Labrador Retriever

[blacklabrador]

[

So maybe the newbie needs to take some responsibility for filtering what is (or what isn't) good advice.

True - but keep in mind the position of being new means that you are in a position of fairly intense disempowerment. Knowledge is power. Who to believe when everybody is telling your something different and nobody seems to get along? Who to trust? How do you know what is good advice?

Some people "have what it takes" and other people might find alternate pastimes which seem to involve less weekend stress. Personally I have all the hard work, negotiating politics and potential stress that I need during my work week. To go somewhere on the weekend that involves negotiating a whole different set of politics, difficult personalities and stress just starts to not look very good after a few years. Just my experience but I know I'm not alone.

[Gottalovealab]

Maybe you should take up your own challenge Pointeeblab - write a book.

I would be the first to buy it because I am always curious to learn what makes dog people tick.

I guess the quality of the mentoring is in the eyes of the receiver.

If newbies are continually "fooled" into taking and acting upon bad advice there is little else to be done.

The minute somebody else steps in and tries to "lend a hand" or offer "an alternate point of view" - guess what happens.

That breeder is slammed by the newbies mentor as being interfering, or worse - is slandered behind his back.

So maybe the newbie needs to take some responsibility for filtering what is (or what isn't) good advice.

And just regarding your suggestion that newbies are leaving because they aren't enjoying themselves?

Like I said in my initial post - the long haul means exactly that - the long haul.

Some have what it takes - others quite clearly don't.

How do you expect new people in the breed to stay for the long haul, when things like you have just mentioned, happen? I doubt it is the best environment to be mentored in or to learn about your choosen breed, especially when all you see is bitching, slandering and the likes. It's little wonder why our sport is slowly declining.

Edited October 25, 2009 by Gottalovealab

[blackdog]

Maybe you should take up your own challenge Pointeeblab - write a book.

I would be the first to buy it because I am always curious to learn what makes dog people tick.

I guess the quality of the mentoring is in the eyes of the receiver.

If newbies are continually "fooled" into taking and acting upon bad advice there is little else to be done.

The minute somebody else steps in and tries to "lend a hand" or offer "an alternate point of view" - guess what happens.

That breeder is slammed by the newbies mentor as being interfering, or worse - is slandered behind his back.

So maybe the newbie needs to take some responsibility for filtering what is (or what isn't) good advice.

And just regarding your suggestion that newbies are leaving because they aren't enjoying themselves?

Like I said in my initial post - the long haul means exactly that - the long haul.

Some have what it takes - others quite clearly don't.

How do you expect new people in the breed to stay for the long haul, when things like you have just mentioned, happen? I doubt it is the best environment to be mentored in or to learn about your choosen breed, especially when all you see is bitching, slandering and the likes. It's little wonder why our sport is slowly declining.

Gotta - I don't "expect" anything of newbies other than they make a decision about what they actually want.

If they don't want to compete and win at the very highest level that's fine.

If they don't want to grow a hide like a Rhino and weather the storm of ctiticism then that's fine too.

But they shouldn't then contribute to these forums crying foul when things don't go there way.

If there is any expectation that showing dogs is like a leisurely wander thru a rose garden - sorry - but it isn't.

After 30 years I am well past entering every show every weekend and being content with just a breed "class" win.

I've invested far too much time and effort and money in my chosen breed - because that's my choice and I've served my apprenticeship I think.

It was a goal that I set myself (as a newbie) about 25+ years ago and to a very large extent I've succeeded.

Oh - and here's another clue - we rarely sit with other Lab people at weekend shows.

That way we tend to avoid all of the politics.

[Joan of Arc]

Maybe you should take up your own challenge Pointeeblab - write a book.

I would be the first to buy it because I am always curious to learn what makes dog people tick.

I guess the quality of the mentoring is in the eyes of the receiver.

If newbies are continually "fooled" into taking and acting upon bad advice there is little else to be done.

The minute somebody else steps in and tries to "lend a hand" or offer "an alternate point of view" - guess what happens.

That breeder is slammed by the newbies mentor as being interfering, or worse - is slandered behind his back.

So maybe the newbie needs to take some responsibility for filtering what is (or what isn't) good advice.

And just regarding your suggestion that newbies are leaving because they aren't enjoying themselves?

Like I said in my initial post - the long haul means exactly that - the long haul.

Some have what it takes - others quite clearly don't.

How do you expect new people in the breed to stay for the long haul, when things like you have just mentioned, happen? I doubt it is the best environment to be mentored in or to learn about your choosen breed, especially when all you see is bitching, slandering and the likes. It's little wonder why our sport is slowly declining.

Gotta - I don't "expect" anything of newbies other than they make a decision about what they actually want.

If they don't want to compete and win at the very highest level that's fine.

If they don't want to grow a hide like a Rhino and weather the storm of ctiticism then that's fine too.

But they shouldn't then contribute to these forums crying foul when things don't go there way.

If there is any expectation that showing dogs is like a leisurely wander thru a rose garden - sorry - but it isn't.

After 30 years I am well past entering every show every weekend and being content with just a breed "class" win.

I've invested far too much time and effort and money in my chosen breed - because that's my choice and I've served my apprenticeship I think.

It was a goal that I set myself (as a newbie) about 25+ years ago and to a very large extent I've succeeded.

Oh - and here's another clue - we rarely sit with other Lab people at weekend shows.

That way we tend to avoid all of the politics. :D

Blackdog

In a great many ways I agree with you and yet we have some differences.

I go to several shows each year, not as many as we could. But I am not that competitive in nature - I have said many times "when I go to a show I pay $10 for a judge's opinion of my dog. If they dont put me up and / or I dont like htier opinion if approached then I wont pay that $10 again". Simply put, I dont show under them again.

The fact that I can no longer show and have to rely on OH to do the running is another reason I am not gungho at the moment. So in that respect we are different. Having said that I dont go to these shows just to win a class - no I'm there for the points - I want to title my girl/s - its better for them and for us if and when they have a litter and of course our current show girl is home bred so that is affirmation of my breeding.

That breeding was encouraged by the person I choose to think of as my mentor and he chose well. I have never met him, spoken to him once or twice but followed his advice. Why? Because I am an educated person and made an educated decision that what he was telling me made sense, it was reasonable, not fantastically unachievable and within my limits both financially and physically. That's all newbies have to do - assess the advice and make a judgement on it. When will people start taking responsibility for thier actions and stop seeking the eternal scapegoat?

I have been showing for many years on and off and when we returned to the show ring 6 years ago I made a conscious decision then to avoid the politics because I find the show ring even bitchier than kids sport.

As for your time and money I understand your approach and applaud anyone who does not adopt a cavalier attitude to life. However I must also add that money and time aside, we have invested too much love in our dogs to allow ourselves to accept a class win.

We also applaud your approach to your seating arrangements. I dont sit with Lab people, in fact we sit with a lady who has two Goldies and 3 Cavies. We always enjoy our shows - we are also there for the social outlet.

[mikelli]

No matter what field anyone chooses to enter there is always going to be the politics, the challenge is to be able to listen to the opinions of those who want to give "advice", then go home and decide which parts to take on board and which bits go in the garbage. The only way to learn is to listen and watch, sure you will not agree with everything, use the bits you need though, new comers need to be able to take advice from experienced handlers......I am still learning after 12 years, some decisions I make turn out right and some wrong, thats life.....

[Joan of Arc]

No matter what field anyone chooses to enter there is always going to be the politics, the challenge is to be able to listen to the opinions of those who want to give "advice", then go home and decide which parts to take on board and which bits go in the garbage. The only way to learn is to listen and watch, sure you will not agree with everything, use the bits you need though, new comers need to be able to take advice from experienced handlers......I am still learning after 12 years, some decisions I make turn out right and some wrong, thats life.....

:D

[blackdog]

No matter what field anyone chooses to enter there is always going to be the politics, the challenge is to be able to listen to the opinions of those who want to give "advice", then go home and decide which parts to take on board and which bits go in the garbage. The only way to learn is to listen and watch, sure you will not agree with everything, use the bits you need though, new comers need to be able to take advice from experienced handlers......I am still learning after 12 years, some decisions I make turn out right and some wrong, thats life.....

:D

Mikelli & Mercedes - I agree with everything that you've contributed to this topic.

You have both clearly demonstrated that what motivates one person may not necessarily be a motivation to another.

In our case had we been content to simply rest on our laurels and bask in the glory of one famous lab that we owned/exhibitted we'd have been out of the dog world by 1995.

But since that great dog held the breed record we have enjoyed owning and exhibitting his daughters, grandaughters and now great grand kids and a grand nephew. And all the time as part of a world class team under the guidance of a master "mentor".

What is now a great satisfaction is that our mentor often asks my opinion about dogs / matings / puppies etc.

And like you Mercedes we absolutely adore our dogs - they are a joy to own and they seem pretty happy and content in our company too.

So often other exhibitors comment about the temperament/attitude of our labs in the ring - "Gee your dogs are so well trained" they say.

But 'ya know what - apart from a bit of show lead and free standing/baiting training early on we don't actually train the dogs at all.

Our labs really just enjoy what we ask them to do - they enjoy being out with us and visa versa.

The two we are currently campaigning (litter bro and sis) both qualified for the Qld Dog of the Year final last night.

Under the rules we can't compete (because of a position I hold on our State Controlling body) but that didn't matter.

The number of fellow (non Lab) competitors who took the time to come and congratulate us on making the finals was very satisfying.

And that is despite the fact that we have qualified a Lab every year since 1992 (or therabouts).

So the dog world can be tremendously rewarding - and yes at times it can be just as depressing.

It's how you approach the game that matters.

If you go to a show not even expecting to win a class and you do - then that's a real hoot.

If you go to a show expecting to win the Breed or the Group or Best in Show and you don't - well you're gunna be disappointed.

[blacklabrador]

Gotta - I don't "expect" anything of newbies other than they make a decision about what they actually want.

If they don't want to compete and win at the very highest level that's fine.

If they don't want to grow a hide like a Rhino and weather the storm of ctiticism then that's fine too.

But they shouldn't then contribute to these forums crying foul when things don't go there way.

If there is any expectation that showing dogs is like a leisurely wander thru a rose garden - sorry - but it isn't.

After 30 years I am well past entering every show every weekend and being content with just a breed "class" win.

I've invested far too much time and effort and money in my chosen breed - because that's my choice and I've served my apprenticeship I think.

It was a goal that I set myself (as a newbie) about 25+ years ago and to a very large extent I've succeeded.

Oh - and here's another clue - we rarely sit with other Lab people at weekend shows.

That way we tend to avoid all of the politics.

I haven't seen anybody in this thread "crying foul" about things not going their way. You suggested that not enough people stay for the "long haul" and it's been explained why that is more than likely the case. Newbies ARE making a decision about what they actually want - and most want out of showing within a few months. If you're not not part of the solution then you're probably part of the problem. Help change the culture for newbies, learn how to effectively mentor people and more will probably stay.

[blackdog]

Gotta - I don't "expect" anything of newbies other than they make a decision about what they actually want.

If they don't want to compete and win at the very highest level that's fine.

If they don't want to grow a hide like a Rhino and weather the storm of ctiticism then that's fine too.

But they shouldn't then contribute to these forums crying foul when things don't go there way.

If there is any expectation that showing dogs is like a leisurely wander thru a rose garden - sorry - but it isn't.

After 30 years I am well past entering every show every weekend and being content with just a breed "class" win.

I've invested far too much time and effort and money in my chosen breed - because that's my choice and I've served my apprenticeship I think.

It was a goal that I set myself (as a newbie) about 25+ years ago and to a very large extent I've succeeded.

Oh - and here's another clue - we rarely sit with other Lab people at weekend shows.

That way we tend to avoid all of the politics.

I haven't seen anybody in this thread "crying foul" about things not going their way. You suggested that not enough people stay for the "long haul" and it's been explained why that is more than likely the case. Newbies ARE making a decision about what they actually want - and most want out of showing within a few months. If you're not not part of the solution then you're probably part of the problem. Help change the culture for newbies, learn how to effectively mentor people and more will probably stay.

Sigh - I don't need to change the culture Pointeeblab.

Every beginner that has ever asked for help or assistance has received it from me.

I have never turned away a newbie - and don't you dare presume to tell me how to mentor somebody new.

If you had taken up the offer a few years back then maybe we wouldn't be having this tit for tat.

Once again you have succeeded in turning what was an interesting and worthwhile topic into a slanging match.

Perhaps your decision to walk away from showing & breeding has been the right one after all.

Exactly what I meant when I spoke about the "long haul" - wanting out after just a few months just doesn't cut it.

[blacklabrador]

Gotta - I don't "expect" anything of newbies other than they make a decision about what they actually want.

If they don't want to compete and win at the very highest level that's fine.

If they don't want to grow a hide like a Rhino and weather the storm of ctiticism then that's fine too.

But they shouldn't then contribute to these forums crying foul when things don't go there way.

If there is any expectation that showing dogs is like a leisurely wander thru a rose garden - sorry - but it isn't.

After 30 years I am well past entering every show every weekend and being content with just a breed "class" win.

I've invested far too much time and effort and money in my chosen breed - because that's my choice and I've served my apprenticeship I think.

It was a goal that I set myself (as a newbie) about 25+ years ago and to a very large extent I've succeeded.

Oh - and here's another clue - we rarely sit with other Lab people at weekend shows.

That way we tend to avoid all of the politics.

I haven't seen anybody in this thread "crying foul" about things not going their way. You suggested that not enough people stay for the "long haul" and it's been explained why that is more than likely the case. Newbies ARE making a decision about what they actually want - and most want out of showing within a few months. If you're not not part of the solution then you're probably part of the problem. Help change the culture for newbies, learn how to effectively mentor people and more will probably stay.

Sigh - I don't need to change the culture Pointeeblab.

Every beginner that has ever asked for help or assistance has received it from me.

I have never turned away a newbie - and don't you dare presume to tell me how to mentor somebody new.

If you had taken up the offer a few years back then maybe we wouldn't be having this tit for tat.

Once again you have succeeded in turning what was an interesting and worthwhile topic into a slanging match.

Perhaps your decision to walk away from showing & breeding has been the right one after all.

Exactly what I meant when I spoke about the "long haul" - wanting out after just a few months just doesn't cut it.

I was speaking generally Blackdog. I haven't walked away from breeding and showing and I think 5 years so far has been a fair go.

But I disagree - if you want newbies to stay then there needs to be a concerted effort by those who are involved in the breed for a long time to change the current culture. What is currently happening is CLEARLY not an attractive environment for people to stay. You can point the finger and say that the newbies are not tough enough or you can see how you can change the situation. This is a worthwhile and interesting topic which existed before I commented.

This is not about you and me - we can have that conversation amongst ourselves.

[mikelli]

Gotta - I don't "expect" anything of newbies other than they make a decision about what they actually want.

If they don't want to compete and win at the very highest level that's fine.

If they don't want to grow a hide like a Rhino and weather the storm of ctiticism then that's fine too.

But they shouldn't then contribute to these forums crying foul when things don't go there way.

If there is any expectation that showing dogs is like a leisurely wander thru a rose garden - sorry - but it isn't.

After 30 years I am well past entering every show every weekend and being content with just a breed "class" win.

I've invested far too much time and effort and money in my chosen breed - because that's my choice and I've served my apprenticeship I think.

It was a goal that I set myself (as a newbie) about 25+ years ago and to a very large extent I've succeeded.

Oh - and here's another clue - we rarely sit with other Lab people at weekend shows.

That way we tend to avoid all of the politics.

I haven't seen anybody in this thread "crying foul" about things not going their way. You suggested that not enough people stay for the "long haul" and it's been explained why that is more than likely the case. Newbies ARE making a decision about what they actually want - and most want out of showing within a few months. If you're not not part of the solution then you're probably part of the problem. Help change the culture for newbies, learn how to effectively mentor people and more will probably stay.

Sigh - I don't need to change the culture Pointeeblab.

Every beginner that has ever asked for help or assistance has received it from me.

I have never turned away a newbie - and don't you dare presume to tell me how to mentor somebody new.

If you had taken up the offer a few years back then maybe we wouldn't be having this tit for tat.

Once again you have succeeded in turning what was an interesting and worthwhile topic into a slanging match.

Perhaps your decision to walk away from showing & breeding has been the right one after all.

Exactly what I meant when I spoke about the "long haul" - wanting out after just a few months just doesn't cut it.

I was speaking generally Blackdog. I haven't walked away from breeding and showing and I think 5 years so far has been a fair go.

But I disagree - if you want newbies to stay then there needs to be a concerted effort by those who are involved in the breed for a long time to change the current culture. What is currently happening is CLEARLY not an attractive environment for people to stay. You can point the finger and say that the newbies are not tough enough or you can see how you can change the situation. This is a worthwhile and interesting topic which existed before I commented.

This is not about you and me - we can have that conversation amongst ourselves.

Unfortunately this is a tough game for anyone to break into. Sometimes new exhibitors come in with sub standard dogs, but the biggest problem some of them face is inexperience with handling, try as they may, it is very hard to compete with the experienced handler that is well known by all at the shows.

It takes lots of practice not only to show off your dog to its best but also to appear confident yourself, you will find most exhibitors that win have mastered that "you WILL award this class to ME" look about them, and I know from bitter experience that that "attitude" is what is hard to beat.....sure takes more than a few months to get the confidence to go out and mix it with the old hands.....but it is fun trying.....we thoroughly enjoy shows, not only to parade our dogs but also for the social aspect. Maybe this is a little more relaxed in the country, but most people are very friendly and are usually willing to give a hand or some advice, as I said before, take it all on board and then go home and bin what you don't agree with, or can't use....

It is all well and good being a good mentor, but at the end of the day we are all out there to win with our dogs and that is where the experience usually shines through, like it or not.....experienced handlers also have the ability to make an ordinary dog look really really good, conversely an inexperienced handler can make a very very good dog look average....

This is all only my opinion and there are many out there who will not agree and that is their prerogative......

Edited October 25, 2009 by mikelli

[Gottalovealab]

I do disagree with you, Blackdog, on the comments regarding who to sit with. I do have numerous people i can sit with at any given show, but usually choose to sit with a bunch of Lab people that compete against each other and are non the wiser when the other wins or vise versa...No politics in that tent. Each has the mentality that the opinion of the judge is just that...An opinion. If the judge doesn't award your dog on the day..Don't show under them again or whatever pleases you. Great atmosphere at a show here, I really enjoy it and don't necessarily have to develop the "thick skin" that you mention. Sure, i'm not saying that politics is entirely absent, but luckily here it's kept at a minimum. I am pretty sure any newbie coming into our breed, would only need to see the divide that breeds tend to develop between the people involved and realise that they would have a hell of a time enjoying showing.

[Joan of Arc]

You are extremely lucky Gotta, that there is little or no politics where you are. Even in the bush we get the politics - you cant escape it - even when you dont stay for GS the news of the 'gossip' beats you back to your home town.

As a newbie to the breed I have been very lucky to be supported by the breeder or our first dog and then he also endorsed my choice of stud for our bitch.

I have included a couple of photos of the girl we kept from that litter who is now almost half way through her title and competes next weekend for her Novice title also.

My mentor has been kind enough to offer to help me in my search for a suitable stud for her. I have always been an open person and if I want help I ask. I have been fortunate that this person has never said no and I trust them implicitly - after all they have no reason to lie to me. Another educated estimation.

HOwever I am always open to advice and would never complain if someone was to offer me thier opinion. That's how people learn, look, listen and estimate what works best for them

[blacklabrador]

You are extremely lucky Gotta, that there is little or no politics where you are. Even in the bush we get the politics - you cant escape it - even when you dont stay for GS the news of the 'gossip' beats you back to your home town.

As a newbie to the breed I have been very lucky to be supported by the breeder or our first dog and then he also endorsed my choice of stud for our bitch.

I have included a couple of photos of the girl we kept from that litter who is now almost half way through her title and competes next weekend for her Novice title also.

My mentor has been kind enough to offer to help me in my search for a suitable stud for her. I have always been an open person and if I want help I ask. I have been fortunate that this person has never said no and I trust them implicitly - after all they have no reason to lie to me. Another educated estimation.

HOwever I am always open to advice and would never complain if someone was to offer me thier opinion. That's how people learn, look, listen and estimate what works best for them

There are some wonderful mentors within dog showing for sure! I've known lovely mentors within other breeds that I've had the pleasure of owning and showing (CC and Pom) as well as some of the lovely Pointer people I have come to know. To me, somebody that I want as a mentor is somebody who conducts themselves ethically and professionally at the ring side, who shows impeccable sportsmanship amongst other things. Somebody who shows no arrogance or elitism, who is down to earth. Here are some other mentor attributes that I found in a web article.

WHAT A MENTOR IS:

– A Teacher & Coach

– A Developer of Potential

– A Sponsor & Guide

– A Counselor

– A Cheerleader

– An AdmirableRole Model

WHAT A MENTOR IS NOT:

– A Superior

– A “Trainer”

– Someone to show you the loopholes

– An Intimidator

– Someone who chastises

– An Unscrupulous Role Model

– A Friend – An Antagonist

[pesh]

Hi All

I wash a black lab, and his coat goes steal blue at times.

They don't feed him anything odd, the only thing he has that might make a difference is fish, and plenty of it, the owner is a fisherman. So Boof gets the rough bits and pieces.

It's not the product I use, as I have a few black labs and plenty of black coats on the books and they all go well with this wash.

I'm just worried it's a health issue with this boy. He is vet checked, and well taken care of, just the colour is odd.

Maybe he's a new colour lab................

Any suggestions?

Thx in advance....

Sharon

ps.....yes the owner does know I'm asking this question, as he also is wondering.

[blacklabrador]

Hi All

I wash a black lab, and his coat goes steal blue at times.

They don't feed him anything odd, the only thing he has that might make a difference is fish, and plenty of it, the owner is a fisherman. So Boof gets the rough bits and pieces.

It's not the product I use, as I have a few black labs and plenty of black coats on the books and they all go well with this wash.

I'm just worried it's a health issue with this boy. He is vet checked, and well taken care of, just the colour is odd.

Maybe he's a new colour lab................

Any suggestions?

Thx in advance....

Sharon

ps.....yes the owner does know I'm asking this question, as he also is wondering.

Peshy this is clearly a rare silver lab who should be bred from ASAP.

When the coat changes is it the whole hair? Guard hairs and undercoat or both? How long does it stay discoloured for?

I clearly have no idea, but more information might help somebody else figure it out.

[MissMonaro]

MM I have seen you do it tough for a long time and I have great respect for your persistance. You've worked hard for your success

Pointeeblab.....it has been a long tough haul so far, thats for sure. I still have that desire to succeed - and we finally have some sound dogs to work with - but do have to admit that this last year has been the most challenging in regards to ppl within my breed (unfortunately) and hence why I have felt very disheartened and have felt several times about giving the breed up.

But everytime I step out my back door and see those beautiful faces light up, I realise that I still get so much enjoyment from my Labs and I really do love the breed.

So I'm not quite giving up just yet.

p.s. I was going to add.....maybe its one of those rare "charcoal" ones from America.

Pesh - nothing really to add from me - sorry I cant offer any advice - except I have seen some black dogs that look "black" and some look black, but when standing together, the colour isnt quite as deep.

Edited October 25, 2009 by MissMonaro

[Lab lady]

I have been out of the show scene for quite some time now and it’s interesting to read that the same issues that were around then are still being raised today.

I am surprised though to hear others say that there is a lack of mentors. I know when I first started out there was plenty of help to be found. Maybe I was lucky that I started at a time when the numbers in the ring were high and there was plenty of experienced people to seek advise from and most were willing to lend a hand and there was those who had been around a shorter amount of time but still very welcoming to the newbies. I was also lucky to have a great mentor when I begun who was very willing to help me seek advise from others with skills that she lacked. Had it not been for her I would have most likely given up at my first show after a long time breeder told me that for me to do any good with my girl I would need to go to the country shows to get any points. Her advice was the type of advise that gives the sport a bad name and the type I chose to ignore.

New people will always be entering the show scene and some will stay and others will depart for a variety of reasons. No amount of mentoring will keep them all there. Saying we need to change the culture is all good but in reality I don’t think it will ever happen. Plenty have tried and and from what I have been reading here nothing has really changed. I know when I was on the Lab club (nsw) committee it was a point that often come up, I think every club struggles with getting new people involved and keeping them involved seems even harder. The reality is that the show ring is an event of competition and the truth is everyone is there to win, some are happy if the wins are just every now and then but some aren’t and some in the process of trying will use politics and backstabbing to get there. Even if all the politics and backstabbing were removed the truth is people would still come and go, we all have different views and directions in life.

Having said that I don’t for one minute condone what goes on and nor do I believe we should stop trying to wipe it out, but even if the red carpet was rolled out for every new person and they where given a personal long time breeder and exhibitor to guide them step by step there are those that would come and go.

Gotta, I agree with Mercedes you are lucky to have a friendly environment for showing but I don’t think it’s the case in all states but I do believe you need a think skin to survive but most of all I think you need a passion for the breed. Sadly for me I lost my passion for showing but I still have a passion for the breed.

[blacklabrador]

Lablady - I agree, I don't think it will change. But I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

[Joan of Arc]

Pesh I cant help you with the colour thing except to saya that our two black girls get an auburn tinge to thier coats when they are carrying dead coat. Someone once told be it was because I fed them Livermol but I know its dead coat.

But steel blue - ghee not sure