaviour for Oscar and has only just started, I would suggest you do something that will no doubt get me roasted. I have had a couple of pups that "suddenly" seem to be "aggressive" and at about this age too..... They are generally cocky little sods and often spoilt, have never really got a good telling off from one of the adult dogs and have learned they can have their version of fun (which isn't the same as ours!) without getting "in trouble"

Next time he tries this hustle straight up to him, grab him by the skin on the top of his shoulder and push him down onto the ground sort of with your fore-arm along his shoulder and use your weight - at the same time get on your knees and loom over him, your chest and shoulders right over the top of him and 8-10 inches above him - you want to do a stand-over like an adult dog would do. Stare straight at him. No need to yell, growl or shake, just shove him down and take a dominant stance. If he struggles use your weight (through your forearm, don't grip his skin tighter, this isn't about physical pain/punishment) to push him down, and keep staring at him. If he tries to bite say a very firm no in a growly voice and sort of use your elbow to deflect his head (put pressure on his neck to keep his head down). He might squeak and whimper, this is saying "oh s**t I'm sorry!", in which case don't increase the pressure but don't decrease either (be careful there, if you decrease the pressure he'll think that growling/biting/struggling is the way to make you stop). The vast majority of puppies will stop struggling within 10 or 15 seconds and lie limply. Keep holding him down and staring at him for maybe another 3 or 4 seconds (as if to say, "right - now don't forget") then get up and walk away. He will probably come after you all full of apologies, but ignore him for 20-30 seconds then very slowly warm up to him and allow him to snuggle - but don't engage in any vigorous or exciting play, just let him sit or lie beside you and do not fuss him.

This is a form of Alpha Rolling which is a concept I absolutely disagree with when dealing with an adult or adolescent dog, but with a puppy I have found it does work in almost all cases.

If he gets really aggressive if you do this do not do it again, get professional help.

Have you been doing any sort of exercises with him that reinforce that you are stronger (physically and mentally?) Assuming you conqueror this problem easily and don't get other advice from a professional I would suggest you do another exercise with him that I always tell people to do - make him stay still while your holding him - hold him firmly against your body and do not release him until he submits. I do this with my pups from the time they're 4 or 5 weeks old, and within a couple of days most will lie flat on the palm of your hand(s) and just melt as you do tummy rubs - it's about trust and also about confidence that people will always be stronger than the dog (physically, mentally, any which way) and will always win whatever "battle" is on offer.

[Oscar (AmBull)]

It's hard to say what is actually happening with the conflicting parts of the story in different posts, but if this is not a constant behaviour for Oscar and has only just started, I would suggest you do something that will no doubt get me roasted. I have had a couple of pups that "suddenly" seem to be "aggressive" and at about this age too..... They are generally cocky little sods and often spoilt, have never really got a good telling off from one of the adult dogs and have learned they can have their version of fun (which isn't the same as ours!) without getting "in trouble"

Thanks so much for the suggestion Sandra, you have basically descirbed him and the situation to a t. He is very cocky and I have to admit spoilt, and never been told of by an adult dog as we don't know many people with dogs, so he has only ever really met pupppies. We have tried to discipline it, but because we aren't sure what it is we don't really know what to do.

I will give the technique a try next time he does it, he has been fine so far today. Is this similar to what Cesar Millan does? With holding him, in what sort of position would he be?

What sort of exercises should we be doing to assert our strength to his? We do tug of war and never let him win? Is it that sort of thing?

Again thanks so much.

[Sandra777]

I will give the technique a try next time he does it, he has been fine so far today. Is this similar to what Cesar Millan does?

I believe so - don't do Cesar, never seen him do his version of the alpha roll and totally disagree with it being used on adults or adolescents. I always make sure I am mimicking an adult dog's stance as well as a person can - on all fours, body over the puppy (or at very least, pup between my "forelegs", even if his body is sticking out to oneside), my head over their head (watch that you don't get bitten even if he doesn't mean it 'nastily') Definitely nothing harsh - just very matter of fact and projecting the whole aura of "I am so sure of myself that I don't need to yell or scream or smack - you will just do it" You don't have to wait until he starts his silly nonsense - very quietly and non-threateningly do it anyway. It's NOT a "punishment", it's a learning experience for him and a confidence booster for you.

With holding him, in what sort of position would he be?

on his side. I totally disagree with forcing a puppy onto it's back, but if you push him onto his side and he rolls partly or completely onto his back of his own free will then that is the genuine thing that the subordinate offers the dominant dog (the dominant dog never pushes the subordinant onto it's back, the subordinant rolls there)

What sort of exercises should we be doing to assert our strength to his? We do tug of war and never let him win? Is it that sort of thing?

Nah, let him win - but only when you want to, and only if he knows "stop" or "give" pretty reliably (reliable depends on age, make some allowances for a happy puppy )

Start when he's a bit tired, sit on the floor and hold him against your sort of on your lap but he can stand up if he wants. Give him a firm but not really gooshy affectionate cuddle holding his whole body against you and putting some pressure on him with your arm. Don't let him go until he relaxes and accepts it. Bit by bit work up to him lying on his side or back on your lap while you wiggle his feet and legs, (gently!) pull his ears, lips and tail etc. The dominant dog can touch the submissive dog anywhere and anytime they choose, so mimic that.

Beg borrow or buy Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash", about half of it is quite training focused which you might not find relevant, but it explains things in a way that will probably make you think of things for yourself that will work in your situation.

[huski]

I would don't know how many aggression cases would be solved purely by pinning a dog to the ground.

I was told to try this method with Daisy when she was six months old (or younger, can't quite remember) and it made her behaviour WORSE, because she took me up on the challenge and didn't back down.

That's the danger with alpha rolling IMO, you risk getting bitten and having the dog take you up on the challenge. I consulted a behaviourist and I don't have any problems at all now, I changed my daily interactions with Daisy and gave her stricter rules and boundaries and she began to respect me and see me as the alpha.

When I play tug of war with the dogs I don't ever "give" them the tug, I let them capture it and I tug with them, then I tell them to give and when they release it I make it come alive again by moving it around and that's their reward for releasing it. I don't let them run away with it and play with it on their own, but that's just me.

Edited July 3, 2009 by huski

[Kavik]

If you pin the dog down and put your face next to its face, you risk being bitten on the face. Don't think I would want to risk copping a bite on the face from a powerful breed like the one you own.

I encourage tug in my dogs so I can use it as a reward. I don't have a reliable tug on any of my current dogs (Kaos will tug in the yard but not on walks or training, the others will not tug). With Kaos in the yard, I encourage him to tug and play with him for a bit then stop and make it go 'dead' and he lets go. When he lets go I move it so he can chase and tug again. I also do sits and release him to get the tug.