Sin Binning - Does It Work?

[JulesP]

Got to say that I am not a fan either. Not for during training. I just don't think that the dog understands that it is being sin binned. If the dog is being super hyper then it would give them a chance to calm down, for the adrenalin to lower. But I wouldn't use it if my dog just wasn't working how I would like. I would prefer to finish the training on a good note by asking for something easy so that I can have a party with the dog and then put it away.

At home if the dog was in the house and being really silly then I would toss it out. But that would be tossing out from the pack and that I think they would understand, as being tossed out from the pack is bad. Being walked to the car and put in a comfy crate isn't such a bad thing.

[Sardog]

I agree with Cesar,that time out is useless for serious issues.He is clear on that point,it is just individuals who miss the point. Tony

Well said Tonymc ;)

[Erny]

If so he should be clear about that because he has a responsibility, given his incredible access to the hearts and minds of dog people, to be precise.

Perhaps he was but some missed the point? That's not always the fault of the speaker. I don't remember him saying anything about time-outs at all (and I haven't watched his DVD's) so I have based my comments on what was represented in the OP. Was context taken into account? That's why I have suggested it is possible he was referring to the more serious and ingrained issues. Which is pretty much exactly the topic of his seminar/workshops and other educational material.

This is actually a frustration I have with a lot of training discussion. If you look at many of the threads here, people often come in and say "well, that won't work with hard core case X!". Maybe not, but so what?

Don't really understand what you're getting at here. ;)

I know pet dog training isn't glamorous, but if mild unsexy techniques work to keep those dogs from becoming hard core problems and/or to keep them out of the pound, then they work in my book. Not everyone is training BYB GSDs or pitties.

Nor this .

Edited June 28, 2009 by Erny

[Vickie]

Sorry but I have to agree with Milan on this, Dogs dont really understand the concept of time out.

If you are not in the mood to deal with the situation then remove the dog until you are. This also allows the dog time to settle down and when you settle down you are better equiped to cope.

One of the biggest problems with animal competitions is that we expect the dog to work to our schedule, he might not be in the best mood when his alloted time for the comp is up. If the dog is a bit off colour or distracted we have to accept the situation and work with him not push him more.

When we train we must remove our personal emotions and work to the ability of the animal. We have to observe and accept the stage the dog is at that given moment. Always be prepared to wait and then you find that the animal become more receptive to you as you project patience and confidence.

If you have an over enthusiastic dog on the agility course it may also be that you are projecting the wrong attitude and energy, hence not keeping the dog focused on the work at hand. The fact that the next time you brought the dog out and he does well doesnt mean he understood the punishment, it is just a coincidence. Perhaps this time both of you were in a better frame of mind to work.

I could not disagree more. The technique of removing a dog from an agility course for an incorrect behaviour (that is trained, and I mean really trained to the point where it is hard to get them to fail in training) is used successfully by the top handlers all over the world...no coincidence, mood or attitude about it. For dogs who are highly driven (which BTW does not mean out of control) on course, it is without a doubt the most powerful tool we have as trainers to consistently get the behaviour we want in the ring. It works & rather than making the dogs unhappy, it tends to make them happier in the long run as all confusion about what is required disappears.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Vickie

[alpha bet]

I could not disagree more. The technique of removing a dog from an agility course for an incorrect behaviour (that is trained, and I mean really trained to the point where it is hard to get them to fail in training) is used successfully by the top handlers all over the world...no coincidence, mood or attitude about it.

Just to clarify Vicki,

1. are you saying that you can train a dog to a point he doesnt make mistakes,

2. and you cant really mean that the handler's mood or attitude doesn't reflect on the way the dog will work on a given occassion.

1. Personally I dont mind if the animal gets it wrong sometimes, after all I make mistakes to, so do my kids and friends.

2. I have been judging horse comps for years and see many riders who work beautifully until the hit the ring and then their nerves kick in and the animal misses cues. Horses and dogs respond differently to our moods. Nerves can be such a killer for some competitors.

[Vickie]

Just to clarify Vicki,

1. are you saying that you can train a dog to a point he doesnt make mistakes,

no I am not saying that at all. I am not talking about generally having a bad run, we all do that, dogs & handlers. I am talking about specific behaviours & yes, I think you can train them to a point where they have complete understanding of what is required & they do not make mistakes.

Example - start line. High drive dog has been trained (and proofed) to stay at the startline in training until they hear the word "Go". They are 100% reliable in training, nothing you can do or say other than that word will make them move. They start trialling and all goes well for a while until one day they are so keen that they start to move as you raise your hand to signal the first jump. You are just about to say go anyway, so you let them go. The next trial they know that when you raise your arm you are about to say go & it's OK for them to go then. It's all downhill from there. The dog is still maintaining 100% stays in training, but it has learnt that it is OK to leave a bit early in a trial & it gets earlier & earlier. For a dog that is desperate to get on course, they will do whatever they think they can get away with to get there. Not allowing this type of dog to do the course is IMO the best way to get the startline back again & yes, I think you can get it back 100% if you are consistent. I can think of a number of examples who are living proof of this.

I just went through this method with my experienced dog for 2o2o contacts, it is not a coincidence that she now holds her position until released in a trial. For the last 3 years she has held them in training, but has learnt that she did not need to in a trial. She has a clear understanding of what I require, but knew that I would not enforce it in the ring...until now. It took very little time for her to learn that she needs to hold the position until I release her if she wishes to continue the course. This has nothing to do with my mood, she is a smart dog who is more motivated by the course than any external reward I give her. Give her an inch & she will take a mile. I am not beating her with a stick, I am simply taking away the thing she wants most until I get what I want and she is happier for it as I have removed any confusion in her mind about what is required. I think dogs much prefer when things are black & white.

2. and you cant really mean that the handler's mood or attitude doesn't reflect on the way the dog will work on a given occassion.

Of course our moods impact on our dogs. Just ask anyone how hard it is to get that last pass for a much awaited title.

I think generally speaking, the less experience you & the dog have, the more this will come into play, However...I do think you can reach a point in training where minor variations in your mood are just another distraction that the dog is proofed to work through. If my mood or attitude was severe enough to affect my dog significantly in a run, I would simply choose not to run.

I think this is probably gone off topic as removing a dog from the course in a competition is not really the same as sinbinning for bad behaviour. I am happy to discuss it further in another thread though

Edited June 28, 2009 by Vickie

[corvus]

This is actually a frustration I have with a lot of training discussion. If you look at many of the threads here, people often come in and say "well, that won't work with hard core case X!". Maybe not, but so what?

Don't really understand what you're getting at here.

If I understand Anita correctly, she's talking about the rubbish you get from some people who don't want to admit that a particular method works in the majority of cases because it's not what they like to do. And that goes equally for correction based and positive training. Everyone believes their method is the best one, but I think what Anita is getting at is that something that works for normal pet dogs is something that works for the vast majority of dogs and if it doesn't work for hardcore dogs, then who cares, because those dogs are best left to professionals anyway. My sentiments exactly. I like talking about hardcore cases because I think of those sorts of dogs as wild animals and that's where my expertise lies, but you could say "this method doesn't work on this kind of dog" for every method there is. It seems sensible to me to concentrate on typical pet dogs in these generalised discussions of methods, rather than the ones it might not work with.

Incidentally, I'll just repeat that I did have a marker word with Penny when I was sin-binning her and I think that she knew what the consequences would be, she just couldn't control herself. I've seen her trying her darndest not to bark when I've told her to be quiet and it's pretty funny. She does everything but bark, but if time stretches and her excitement/frustration is building and building, eventually she will bark even when she knows I'm going to put her in a sit and we'll wait a painfully long time (3 seconds) of quiet before we start moving again. Some behaviour is just hard for a particular dog to regulate, and in those cases I think that sin-binning probably won't work. Kivi doesn't get sin-binned, but sometimes he gets shut out of the room he wants to be in and he's very good at figuring out what he needs to do to stay in the fun room. I think that it would work for him. Unless I was trying to teach him not to whine. I think he'd have trouble controlling that.

[Diva]

It has worked well for me when I've used it - usually for unwelcome attention seeking behaviours or jealousy-type reactions. Any behaviour where withdrawal of attention and isolation from the pack is the opposite of what they are trying to achieve.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Diva

[poodlefan]

Sorry but I have to agree with Milan on this, Dogs dont really understand the concept of time out.

Could have fooled me.

Many people focussed dogs consider handler attention to be desireable. Remove the attention (which is what you do in a time out) and its clearly an aversive for some dogs. Dogs understand aversives very well.

The fact that such techniques may be used inappropriately or poorly timed does not mean that withdrawing attention doesn't work with some dogs.

I've lost track of the number of people who've advised puppy owners with mouthy pups to do just that. Withdrawing attention from a dog that jumps up.. it's a time out people.

You don't have to haul a dog off to a post or chuck it in crate. And I agree with Vicky.. removing some dogs from obstacles is an effective method of training for quite a few agility handlers.

[Lablover]

I agree with Vicky.. removing some dogs from obstacles is an effective method of training for quite a few agility handlers.

Wouldn't it simply be better to focus the incorrect obstacles.

Dogs learn nothing in a crate, except frustration which can be used to advantage - or not.

I do think sin binning or time out is more suited to us mere humans.

[poodlefan]

I agree with Vicky.. removing some dogs from obstacles is an effective method of training for quite a few agility handlers.

Wouldn't it simply be better to focus the incorrect obstacles.

Dogs learn nothing in a crate, except frustration which can be used to advantage - or not.

I do think sin binning or time out is more suited to us mere humans.

Agility can be self rewarding for a dog Lab Lover. For a dog that doesn't obey handler direction and madly blats around the obstacles, teaching the dog that it gets to do obstacles only when told (or not at all) may involve removing the dog if it doesn't do that.

It works. You don't have to crate a dog to get the message through. You remove it, wait a while and then have another go. It's the removal from the reward that's instructive, not the crating.

Edited June 30, 2009 by poodlefan

[Lablover]

I agree with Vicky.. removing some dogs from obstacles is an effective method of training for quite a few agility handlers.

Wouldn't it simply be better to focus the incorrect obstacles.

Dogs learn nothing in a crate, except frustration which can be used to advantage - or not.

I do think sin binning or time out is more suited to us mere humans.

Agility can be self rewarding for a dog Lab Lover. For a dog that doesn't obey handler direction and madly blats around the obstacles, teaching the dog that it gets to do obstacles only when told (or not at all) may involve removing the dog if it doesn't do that.

It works. You don't have to crate a dog to get the message through. You remove it, wait a while and then have another go. It's the removal from the reward that's instructive, not the crating.

I understand agility can be self rewarding, retrieving also.

How long do you suggest removal (sin bin or time out)? From what I understand 3 minutes is sufficient.

We all agree learners have such poor timing skills.

[Vickie]

I agree with Vicky.. removing some dogs from obstacles is an effective method of training for quite a few agility handlers.

Wouldn't it simply be better to focus the incorrect obstacles.

What do you mean by 'focus the incorrect obstacles' LL?

How long do you suggest removal (sin bin or time out)? From what I understand 3 minutes is sufficient.

I have no time limit as it is a removal from the ring & the opportunity will not be given to have another go. I am basically saying you do it my way or not at all. We may have another run in 5 minutes or not for hours. If it happens to be our last run at a trial then so be it.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Vickie

[poodlefan]

How long do you suggest removal (sin bin or time out)? From what I understand 3 minutes is sufficient.

We all agree learners have such poor timing skills.

If the timeframe to reward a desired behaviour is "within 3 seconds", you'd argue that to apply an aversive would be the same. Personally, I think provided you've regained the dog's focus and it's paying attention, then a few minutes would be more than adequate.

Trials are different. The dog only gets one chance. It may not get another all day.

[Vickie]

Just out of interest, I started this same topic on DST in relation to agility specifically.

http://dogsporttalk.com.au/viewtopic.php?f...9be92144f57d782

It will be interesting to hear people's different views & there are already some good points made.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Vickie

[WildatHeart]

i was thinking though, if the dog is eager and wants to please, and you take it away from that opportunity for reward, then, sin binning might work?

[Cosmolo]

It worked with Cosmo too for agility. She truly knew all the obstacles but would then get so excited she would stop listening as she wanted to do the next obstacle so much. 2 time outs was all it took for significant improvements in reliability.