Labrador Retriever

[blackdog]

Given the popularity of this breed and the number of registered breeders breeding litters from untitled parents, how would breeders and fanciers recommend people go about selecting a quality, ethical, responsible breeder?

Excellent question Poodlefan.

I personally I believe there needs to be some sort of ANKC endorsed state implemented Breeder Accreditation program.

But at present there is nothing to guide the unsuspecting puppy buyer.

Maybe you can assist - if you were a family wanting a lab puppy how would you go about aquiring one?

[poodlefan]

Given the popularity of this breed and the number of registered breeders breeding litters from untitled parents, how would breeders and fanciers recommend people go about selecting a quality, ethical, responsible breeder?

Excellent question Poodlefan.

I personally I believe there needs to be some sort of ANKC endorsed state implemented Breeder Accreditation program.

But at present there is nothing to guide the unsuspecting puppy buyer.

Maybe you can assist - if you were a family wanting a lab puppy how would you go about aquiring one?

I started a thread about this the other day.. It's here

But in light of Bindi Boo's experience buying a CKCS, I'm not sure I've gone far enough. I think we all know of a few breeders that look the goods but really aren't.

Just trolling the Lab breeders' listings there seem to be a hell of a lot of breeders who don't seem to do much with their dogs other than breed. There seems to be a hell of a lot of colour breeding happening too. I also know of some absolute horror stories of pups (not Labs) sourced from very high profile exhibitors who failed to deliver on a lot of promises.

It's a minefield. If DOLers have trouble sorting the wheat from the chaff, how is a novice puppy buyer going to fare? I will admit to being one of the persons talked about in this thread who's talked about highly exciteable destructive Labs that owner have trouble with -because I've seen them and know the owners.

These dogs aren't necessarily ANKC registered or coming from the top echelon of responsible breeders - so how does a person find the right Lab breeder. It really concerns me, particularly in the very popular breeds that attract the more high volume, profit oriented kind of breeder.

Edited October 14, 2009 by poodlefan

[Joan of Arc]

I'll start the ball rolling with one simple suggestion and let others make one each.

ANKC/State controlling bodies need to create public education programs - in consultation with breed bodies.

Its not the only answer but it one suggestion

Edited October 14, 2009 by mercedes

[MissMonaro]

[blackdog]

Poor MM - what's the matter.

Maybe you need a coffee :D and a good lie down ;)

[MissMonaro]

:D ;)

Just waiting for you to give us your answers to the 3 things.

Edited October 15, 2009 by MissMonaro

[Mas1981]

Given the popularity of this breed and the number of registered breeders breeding litters from untitled parents, how would breeders and fanciers recommend people go about selecting a quality, ethical, responsible breeder?

Excellent question Poodlefan.

I personally I believe there needs to be some sort of ANKC endorsed state implemented Breeder Accreditation program.

But at present there is nothing to guide the unsuspecting puppy buyer.

Maybe you can assist - if you were a family wanting a lab puppy how would you go about aquiring one?

I started a thread about this the other day.. It's here

But in light of Bindi Boo's experience buying a CKCS, I'm not sure I've gone far enough. I think we all know of a few breeders that look the goods but really aren't.

Just trolling the Lab breeders' listings there seem to be a hell of a lot of breeders who don't seem to do much with their dogs other than breed. There seems to be a hell of a lot of colour breeding happening too. I also know of some absolute horror stories of pups (not Labs) sourced from very high profile exhibitors who failed to deliver on a lot of promises.

It's a minefield. If DOLers have trouble sorting the wheat from the chaff, how is a novice puppy buyer going to fare? I will admit to being one of the persons talked about in this thread who's talked about highly exciteable destructive Labs that owner have trouble with -because I've seen them and know the owners.

These dogs aren't necessarily ANKC registered or coming from the top echelon of responsible breeders - so how does a person find the right Lab breeder. It really concerns me, particularly in the very popular breeds that attract the more high volume, profit oriented kind of breeder.

A dog is only as destructive and excitable as you let it be, training is the key.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Masons_mom

[blackdog]

Just waiting for you to give us your answers to the 3 things.

Oh alright then MM - here goes:

Before I reveal my "three things" confronting our breed can I just make the point that we as professional breeders need to tidy up our "backyard first" - how - by implementing the following:

1. A nationally endorsed (and breeder supported) ANKC Breeder Accreditation programme. (benefits for all ped reg dogs not just Labs).

2. Lab National Breed Council endorsement of "recommended" upper level hip & elbow scores + compulsory DNA eye testing.

3. A requirement that stock from an accreditted breeder must "make it's mark" in one of the many recognised canine disciplines.

And the three big issues (4 actually) confronting Labs at present IMHO:

1. Overpopularity (chocolates in particular).

2. 75% of all ANKC Lab breeders are not visible - nobody knows their prefix, sees their dogs - they simply breed for the pet market.

2. Abuse of the Limited register/Main register - Pet Quality/Show Quality "hoax" being unleashed on the unsuspecting puppy buyer.

3. Lack of "new" dedicated breed enthusiasts coming into the breed and staying for the long haul.

[MissMonaro]

Thanks Blackdog.

Although I do note you have two no. 2 points.....

I definately do agree on some of those points, but can you clarify a bit more on the limited / main register thing a little bit ??

As for the "new" people coming in to the breed. I think there are plenty of those - too many that unfortunately, and I refer to your points, are breeding strictly for the pet market, and or following that quick colour fad thing, and never do anything to actively promote the breed.

We are relatively new to the breeding side of things and we have found that sadly there just feels a real lack of "genuine/honest" people to talk too and/or help/mentor new breeders.

Dont get me wrong, there are a small amount of breeders that have been helpful to us and for which we have been most appreciative....however, we have also found that some breeders are all too quick to cut each others throats, and trying to find information about certain "lines" is like banging your head against a brick wall at times. This is very disheartening and also why many probably don't stay in the breed, or drop out of the system, and breed "pets".

[blackdog]

Thanks Blackdog.

Although I do note you have two no. 2 points.....

I definately do agree on some of those points, but can you clarify a bit more on the limited / main register thing a little bit ??

As for the "new" people coming in to the breed. I think there are plenty of those - too many that unfortunately, and I refer to your points, are breeding strictly for the pet market, and or following that quick colour fad thing, and never do anything to actively promote the breed.

We are relatively new to the breeding side of things and we have found that sadly there just feels a real lack of "genuine/honest" people to talk too and/or help/mentor new breeders.

Dont get me wrong, there are a small amount of breeders that have been helpful to us and for which we have been most appreciative....however, we have also found that some breeders are all too quick to cut each others throats, and trying to find information about certain "lines" is like banging your head against a brick wall at times. This is very disheartening and also why many probably don't stay in the breed, or drop out of the system, and breed "pets".

:D

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

The issue I have with Main/Limited register is this.

As you know Childbride and I always try to "run on" the best two/three babies from our litters for ourselves.

That way we keep the best for our show team or to supply for "show puppy" orders.

All of the other babies are placed on the Limited register - because in our opinion they are not show quality.

It's not that they aren't high quality youngsters - just that they don't meet our high standards/hurdle rates.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

Far too many unsuspecting puppy buyers purchase inferior quality puppies on main register in the mistaken belief that they are of show quality.

And when they fail miseraby in the early Baby / Minor classes these people disappear never to be seen again.

Or - as you suggest MM - they reappear two years later in the litter registration listings.

And sometimes even the most experienced of us can and do make mistakes.

I had a recent experience with some newbie clients - all they wanted was a Black, Male PET quality puppy.

I had one available and away they went - nice puppy but a bit too overdone for a show puppy IMO.

At 12 months of age these people expressed a desire to show the dog.

As I'd predicted the dog was too strong in head, quite a dominant temperament and not enough backend.

I tried to discourage them on at least 3 different occassions but they wouldn't let up and eventually I gave in.

I signed the document to transfer the dog from Limited to Main register and guess what happened.

The dog has been belted every time it has been entered in an Open show (and deservedly so too).

Now I'm the one copping the "criticism" for selling these people a dog that's not of "show quality".

If these clients had been "up front" with me in the first place I would have ensured they received a "show quality" puppy.

So should I have refused to transfer the dog from Limited onto Main Register?

Should I have simply ignored their requests entirely and stood my ground?

Or did I do the right thing by allowing these people to experience first hand just how hard it is to exhibit a mediocre quality Lab?

Had I not relented the CCCQ would have missed out on yet another membership, as would the LRCQ.

And just maybe these people will get the message, book a show quality youngster in the future and become dedicated long term Lab enthusiasts.

I'd be interested to hear other opinions please - I've beaten myself up enough about this particular incident.

And just in closing MM - I understand how difficult it must seem at times trying to get reliable advice.

But there is nothing more frustrating when one's advice is eagerly sought after and it is provided openly and honestly.

And in the very next breath the newbie goes and does the complete bloody opposite - and guess what?

When things do go wrong who do they turn to for a shoulder to cry on?

The original breeder they sought advice from in the first place - sigh.

Mentoring implies a two-way street in my mind.

It suggests to me that a new exhibitor/breeder will commit to supporting an experienced breeder in such a way soas to serve an "apprenticeship".

By that I mean - to help and assist with handling the dogs and "learning the ropes" until a suitable show puppy becomes available.

And it also suggests that the breeder will take a chance on a "newbie" in the hope that they eventually develop the necessary smarts.

Far too many are in it for a quick fix IMO.

And there are also significant numbers of what I describe as "back door bandits" - these are people who won't front up and place an order for a top quality puppy directly - they lurk in the shadows and "aquire" dogs and bitches from particular bloodlines through the "backdoor".

They won't wait, don't want to "waste time" learning - they've got to have something RIGHT NOW.

And in so doing they again end up with something which is mediocre at best and then they wonder why they never make any headway.

Anyway - I've had enough of a vent - time to sit back now and wait for the fallout.

[Steve]

I have a lab bitch here which I picked up off the plane about 5 days ago. Her elbows are 0.0. and her hips are 1.4 .She was thought to be in whelp so was taken to have an ultrasound last Monday.Ultra sound says no pups but she is putting on weight right before my eyes and looks pregnant to me. What are the odds? I dont know the breed. Looks like I'm in for a crash course.

The survey is showing hips, elbows and skin problems -eyes and hearts are only about 1% less than most other breeds.

That may change but there are almost 100 repsondents in this breed so far.

[Joan of Arc]

Blackdog this is an extensive post, I would like to respond to most of it but it needs some digestion before doing so. Therefore I will respond to some of it and later to the balance.

The issue I have with Main/Limited register is this.

As you know Childbride and I always try to "run on" the best two/three babies from our litters for ourselves.

That way we keep the best for our show team or to supply for "show puppy" orders.

All of the other babies are placed on the Limited register - because in our opinion they are not show quality.

It's not that they aren't high quality youngsters - just that they don't meet our high standards/hurdle rates.

While I certainly agree with the majority of your comment here I would like to add. We are only new to the breed as you know and have had a minimal number or litters (although I have shown on and off since my teen years and bred other breeds). We kept two girls from our first litter because in consultation with the sire's owner we couldnt choose between them. A third girl went to Perth (ostensibly to be shown but that neve happened). All other pups from a litter of 8 were limited register and went to very good homes. Which I might add we hear from regularly with the exception of one.

The last litter only one boy was put on Main register and is living with our son. The rest were placed on limited register. Depsite the fact that there was at least one other we would have liked to have run on for a couple of months. But for most of us there is insufficient space to accommodate what would have then amounted to 8 Labs.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

I ask the same amount for my pups no matter who is buying them or for what reason. And that includes when Guide Dogs or ADA approach us.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

Far too many unsuspecting puppy buyers purchase inferior quality puppies on main register in the mistaken belief that they are of show quality.

I choose to think that given my bitches come from excellent lines and I return to those lines (within suitable pedigrees) for studs that all my pups are quality pups. As for being 'show' quality, I see many in the ring that do not belong there. And it is unfortunate that some of them are successful for reasons that we will not enter in to here.

And when they fail miseraby in the early Baby / Minor classes these people disappear never to be seen again.

Or - as you suggest MM - they reappear two years later in the litter registration listings.

I emphsise the point to make it crystal clear to people when they purchase a pup from us that "this pup is not suitable for showing NOR is it suitable for breeding. This pup is on the limited register so it can not be shown, bred from or exported" What more can you do? given that I do not endorse the early desexing programmes

And sometimes even the most experienced of us can and do make mistakes.

I had a recent experience with some newbie clients - all they wanted was a Black, Male PET quality puppy.

I had one available and away they went - nice puppy but a bit too overdone for a show puppy IMO.

At 12 months of age these people expressed a desire to show the dog.

As I'd predicted the dog was too strong in head, quite a dominant temperament and not enough backend.

I tried to discourage them on at least 3 different occassions but they wouldn't let up and eventually I gave in.

I signed the document to transfer the dog from Limited to Main register and guess what happened.

The dog has been belted every time it has been entered in an Open show (and deservedly so too).

Now I'm the one copping the "criticism" for selling these people a dog that's not of "show quality".

If these clients had been "up front" with me in the first place I would have ensured they received a "show quality" puppy.

So should I have refused to transfer the dog from Limited onto Main Register?

Should I have simply ignored their requests entirely and stood my ground?

Or did I do the right thing by allowing these people to experience first hand just how hard it is to exhibit a mediocre quality Lab?

Had I not relented the CCCQ would have missed out on yet another membership, as would the LRCQ.

And just maybe these people will get the message, book a show quality youngster in the future and become dedicated long term Lab enthusiasts.

I'd be interested to hear other opinions please - I've beaten myself up enough about this particular incident.

I'll have to come back to that question - the answer will take some thought and composing

And just in closing MM - I understand how difficult it must seem at times trying to get reliable advice.

But there is nothing more frustrating when one's advice is eagerly sought after and it is provided openly and honestly.

And in the very next breath the newbie goes and does the complete bloody opposite - and guess what?

When things do go wrong who do they turn to for a shoulder to cry on?

The original breeder they sought advice from in the first place - sigh.

Mentoring implies a two-way street in my mind.

It suggests to me that a new exhibitor/breeder will commit to supporting an experienced breeder in such a way soas to serve an "apprenticeship".

By that I mean - to help and assist with handling the dogs and "learning the ropes" until a suitable show puppy becomes available.

And it also suggests that the breeder will take a chance on a "newbie" in the hope that they eventually develop the necessary smarts.

I have witnessed this situation many times since my teens and seen the success if can produce.

I have been fortunate enough to be in a situation where a very reputable and successful breeder has offered me advice on more than one occassion. I have always tried to follow that advice and take heed of all that is said or written. Sometimes distance is the biggest factor - that breeder, as they know, is some 1500kms from me and although email etc is helpful, there is nothing like picking a puppy up to look at it. How do you explain to your 'mentor' or helpful breeder what you are thinking or looking at when you are not certain you are all speaking the same language.

Nevertheless I am careful to try and follow thier directions and do my research. But then you start to feel that you may be a burden or that you are stalking them. I guess I am trying to say its just as hard to do the right thing as it is easy to do the wrong thing - does that make sense?

Far too many are in it for a quick fix IMO.

And there are also significant numbers of what I describe as "back door bandits" - these are people who won't front up and place an order for a top quality puppy directly - they lurk in the shadows and "aquire" dogs and bitches from particular bloodlines through the "backdoor".

They won't wait, don't want to "waste time" learning - they've got to have something RIGHT NOW.

And in so doing they again end up with something which is mediocre at best and then they wonder why they never make any headway.

Anyway - I've had enough of a vent - time to sit back now and wait for the fallout.

[mikelli]

This is a copy of an email I received recently, I had been previously contacted by this person and I had told her the price of my puppies as well as all the usual info that we give people with genuine enquiries.....

"just asking if i'm able to buy a female puppie from you that may be the Runt of the litter or a Reject as i'm only wanting a pet for the company and i can't afford to spend alot. Would i be able to buy it with no papers, injections, worming, desexed and so on as i will get her desexed, wormed and needled as soon as she is old enough by the vet in xxxxxx. Could you please get back to me with an answer and a price."

I replied politely to the second email and told this person that I did not have a puppy that fitted the description she gave and I was sorry I was unable to help her.....

Today OH saw her walking along the street with a 7 week old puppy on a lead, so he enquired about the baby....

She said she had picked it up from a neighbouring city yesterday, and that it had cost her heaps of money.....$600.00 !! OH enquired what she got for her money and she very proudly said " a needle and worming" OH enquired weather the puppy was registered......OH NO!!! she said

"it would have been $700 if I wanted it registered"

I know these people ("breeders") are out there everywhere, but they did not even warn her about the dangers of taking the poor little thing onto the streets before it had its next vaccination......

Vent over, all the above posts are so true and sure we need to be improving everything we do all the time, but we are never going to stop this sort of situation, this girl wanted a lovely pet and I hope for her sake that the baby grows into the companion she is dreaming of, but if it has problems it will be

"labradors" that are unsound and get a bad reputation, not this "BREEDER"

Edited October 18, 2009 by mikelli

[MissMonaro]

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

The issue I have with Main/Limited register is this.

As you know Childbride and I always try to "run on" the best two/three babies from our litters for ourselves.

That way we keep the best for our show team or to supply for "show puppy" orders.

All of the other babies are placed on the Limited register - because in our opinion they are not show quality.

It's not that they aren't high quality youngsters - just that they don't meet our high standards/hurdle rates.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

Far too many unsuspecting puppy buyers purchase inferior quality puppies on main register in the mistaken belief that they are of show quality.

And when they fail miseraby in the early Baby / Minor classes these people disappear never to be seen again.

Or - as you suggest MM - they reappear two years later in the litter registration listings.

Thanks for clarifying. All my pet home pups go on limited register ....even the last pup I ran on for the show ring, when I decided nope, not quite happy - I sold her on limited register to a pet home. Any of my older dogs that dont pass testing, although on main register they are desexed before they leave.

And sometimes even the most experienced of us can and do make mistakes.

I had a recent experience with some newbie clients - all they wanted was a Black, Male PET quality puppy.

I had one available and away they went - nice puppy but a bit too overdone for a show puppy IMO.

At 12 months of age these people expressed a desire to show the dog.

As I'd predicted the dog was too strong in head, quite a dominant temperament and not enough backend.

I tried to discourage them on at least 3 different occassions but they wouldn't let up and eventually I gave in.

I signed the document to transfer the dog from Limited to Main register and guess what happened.

The dog has been belted every time it has been entered in an Open show (and deservedly so too).

Now I'm the one copping the "criticism" for selling these people a dog that's not of "show quality".

If these clients had been "up front" with me in the first place I would have ensured they received a "show quality" puppy.

So should I have refused to transfer the dog from Limited onto Main Register?

Should I have simply ignored their requests entirely and stood my ground?

Or did I do the right thing by allowing these people to experience first hand just how hard it is to exhibit a mediocre quality Lab?

Had I not relented the CCCQ would have missed out on yet another membership, as would the LRCQ.

And just maybe these people will get the message, book a show quality youngster in the future and become dedicated long term Lab enthusiasts.

I have a few comments here....

Firstly I dont think you were in the wrong at all. You sold them what they wanted... a pet puppy. I tell ppl straight up that all pet pups are on limited (refer above) and that main register is by negotiation only. I also explain that limited is NOT for showing or breeding, but you are able to compete in obedience etc.

We would upgrade to main if the ppl wanted to show, but only if WE beleive the dog is suitable.

Now for the next thing.....apart from your prefix being attached to the dog that is paraded for all to see - but there are plenty of those "other" purebred breeders that will sell on main register, so in saying that, I think it isnt always a bad thing for people to show a mediocre lab to start with. (note I said mediocre and not downright awful). Because you get to learn on a not so good dog, make some mistakes, and then progress with a better dog etc.

A lot of pressure is put on new ppl when they first step into the ring. I think the first dog we ever seriously showed...was a chocolate lab (quite a few years ago now) and as newbies we were swooped upon and well the ones that were doing well in the show ring didnt hold back on telling me what an idiot I was for showing a choc....blah blah blah...and I'll never get anywhere with it. Of course my thoughts were what difference does it make to you. You didnt breed it, you arent showing it and you'll be getting our "1" point everytime you beat us. Of course, those comments dont do much to booster my 13 yr old daughters confidence very much at that time. But we felt we are learning, then when we get better, we'll get a better dog etc.

On a side note, getting a show quality puppy when you are a newbie, is near on impossible anyway. You just have to go to the threads on this forum to see there are a lot of stipulations with some dogs, others just wont sell a pup to a show newbie either. And the problems with going to a local breeder is that they are going to keep the best 1 or 2 pups for themselves anyway and it means you'd be competing against them as well. (I'd be wrapped to see a good dog winning with my prefix on it though)

I'd be interested to hear other opinions please - I've beaten myself up enough about this particular incident.

And just in closing MM - I understand how difficult it must seem at times trying to get reliable advice.

But there is nothing more frustrating when one's advice is eagerly sought after and it is provided openly and honestly.

And in the very next breath the newbie goes and does the complete bloody opposite - and guess what?

When things do go wrong who do they turn to for a shoulder to cry on?

The original breeder they sought advice from in the first place - sigh.

Reliable advice is definately hard to obtain. I remember you and I engaging in a conversation at a show once for quite a while, and then having to cop a roasting from other ppl in our breed who beleived we were talking about them - (ummm...we were discussing Labradors) - the other side is asking advice from ppl you are constantly competing against - how do you really know they are being genuine helping a newbie? With ppl chirping in your head constantly about this breeder and that breeder etc, it really does do your head in. It is one of the reasons we sit by ourselves at shows and not with lab ppl, as it just gets a bit hard at times.

Mentoring implies a two-way street in my mind.

It suggests to me that a new exhibitor/breeder will commit to supporting an experienced breeder in such a way soas to serve an "apprenticeship".

By that I mean - to help and assist with handling the dogs and "learning the ropes" until a suitable show puppy becomes available.

And it also suggests that the breeder will take a chance on a "newbie" in the hope that they eventually develop the necessary smarts.

Far too many are in it for a quick fix IMO.

And there are also significant numbers of what I describe as "back door bandits" - these are people who won't front up and place an order for a top quality puppy directly - they lurk in the shadows and "aquire" dogs and bitches from particular bloodlines through the "backdoor".

They won't wait, don't want to "waste time" learning - they've got to have something RIGHT NOW.

And in so doing they again end up with something which is mediocre at best and then they wonder why they never make any headway.

Anyway - I've had enough of a vent - time to sit back now and wait for the fallout.

no fallout coming at all, but like you say it is a two way street. You have been in the breed a long time and look at things differently say to someone like myself, not a total newbie, but still relatively new - and although we might see things differently, but I think its good to be able to discuss both sides and get a perspective from another angle.

We've been given some advice...um...lets say "points of view" over the time we have been in labradors.....some we have taken on board, some we havent. But....and I do have to say....when you are burnt a few times by those u thought to trust, then it does become difficult to put your faith in others advice or POV

Edited October 19, 2009 by MissMonaro

[macka]

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

As someone who just recently went through the process of selecting a new lab puppy I can say I have seen this happening in the advertisements here on DOL.

Right now just looking at ads from NSW only, there is a bitch for sale on mains register who "can be transferred to the limited register on request for a greatly reduced price."

There is also an ad for an upcoming litter which states that all puppies will be sold on the main register. They have not even been born yet!

Yet another ad states "The pups are priced at $1000.00 Limited Registration as Pets. Main Registration is available upon negotiation to responsible parties." We can only hope the negotiation only applies to pups suitable for main registration but it doesn't necessarily read that way.

Going back to what was said earlier about breeding for colour, there is also an ad for puppies in which the chocolate puppies are priced $200 higher than the yellow puppies.

These are the ads that NSW lab puppy buyers are looking at right now! You have to wonder what this is going to do to the breed over time.

[Azurite]

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

As someone who just recently went through the process of selecting a new lab puppy I can say I have seen this happening in the advertisements here on DOL.

Right now just looking at ads from NSW only, there is a bitch for sale on mains register who "can be transferred to the limited register on request for a greatly reduced price."

There is also an ad for an upcoming litter which states that all puppies will be sold on the main register. :D They have not even been born yet!

Yet another ad states "The pups are priced at $1000.00 Limited Registration as Pets. Main Registration is available upon negotiation to responsible parties." We can only hope the negotiation only applies to pups suitable for main registration but it doesn't necessarily read that way.

Going back to what was said earlier about breeding for colour, there is also an ad for puppies in which the chocolate puppies are priced $200 higher than the yellow puppies.

These are the ads that NSW lab puppy buyers are looking at right now! You have to wonder what this is going to do to the breed over time.

Then there are also the breeders with "gold" Labradors. A minor quibble perhaps, but makes you wonder if some of these breeders have even bothered to read the breed standard.

[blackdog]

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

As someone who just recently went through the process of selecting a new lab puppy I can say I have seen this happening in the advertisements here on DOL.

Right now just looking at ads from NSW only, there is a bitch for sale on mains register who "can be transferred to the limited register on request for a greatly reduced price."

There is also an ad for an upcoming litter which states that all puppies will be sold on the main register. :D They have not even been born yet!

Yet another ad states "The pups are priced at $1000.00 Limited Registration as Pets. Main Registration is available upon negotiation to responsible parties." We can only hope the negotiation only applies to pups suitable for main registration but it doesn't necessarily read that way.

Going back to what was said earlier about breeding for colour, there is also an ad for puppies in which the chocolate puppies are priced $200 higher than the yellow puppies.

These are the ads that NSW lab puppy buyers are looking at right now! You have to wonder what this is going to do to the breed over time.

Absolutely correct Macka - happens in every State and Territory right around Australia.

Are these individual "breeders" breaking any Controlling Body rule - often times not.

There are no rules which dictate that breeders must be open and honest in their dealings with puppy buyers.

Similarly - there are no written rules that guard against inexperience, or misinterpretation or just plain downright stupidity.

Nor are there any rules (or training programmes) which teaches the novice how to choose & assess the quality of individual puppies.

All of that comes with skill and experience and an intimate understanding of bloodlines and the breed itself.

Bring on an ANKC endorsed, Sate Controlled Breeder Accreditation scheme IMO.

Picture a system that "appraises" the skill of individual breeders based on:

- years of experience

- customer feedback

- level of visible hereditary defect testing

- performance of dogs bred in chosen fields of endeavour.

Picture a system that allocates a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platnum status to individual breeders.

Picture a system that requires that a beginner must receive endorsement from a Gold/Platnum breeder in a mentoring role.

Only then will the current "minefield" confronting puppy buyers be able to be negotiated with some degree of confidence.

[mikelli]

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

As someone who just recently went through the process of selecting a new lab puppy I can say I have seen this happening in the advertisements here on DOL.

Right now just looking at ads from NSW only, there is a bitch for sale on mains register who "can be transferred to the limited register on request for a greatly reduced price."

There is also an ad for an upcoming litter which states that all puppies will be sold on the main register. :D They have not even been born yet!

Yet another ad states "The pups are priced at $1000.00 Limited Registration as Pets. Main Registration is available upon negotiation to responsible parties." We can only hope the negotiation only applies to pups suitable for main registration but it doesn't necessarily read that way.

Going back to what was said earlier about breeding for colour, there is also an ad for puppies in which the chocolate puppies are priced $200 higher than the yellow puppies.

These are the ads that NSW lab puppy buyers are looking at right now! You have to wonder what this is going to do to the breed over time.

Absolutely correct Macka - happens in every State and Territory right around Australia.

Are these individual "breeders" breaking any Controlling Body rule - often times not.

There are no rules which dictate that breeders must be open and honest in their dealings with puppy buyers.

Similarly - there are no written rules that guard against inexperience, or misinterpretation or just plain downright stupidity.

Nor are there any rules (or training programmes) which teaches the novice how to choose & assess the quality of individual puppies.

All of that comes with skill and experience and an intimate understanding of bloodlines and the breed itself.

Bring on an ANKC endorsed, Sate Controlled Breeder Accreditation scheme IMO.

Picture a system that "appraises" the skill of individual breeders based on:

- years of experience

- customer feedback

- level of visible hereditary defect testing

- performance of dogs bred in chosen fields of endeavour.

Picture a system that allocates a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platnum status to individual breeders.

Picture a system that requires that a beginner must receive endorsement from a Gold/Platnum breeder in a mentoring role.

Only then will the current "minefield" confronting puppy buyers be able to be negotiated with some degree of confidence.

Some form of accreditation scheme is long overdue, I think a lot of the problem with some beginning breeders is just plain ignorance of the facts. I am all for mentoring new breeders, I myself was very fortunate to have a long standing breeder as my mentor and I still rely on her advice and knowledge. I am forever grateful that I was lucky enough to be taken under her wing....this person is now one of my dearest friends.....that we could all be so lucky....

Macka, my guess would be that those yellow puppies could possibly have chocolate points hence the smaller price tag.....quite possible in a chocolate/yellow

litter.....

[Joan of Arc]

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

As someone who just recently went through the process of selecting a new lab puppy I can say I have seen this happening in the advertisements here on DOL.

Right now just looking at ads from NSW only, there is a bitch for sale on mains register who "can be transferred to the limited register on request for a greatly reduced price."

There is also an ad for an upcoming litter which states that all puppies will be sold on the main register. They have not even been born yet!

Yet another ad states "The pups are priced at $1000.00 Limited Registration as Pets. Main Registration is available upon negotiation to responsible parties." We can only hope the negotiation only applies to pups suitable for main registration but it doesn't necessarily read that way.

Going back to what was said earlier about breeding for colour, there is also an ad for puppies in which the chocolate puppies are priced $200 higher than the yellow puppies.

These are the ads that NSW lab puppy buyers are looking at right now! You have to wonder what this is going to do to the breed over time.

Absolutely correct Macka - happens in every State and Territory right around Australia.

Are these individual "breeders" breaking any Controlling Body rule - often times not.

There are no rules which dictate that breeders must be open and honest in their dealings with puppy buyers.

Similarly - there are no written rules that guard against inexperience, or misinterpretation or just plain downright stupidity.

Nor are there any rules (or training programmes) which teaches the novice how to choose & assess the quality of individual puppies.

All of that comes with skill and experience and an intimate understanding of bloodlines and the breed itself.

Bring on an ANKC endorsed, Sate Controlled Breeder Accreditation scheme IMO.

Picture a system that "appraises" the skill of individual breeders based on:

- years of experience

- customer feedback

- level of visible hereditary defect testing

- performance of dogs bred in chosen fields of endeavour.

Picture a system that allocates a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platnum status to individual breeders.

Picture a system that requires that a beginner must receive endorsement from a Gold/Platnum breeder in a mentoring role.

Only then will the current "minefield" confronting puppy buyers be able to be negotiated with some degree of confidence.

Some form of accreditation scheme is long overdue, I think a lot of the problem with some beginning breeders is just plain ignorance of the facts. I am all for mentoring new breeders, I myself was very fortunate to have a long standing breeder as my mentor and I still rely on her advice and knowledge. I am forever grateful that I was lucky enough to be taken under her wing....this person is now one of my dearest friends.....that we could all be so lucky....

Macka, my guess would be that those yellow puppies could possibly have chocolate points hence the smaller price tag.....quite possible in a chocolate/yellow

litter.....

"Gold" Labradors!! One of my pet hates.

Blackdog while I absolutely agree with you 100%, a hierarchial system such as you suggest would be ideal, give breeders something to strive for etc. However, human nature being such as it is, even that system would be open to corruption. There is no absolute answer.

But nevertheless, bring it on.

[macka]

Macka, my guess would be that those yellow puppies could possibly have chocolate points hence the smaller price tag.....quite possible in a chocolate/yellow

litter.....

Ah ok, that makes some sense at least.