huski Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) Just wondering if anyone had some insight into this! Micha and Daisy when walked on their own, with me, walk beautifully. They are very responsive to my commands, walk on a nice loose leash etc. Minimal problems. I don't like to walk them together so I only walk them if my mum comes with me, which at the moment is majority of the time. For some reason when we walk them together they are far naughtier than when walked on their own! By naughty I mean pulling more on the leash, Daisy will ignore me more and appears more distracted by scents etc. I know part of the problem is my mum as I do all the training so the dogs are naturally more responsive to me, but Daisy especially is more poorly behaved when I walk her with Micha. Normally mum takes Mish and I take Daisy as Daisy will always take advantage of the fact mum is not as assertive as me and Daisy knows she can get away with more when mum walks her i.e. Daisy could be pulling on the leash mucking around when mum has her, she will hand her over to me to walk and there is an almost instant difference. Don't get me wrong, she puts lots of effort in but she still handles a bit differently to me and Daisy picks up on it. I don't know if it is because they get excited when we take them off together and 'feed' off each others excitement, or if they egg each other on, but they are both much more frisky when I walk them together. I thought it could be because when I walk them myself I spend more time 'training' i.e. giving them commands and (probably) treating them a little more often than when we walk them together, BUT I still walk Daisy whenever mum and I take them out together and I have been careful not to do anything too differently to when I walk her on my own, and she's still significantly more naughty. Micha is a big distraction for Daisy - sometimes when we get to our local sports oval, I will do one on one training with Daisy and mum will take Mish for a quick jog, but Daisy always wants to know where Micha is going and often focuses too much on where mum and Mish are. Not in an anxious way but a 'I want to be part of their fun!' way. Is this normal? Is there something I can do to stop it? Like I said, they walk beautifully when I walk them individually. It's not a huge deal but I am finding myself getting a bit frustrated as Daisy will be so well behaved one day and then the next day I'll walk her with Mum and Micha and she'll play up. Edited July 1, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Have you ever taken them to dog training and handled them together? How do they respond to commands at home together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) Have you ever taken them to dog training and handled them together? How do they respond to commands at home together? Sorry, not quite sure what you mean by the first question... I normally train them separately. I've taken them to club but not together as their classes are always on at the same time. They are fine responding to commands at home, if (for eg) I go to give them a treat, I will treat whoever complies with my command first, so if I say sit the first to sit gets the first treat. They often comply at the same time. I've had problems taking Micha out and leaving Daisy at home, she carries on sometimes because she hates missing out. She has no problems being taken out on her own, but she can chuck a tantrum if she's left when Mish is taken out. She's been like that since a pup, has never been rewarded for it, but in hindsight I guess I could have done more intense work to get her used to being on her own without Micha. She always settles down eventually but it's almost like she's jealous. Edited July 1, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I mean have you ever had them in a class together? Most dogs will behave differently with dog friends not just because they are distracted by each other but also because the consequences are not the same as when you have them separate. Consistency and timing of any rewards and corrections (if you use them) needs to be the same as when they are separate. Easier said than done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) I mean have you ever had them in a class together? Most dogs will behave differently with dog friends not just because they are distracted by each other but also because the consequences are not the same as when you have them separate. Consistency and timing of any rewards and corrections (if you use them) needs to be the same as when they are separate. Easier said than done! Ah ok. Nope, never had them in a class together, as they are at very different 'stages' in their training, and I'm the only one in my family who does the training. Mish has no problems with focus around Daisy, I can leave him at home alone and he's an angel, if mum takes him in an opposite direction to Daisy and I he doesn't look back. He can be more exciteable on walks when we walk them together, but he's pretty easy to get walking nicely again. Sometimes I've been training with Daisy and mum's walked Micha down to the sports oval, the instant Daisy spots him it's hard to get her focus back as she LOVES Micha and gets really excited about seeing him. I've tried making greeting Mish a reward so I put her in heel position and get her to focus on me, when she does solidly I release her to greet Micha. It hasn't seemed to make much difference though. Edited July 1, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 What do you normally do when daisy pulls on the lead? (in normal training/ when she's by herself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) What do you normally do when daisy pulls on the lead? (in normal training/ when she's by herself) When she pulls on the leash it's normally because she's heavily distracted by a scent so I will give her either the heel or look command, if she responds I will give her a treat and if she doesn't respond (seriously distracted) I try to break her off the scent by stopping or changing direction. There's no point giving her much of a leash correction as if she's in serious "scent drive" she will ignore it A quick pop of the leash will work if she ignores my command and isn't really really distracted by a scent. Occasionally, she obeys me straight away, will heel nicely with me for some time until I treat her and once she's got the treat she'll run to the end of the leash and will go straight back on the scent. However, if I've got her on my own, she's very good 99% of the time. It's when we walk with Micha she seems to have a lot more energy and will muck around more. Edited July 1, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) What do you normally do when daisy pulls on the lead? (in normal training/ when she's by herself) When she pulls on the leash it's normally because she's heavily distracted by a scent so I will give her either the heel or look command, if she responds I will give her a treat and if she doesn't respond (seriously distracted) I try to break her off the scent by stopping or changing direction. There's no point giving her much of a leash correction as if she's in serious "scent drive" she will ignore it A quick pop of the leash will work if she ignores my command and isn't really really distracted by a scent. Occasionally, she obeys me straight away, will heel nicely with me for some time until I treat her and once she's got the treat she'll run to the end of the leash and will go straight back on the scent. However, if I've got her on my own, she's very good 99% of the time. It's when we walk with Micha she seems to have a lot more energy and will muck around more. You are best to give her a damn good hard leash correction, about turn when she pulls and yank the leash as hard as you can in the opposite direction and pull her off her feet as you keep walking in that direction until she heels. A couple of those will teach her that her choice to ignor you has an unpleasant result. She has your measure and is out smarting you at present with the treats. My German Shepherd used to do exactly that to the point he could pull my wife off her feet with a sudden scent drive and she fell over hurting her ankle on one occassion. In heel, our boy after 2 harsh corrections doesn't sniff at all and heels for as far as we can walk. Edited July 1, 2009 by Rex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*Shell*~ Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I have the same problem with Zero whenever we walk with another dog. If Nik and I take Jedi and Zero out, they're not so much interested in eachother but both walk at the end of the leash whereas when we walk them separately, they're really good. I think it's because it's something different and we haven't (well I haven't - Jed's better than Zero but goes places with another dog more often) proofed the dogs enough and the training that I did with Zero to stop the pulling goes out the window when I'm walking 2 dogs together, although he does settle after about 10 minutes. It sucks when you're walking with someone who isn't as proficient (for lack of a better word) as you at working with the dogs (my mum is the same with Zero!) but I'm sure your mum will get there! Do Micha and Daisy settle a while into the walk or are they the same from start to finish? I don't think you need to "yank the leash as hard as you can in the opposite direction and pull her off her feet as you keep walking in that direction until she heels", in fact, IMHO, just the opposite. I got better results from Zero when I wasn't dragging him around by the neck because I wasn't frustrated and angry as I did it and Zero seemed to respond a whole lot better to me being calm about the whole thing than me forcing the issue with . There is no need for a very hard correction when a sharp "arrrr" and turning and walking will do - and if she's in full scenting mode when you do it, chances are that even if you wrench her off her feet with a correction, it won't have much of an effect because she's not in the right state of mind to learn anything. If "arrr" doesn't work and Daisy is still scenting, try a high pitched, sharper verbal correction that she hasn't heard much before to get her attention back on you, then turn and walk in the opposite direction or use the couple of seconds of focus to tell her where you want her to be. If turning in the opposite direction is a problem (I know it can be when you're walking two dogs) try stopping or slowing down. With Zero I have a "slow" command which used to mean "I'm about to turn in the opposite direction and you're going to get a correction if you don't follow me" but now it means "you're walking too far out in front, slow down and pay attention". Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 You are best to give her a damn good hard leash correction, about turn when she pulls and yank the leash as hard as you can in the opposite direction and pull her off her feet as you keep walking in that direction until she heels. A couple of those will teach her that her choice to ignor you has an unpleasant result. She has your measure and is out smarting you at present with the treats. My German Shepherd used to do exactly that to the point he could pull my wife off her feet with a sudden scent drive and she fell over hurting her ankle on one occassion. In heel, our boy after 2 harsh corrections doesn't sniff at all and heels for as far as we can walk. That's my point though... if I gave her a 'damn good hard leash correction' when she's in full scent drive it won't affect her. I could pull her up on her back legs with the leash and she would still have her nose out trying to smell things. She's not ignoring me on purpose she's running on pure adrenaline. I'm not too worried about the scenting as we are working on drive training at the moment so I know it will improve the further we come in training. Luckily on a walk it is not a problem I often run into, but she does get too excitable when I walk her with my husky and I'm not quite sure how to manage that better. I have the same problem with Zero whenever we walk with another dog. If Nik and I take Jedi and Zero out, they're not so much interested in eachother but both walk at the end of the leash whereas when we walk them separately, they're really good. I think it's because it's something different and we haven't (well I haven't - Jed's better than Zero but goes places with another dog more often) proofed the dogs enough and the training that I did with Zero to stop the pulling goes out the window when I'm walking 2 dogs together, although he does settle after about 10 minutes. It sucks when you're walking with someone who isn't as proficient (for lack of a better word) as you at working with the dogs (my mum is the same with Zero!) but I'm sure your mum will get there!Do Micha and Daisy settle a while into the walk or are they the same from start to finish? I don't think you need to "yank the leash as hard as you can in the opposite direction and pull her off her feet as you keep walking in that direction until she heels", in fact, IMHO, just the opposite. I got better results from Zero when I wasn't dragging him around by the neck because I wasn't frustrated and angry as I did it and Zero seemed to respond a whole lot better to me being calm about the whole thing than me forcing the issue with . There is no need for a very hard correction when a sharp "arrrr" and turning and walking will do - and if she's in full scenting mode when you do it, chances are that even if you wrench her off her feet with a correction, it won't have much of an effect because she's not in the right state of mind to learn anything. If "arrr" doesn't work and Daisy is still scenting, try a high pitched, sharper verbal correction that she hasn't heard much before to get her attention back on you, then turn and walk in the opposite direction or use the couple of seconds of focus to tell her where you want her to be. If turning in the opposite direction is a problem (I know it can be when you're walking two dogs) try stopping or slowing down. With Zero I have a "slow" command which used to mean "I'm about to turn in the opposite direction and you're going to get a correction if you don't follow me" but now it means "you're walking too far out in front, slow down and pay attention". Good luck! Thanks for the feedback Shell. Mish and Daisy have no interest in each other when I walk them together, but they still seem to feed on each others excitement. It's only if mum walks away with Micha (i.e. walks across the sports oval) and Daisy can still see Micha that she loses focus on me and wants to run over to where Micha is. If mum walked out of sight with Micha then Daisy gets over it almost instantly. They tend to settle down as we're walking once they've lost the initial excitement, but sometimes that takes too long and I find myself getting frustrated with their behaviour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 What food rewards do you normally use for Daisy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 What food rewards do you normally use for Daisy? I guess it depends what we are doing, if we are doing drive training it's always really high value treats like boiled chicken or steak, sausage etc. If we're on a walk (which we haven't been doing too much lately as most of our time is spent training) it depends what I have available but I normally take a mixture of dried treats (dried roast chicken/fish) and soft treats if I have some. I don't treat her much on walks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Why don't you treat her much on walks huski? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Why don't you treat her much on walks huski? Sorry, I should have phrased that better I mean I don't need to treat her much on walks as 99% of the time she walks beautifully. So I only treat her if she complies with a command I give her or sporadically if she's walking nicely. I didn't want anyone to think I rely too much on treats to get her to walk nicely, or that I'm treating her every second step or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Take something really high value with you for use only when you're walking with Misha. This would be my first port of call, with jackpot rewards (i'd use her whole meal for that day) for really excellent efforts from her. Can you video what she does and post it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) Take something really high value with you for use only when you're walking with Misha. This would be my first port of call, with jackpot rewards (i'd use her whole meal for that day) for really excellent efforts from her. Can you video what she does and post it? I can try filming it... There's not much to film though, she just gets more excited than normal if I take Micha out and seems more aroused if that makes sense. She plays up more and pulls on the leash when if she's by herself she's much more well behaved. She's fed on a raw diet so it's hard to feed her a meal on walks/when training. Edited July 2, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I know Huski, i have the same problem with the raw thing! But, it really does help if you can work out how to do it. Completely up to you but would be good to see short video of her alone vs her when Misha's there too. I don't think giving a correction thats going to pull her off her feet is the way to go at all, but some kind of effective correction might be appropriate- depending on whats effective for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Thanks Cos, I will see what I can do re the video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 what drive are you using if she is ignoring you? If you cannot redirect her focus encouraging drive is a step backwards. Your dogs behave for you alone because they have nothing else to feed off. Its similar to how a dog behaves well at home then plays up on the street. You are not leader to them completely, you have your control on a borderline and having anything too close crosses that border pushing them into uncontrollable territory. put the treats away and get those dogs listening to you. If you are having issues with too much prey I would be suppressing it not encouraging it as its backfiring for you. I walk 3 dogs together, yet the rules are there all the time - my word is final, no one gets excited or pulls or carries on. They walk by me unless I say otherwise and thats that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) I don't use drive or do any drive training when we are on walks. ETA: Also just to add - she doesn't ignore me often. As I said on our walks she is great and very responsive the vast majority of the time. It's when I walk Micha that she seems too excitable and more easily distracted although definitely not 'uncontrollable'. The times that she gets really focused on a scent are, as I said, very very occasional. Edited July 2, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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