Sin Binning - Does It Work?

[WildatHeart]

I just watched one of Casers Millans DVD and he made a comment that sin binning does not work. However, one of the trainers from the NDTF said that you can use sin binning as a form of punishment.

Edited June 22, 2009 by WildatHeart

[Erny]

Sin-binning IMO helps with certain behaviours. Much relies on the dog not gaining or perceiving to be gaining any reinforcement for the unwanted behaviour though. And some dogs just don't care much about being sin-binned. So I do believe it has its limitations. But I disagree with any out-right across the board claims that "it doesn't work for any dog anytime".

ETA: I do believe that some people use or advocate the use of "sin-binning" too often when it can easily be seen that it really isn't working anyway.

ETA: I also think sin-binning is a good way of at least getting the dog out of the human's hair when the human has become so exasperated. It gives the human time to calm down and cool off. A hot-under-the-collar human does not equate to good training.

Sorry - a late edit : I also think it depends on the owner's timing and the manner in which they 'bridge' (or if they 'bridge at all) so that the dog has a chance of understanding what it was sin-binned for.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Erny

[MrsD]

I agree with Erny, I think it depends on the dog, some couldnt give a hoot if they were sin-binned, others it would work, plus it will work on some behaviours, but not all. You can't say "It won't work" across the board.

[helen]

I would tend to agree that it doesn't work normally and usually would not do it, but it did work wonders for me once - Bella was going nuts in an agility run, not listening to me and going wild doing the obstacles she wanted. I simply grabed her, put the lead on and lead her straight out of the ring and into the car without a word.

Took her out for her next run and she was perfect

[Keshwar]

Like others have said, depends on dog. Also depends on the situation.

I tend to use sin binning on over stimulated dogs. Basically a time out so they have a chance to calm down and start using their brain again.

Bear.

[Erny]

Like others have said, depends on dog. Also depends on the situation.

I tend to use sin binning on over stimulated dogs. Basically a time out so they have a chance to calm down and start using their brain again.

Bear.

I find in more recent times that more and more people do confuse 'sin-binning' with 'time-out'. No slight to you, Keshwar, but just taking the opportunity to explain my point of view.

'Sin-binning' is meant to be as a punishment for the dog doing something wrong. 'Time-out' is (to me) more the "calm down" trigger and for that I might use something like the dog's crate or something that the dog doesn't consider to be a punishment. In a 'time-out' I might even give the dog a chew item whilst (s)he's in his/her crate. The dog's done nothing wrong per se ..... I just might want the hyper play to settle a bit, before someone ends up in tears.

Not sure if I'm the only one who thinks this anymore.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Erny

[MolassesLass]

Like others have said, depends on dog. Also depends on the situation.

I tend to use sin binning on over stimulated dogs. Basically a time out so they have a chance to calm down and start using their brain again.

Bear.

I find in more recent times that more and more people do confuse 'sin-binning' with 'time-out'. No slight to you, Keshwar, but just taking the opportunity to explain my point of view.

'Sin-binning' is meant to be as a punishment for the dog doing something wrong. 'Time-out' is (to me) more the "calm down" trigger and for that I might use something like the dog's crate or something that the dog doesn't consider to be a punishment. In a 'time-out' I might even give the dog a chew item whilst (s)he's in his/her crate. The dog's done nothing wrong per se ..... I just might want the hyper play to settle a bit, before someone ends up in tears.

Not sure if I'm the only one who thinks this anymore.

To me, if I don't want the dogs to play hyper in the house and they are, then they have done something wrong. Unless you let them sometimes and then not at others but that would then just be poor training IMO.

Time-out and sin-bin is the same thing to me - removing the dog and putting it somewhere where it can't do anything but stop doing what it is doing and calm down.

Edited June 23, 2009 by molasseslass

[Erny]

Time-out and sin-bin is the same thing to me - removing the dog and putting it somewhere where it can't do anything but stop doing what it is doing and calm down.

So you wouldn't use a crate as a 'time-out' to calm down a 'red-cordial' puppy, for instance? Genuine question, given that crates should not be used as a place of punishment. Or conversely, you don't use an exclusionary zone as a punishment? To me there is a vast difference between 'time-out' (ie just settle down a bit) and 'sin-bin' (punishment).

Edited June 23, 2009 by Erny

[voloclydes]

one of mine got sin bined out to outside (he hates it) for trying to kill the smaller dog.

roll on friday for the snippy snippy... operation.

edited to correct a typeo..

Edited June 23, 2009 by clydes

[corvus]

I used to sin-bin Penny when she would snap at Kivi. It actually made it worse. She would come out even more fractious. Eventually, she started cowering every time I came towards her after she had snapped at Kivi. Either it wasn't instant enough a punishment despite a marker, or she couldn't control the impulse anyway, or the sin-bin wasn't as big a punishment as the snapping was a reward. Whatever the case, sin-binning just made her more aggro and I stopped doing it.

The guys at Kivi's daycare use it with great success. They tell me dogs that start things soon stop doing that after a sin-bin. They said it usually only takes one stint in the time out room to convince them to behave. In a situation where there's a lot of other dogs and lots of fun and play going on, I imagine it would be more effective.

[MolassesLass]

Time-out and sin-bin is the same thing to me - removing the dog and putting it somewhere where it can't do anything but stop doing what it is doing and calm down.

So you wouldn't use a crate as a 'time-out' to calm down a 'red-cordial' puppy, for instance? Genuine question, given that crates should not be used as a place of punishment. Or conversely, you don't use an exclusionary zone as a punishment? To me there is a vast difference between 'time-out' (ie just settle down a bit) and 'sin-bin' (punishment).

I tend to put pups outside to burn the energy rather than in a crate.

I do use a crate as punishment where the punishment is removal from the pack and/or activity - which is why I see time-out and sin-bin as the same thing. Whether it be because the dog did something really naughty or just because the dog is a little naughty (being too active for inside) then they are punished with removal from the pack - by crating, being shut in a boring room or outside.

While I know the reasoning behind not using a crate as punishment, I've never found it an issue with the way I do it. I think they view being crated as a negative at any time they would rather be doing something else (like at a trial when it's not their go) and otherwise don't care. Whatever they think is happening, it works for me.

[Vickie]

Like Helen, I will use a form sinbinning in agility if I am not getting a behaviour that my dog is trained in. It works perfectly for my dog. For example if she does not stop until released on a contact, I tell her "you're done!", pick her up & carry her to the crate. The punishment is that she does not get to continue the course. The crating after the run is going to happen anyway & I don't think she sees this as the punishment, just part of life at a trial. Sometimes our runs totally fall apart (my fault) & we do not finish a course, we just do a shorter course but she is still rewarded at the end, so is not a sinbin.

I don't think I really do any other form of sinbinning. If my dogs are being "red-cordial" (I like that one), 90% of the time I will use their energy to train something, or if I am unable to train for whatever reason, they are placed in a drop stay.

I am sure that in many cases the average person does not understand timing or consistency well enough for sin binning to really be effective, so I can see why people would say it doesn't work.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Vickie

[Kavik]

I did sin bin when Kaos was a pup and it was getting too rough between Kaos and Diesel when playing - to give them a chance to calm down. Both crated for a while until they settled. Don't need to do that anymore now Kaos is older.

[CP*]

I agree it depends on the dogs personality and how you use it.

I use it both at home and in training. I have shelties and the greatest reward for them is my attention and affection, so being removed from me, or each other, works effectively - esp in calming them down. Also helps for excessive barking. At agility I use it for my male because he gets very silly sometimes and it helps him focus (put him on the fence or in the car for a short period), but my female just becomes withdrawn so I wont use it on her when training.

And definately its great when I need to calm down.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I am surprised Milan is saying it doesn't work when it does work for those who apply it correctly.

I've got one dog I occasionally sin bin. The others I don't. It works for me, and the reason it works with one and not the others is, as others have said, the personality of the dog. I wouldn't sin bin the others because it would be unfair on one, and the other would welcome the peace and quiet!!

[Erny]

I am surprised Milan is saying it doesn't work when it does work for those who apply it correctly.

Perhaps he is referencing more to dogs with more serious and/or more ingrained behaviour issues (seeing as it is those ones he normally works with)?

[alpha bet]

Sorry but I have to agree with Milan on this, Dogs dont really understand the concept of time out.

If you are not in the mood to deal with the situation then remove the dog until you are. This also allows the dog time to settle down and when you settle down you are better equiped to cope.

One of the biggest problems with animal competitions is that we expect the dog to work to our schedule, he might not be in the best mood when his alloted time for the comp is up. If the dog is a bit off colour or distracted we have to accept the situation and work with him not push him more.

When we train we must remove our personal emotions and work to the ability of the animal. We have to observe and accept the stage the dog is at that given moment. Always be prepared to wait and then you find that the animal become more receptive to you as you project patience and confidence.

If you have an over enthusiastic dog on the agility course it may also be that you are projecting the wrong attitude and energy, hence not keeping the dog focused on the work at hand. The fact that the next time you brought the dog out and he does well doesnt mean he understood the punishment, it is just a coincidence. Perhaps this time both of you were in a better frame of mind to work.

The more you are prepared to wait, the less you have to.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I am surprised Milan is saying it doesn't work when it does work for those who apply it correctly.

Perhaps he is referencing more to dogs with more serious and/or more ingrained behaviour issues (seeing as it is those ones he normally works with)?

If so he should be clear about that because he has a responsibility, given his incredible access to the hearts and minds of dog people, to be precise.

This is actually a frustration I have with a lot of training discussion. If you look at many of the threads here, people often come in and say "well, that won't work with hard core case X!". Maybe not, but so what?

I know pet dog training isn't glamorous, but if mild unsexy techniques work to keep those dogs from becoming hard core problems and/or to keep them out of the pound, then they work in my book. Not everyone is training BYB GSDs or pitties.

[Tonymc]

I agree with Cesar,that time out is useless for serious issues.He is clear on that point,it is just individuals who miss the point. Tony

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Sorry but I have to agree with Milan on this, Dogs don't really understand the concept of time out.

Does a dog need to understand the science of a training technique to be trained by it? Providing your timing is spot on, and a warning signal plus a NRM helps here, the time out is just like any other punishment (providing the dog experiences it the way you think they are experiencing it).