What Would You Do

[nickojoy]

Would what you do if you got a pup and you had its tests done and they were either affected or a carrier of Genetic Diseases?

Of course you would change it to limited register, and get it desexed at the earliest age. Would you then try and rehome it, keep it or send it back to the breeder and hope they will give you some of your money back?

[MolassesLass]

If purchased as a pet, sports dog or show dog:

If it were a carrier I would do nothing, it makes no difference to anything.

If it were affected then I would be asking for a full refund of the purchase price if the condition would negatively effect the dog, cost money to treat etc.

If purchased as a breeding prospect then I wouldn't have purchased the pup without the parents being tested for the condition. A carrier would not be the end of the world though.

[Sandra777]

If purchased as a pet, sports dog or show dog:

If it were a carrier I would do nothing, it makes no difference to anything.

If it were affected then I would be asking for a full refund of the purchase price if the condition would negatively effect the dog, cost money to treat etc.

If purchased as a breeding prospect then I wouldn't have purchased the pup without the parents being tested for the condition. A carrier would not be the end of the world though.

Agree totally. ETA: If it was a carrier I wouldn't necessarily be spaying/neutering or placing on limit register either. It can still be shown and depending on the condiiton bred from.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Sandra777

[poodlefan]

If purchased as a pet, sports dog or show dog:

If it were a carrier I would do nothing, it makes no difference to anything.

If it were affected then I would be asking for a full refund of the purchase price if the condition would negatively effect the dog, cost money to treat etc.

If purchased as a breeding prospect then I wouldn't have purchased the pup without the parents being tested for the condition. A carrier would not be the end of the world though.

Agree totally.

Me three. Although dependant on the condition, being a carrier isn't the end of the road for a dog's breeding prospects, provided its only bred to clear dogs.

Edited June 26, 2009 by poodlefan

[Dogsfevr]

The should be informed .Like others have said it would all depend on the whole package & understanding what its acarrier for & if the dog is a good example breed correctly to a clear & all stock tested there will be no issues.

I wouldnt be asking the breeder for a refund because you obviously picked a breeder who doesnt DNA test so you new the risks

[Janba]

One of my dogs was bought from a breeder just after CL DNA testing became available and he had known carriers on both sides of his pedigree (5 gen back). I bought him on the condition that purchase price and all costs were refunded if he turned out to be affected on a DNA test. He was clear but as it turns out has a high probability of being a carrier of another disease based on DNA testing of his relatives when that test became available. Youn do need to ask and get in writing these conditions before purchase if possible.

Carrier status would not worry me in a dog if that dog was what I wanted in a dog because as others have said they will never get the disease and if bred to a clear dog will never have affected offspring.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Janba

[JulesP]

I knew that there was a potential for my girl to be a carrier. She was. I was disappointed but ended up getting her desexed for other reasons. I could have bred with her to a clear dog btw. Due to this genetic issue the owner of her sire does not allow dogs to be sold on full registry so that there is control over breeding.

I guess it depends on what you planned for the dog. I would be very upset if a puppy was affected. As that would mean that someone has lied about testing as I only buy dogs from parents that have been tested.

[oakway]

Put it this way I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[ellz]

I owned a dog (prior to DNA testing) who was obviously a carrier as he had sired affected offspring. He had also sired clear offspring and those are in other clear breeding programs.

The beauty of DNA is that you are able to make EDUCATED decisions based upon fact, not "guesstimations" based upon the law of probability. Many dogs which are producing beautiful type and temperaments are able to be retained in a breeding program, where previously, they would have been eliminated on "what-ifs". That is the beauty of DNA.

The ONLY dog that I would eliminate from a breeding program now, based upon DNA testing is a dog which is affected. By all Mendalian principles a dog which is affected can only EVER produce affected stock, whilst a carrier can still produce clear stock.

[WreckitWhippet]

Would what you do if you got a pup and you had its tests done and they were either affected or a carrier of Genetic Diseases?

Of course you would change it to limited register, and get it desexed at the earliest age. Would you then try and rehome it, keep it or send it back to the breeder and hope they will give you some of your money back?

Carriers are just that and given that offspring can be tested it's not an issue, providing that they are all tested prior to sale. Any affected animal should be removed from the gene pool.

It's upto a breeder to change a pup down to the limit register not a buyer.

The moral of the story is , don't buy it in the first place

[dancinbcs]

The whole point of DNA testing is to allow for the safe use of carriers in a breeding program. It was never intended for carriers to be removed from the gene pool and depending on the condition it is possible to sometimes breed an affected to a clear resulting in only carrier progeny, not affected. This is certainly the the case for CEA which often has no inpact on the life of an affected dog. So long as you are not producing more affected puppies it doesn't matter what you breed from. As has already been stated it is all about informed decisions.

[nickojoy]

So what are the results if you breed a clear and a carrier? 50% clear?

[wylie]

Clear to Clear 100 per cent Clear

Clear to Carrier on average 50 per cent Clear and 50 per cent Carriers

Clear to Affected all are Carriers

[nickojoy]

Clear to Clear 100 per cent Clear

Clear to Carrier on average 50 per cent Clear and 50 per cent Carriers

Clear to Affected all are Carriers

So breeders shouldn't be breeding with a carrier as they should be breeding to improve the breed and breed out the defects of the breed? You have no idea at the end of the day that selling a bitch/dog to someone on limited register and them breeding from it as a BYB.

[wylie]

Nickojoy you really havent read any of the responses have you??

When DNA testing came out for example in Border Collies, we had CEA then not long after we had a DNA test for CL and then not long after that we had a DNA test for TNS.

With 3 DNA tests many dogs would have been precluded from many breeding programs due to their carrier status. Wise breeders chose to work with the DNA status of their dogs and work towards a Clear program. However there is also the problem that if you only breed for Clears what else are you going to change in the breed or what other disease is going to be brought to the fore front.

When the CEA testing was done many dogs came back as Carriers and some were Affected all of them had Clear eye certificates however.

I was hit with my 2 stud dogs at the time and their progeny all on the whole being Carriers. I have chosen to continue my breeding program with my carriers in the hope one day my lines will be clear of CEA. However i do not want to currently deal with carriers of CL or TNS however i may in the future as there is a dog i would dearly love to breed who is a carrier of one.

As breeders those of us who have Carrier lines are very upfront about our puppies possible status. Most would put pups on Limit Register with a desexing agreement. We all hopefully screen buyers so that they do not land in the hands of potential backyard breeders.

And Carrier status does not mean that a breeder is not breeding to the standard or not trying to better the breed. Style Type and Lines are lost due to people removing carriers from a breeding program sometimes to the major detriment of the breed.

Carrier status is no worse or no better than a breeder putting 2 dogs together in there backyard who have no real breed type but are registered as a pure breed with there respective state body.

There is far more to breeding dogs than just there DNA status in any breeding program, temperament, health in other areas including hips and elbows, style, type and structure are all things that breeders take into account. DNA status is just one more variable to have to deal with.

[piper]

So breeders shouldn't be breeding with a carrier as they should be breeding to improve the breed and breed out the defects of the breed? You have no idea at the end of the day that selling a bitch/dog to someone on limited register and them breeding from it as a BYB.

In some breeds if you threw out all carriers of something you would leave a very narrow gene pool and potentially open up other problems.

A mating to a carrier is safe if it is done with thought and planning - that is that the other half of the mating is DNA normal. I am yet to breed my first litter but have here a girl who is DNA normal for 3 different diseases and I would not hesitate to use a carrier over her provided that dog was going to give me other things that my girl needs. If I did use a carrier over her then progeny would be tested and purchasers clearly informed of what the results mean to their pup should they turn out to be a carrier and that is that they own a dog that is genetically proven not to have 1 of the diseases able to be tested for but does cary the gene and could potentially pass it on. The dog would be placed on limit and this explained to the owners and why.

[nickojoy]

Nickojoy you really havent read any of the responses have you??

When DNA testing came out for example in Border Collies, we had CEA then not long after we had a DNA test for CL and then not long after that we had a DNA test for TNS.

With 3 DNA tests many dogs would have been precluded from many breeding programs due to their carrier status. Wise breeders chose to work with the DNA status of their dogs and work towards a Clear program. However there is also the problem that if you only breed for Clears what else are you going to change in the breed or what other disease is going to be brought to the fore front.

When the CEA testing was done many dogs came back as Carriers and some were Affected all of them had Clear eye certificates however.

I was hit with my 2 stud dogs at the time and their progeny all on the whole being Carriers. I have chosen to continue my breeding program with my carriers in the hope one day my lines will be clear of CEA. However i do not want to currently deal with carriers of CL or TNS however i may in the future as there is a dog i would dearly love to breed who is a carrier of one.

As breeders those of us who have Carrier lines are very upfront about our puppies possible status. Most would put pups on Limit Register with a desexing agreement. We all hopefully screen buyers so that they do not land in the hands of potential backyard breeders.

And Carrier status does not mean that a breeder is not breeding to the standard or not trying to better the breed. Style Type and Lines are lost due to people removing carriers from a breeding program sometimes to the major detriment of the breed.

Carrier status is no worse or no better than a breeder putting 2 dogs together in there backyard who have no real breed type but are registered as a pure breed with there respective state body.

There is far more to breeding dogs than just there DNA status in any breeding program, temperament, health in other areas including hips and elbows, style, type and structure are all things that breeders take into account. DNA status is just one more variable to have to deal with.

Thanks, now that explains it all to me.

So a breeder that is breeding with a clear x carrier would DNA test the pups prior to registering the litter?

Would the price of the carrier pup be cheaper than a clear pup?

I'm new to all this DNA stuff, and want to learn as much as I can.

Also I have all the GT pets stuff here that arrived in the mail today, has anyone ever had a coat colour testing done (Locus CCT), if so is this to limit the undesired colours or to know what could be produced with a mating?

[wylie]

None of my pups are discounted they all cost exactly the same to produce.

As i usually keep something from a litter only on Main and the remainder go on Limit there is no need to test in my eyes. Tho in saying that some breeders will DNA test for CL or TNS as it is far cheaper to do.

Unfortunately $180 to DNA a pup is not a high priority to me for Limit registered pups as they are only potentially carriers and not affected.

I have a friend who DNA tests for Colour in her Border collies especially in regards to the ee red gene but she is overseas. She does it for the knowledge as to what may be produced in a litter down the track. She DNA tested one of the girls i sent her and was quietly pleased she was an ee red carrier which was confirmed with her second litter.

[Sandra777]

So breeders shouldn't be breeding with a carrier as they should be breeding to improve the breed and breed out the defects of the breed?

Why should breeders not breed from a carrier if they know what they're doing? Yes we breed to improve the breed but "breeding out the defects" - most breeders I know breed for health & temperament first, then breed for VIRTUES. People trying to "breed out defects" tend to end up with mediocre dogs.

You have no idea at the end of the day that selling a bitch/dog to someone on limited register and them breeding from it as a BYB.

Well, if you neuter the carriers then you don't have this problem. With major genetic issues breeding from a carrier is really only acceptable if you then DNA test and neuter the ones you are not keeping control over.

[lappiemum]

Hi Nickojoy-

First, it depends somewhat on what the dog is a carrier of, and secondly, what state you are in! IMO (and speaking generally) if you have a dog that is a carrier (of whatever genetic problem) and you are just showing or have as a pet, that's one thing, but should you wish to breed from that animal, that's another.

In Victoria, they have just released the Code of Practice for Responsible Breeding of Animals with Hertitable Defects that casue Disease (under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1986) (see http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenfa.nsf/L...%20Disease.pdf)

This Code legally binds all VCA registered breeders, and is aimed at giving the consumer some legal protection in relation to known genetically heritable diseases.

Limitations on breeding and requirements of breeders depends on what kind of hertitable disease- the Code names a number of diseases, but there is always possiblity for that to be expanded at a later date.

In terms of breeding, much depends on what kind of gene is defective - for heritable disease caused by a simple dominant defective gene the Code is much more restrictive that for disease caused by a recessive defective gene. In the first instance, breeding carrier to carrier is prohibited (unless as part of an authorised breeding program), and even breeding carrier to clear has requirements: progeny must be tested for the heritable defect; the severity of the disease in the Carrier progeny must be assessed by a veterinary practitioner and the animal managed in accordance with the instructions of a veterinary practitioner; a diseased (Carrier) animal’s must not be disposed of to another person without advice of the animals heritable disease status; a diseased (Carrier) animal must be de-sexed unless they are to be used in an approved breeding program and must not be permitted by their owner to suffer from their condition and must be under the supervision and monitoring of a veterinary practitioner.

So in terms of carriers, you need to understand what the problems are with the breed and what any legal requirement may relate to these diseases. In my breed, we have PRA and heritable cataracts; PRA can be tested for and everything knows (at the moment) who has what, but testing for the cataracts is still being worked on.