Staffordshire Bull Terrier

[J.H.M]

Legally if my issues are true and factual and first hand then nobody involved with the running of this forum has any worries about me naming the breeder.

Dean

of course this is open to interpretation, and would need to be determined by a court of law so then Troy has to expend more money defending it right?

Sucks you got taken by someone and I feel for you and the pup but I am pretty sure it will create a shitstorm for this site and there are enough of those already.

Start a website say with domain dontbuyblue.com. And put the story in it will show up on google then. Domain names are pretty cheap now days and there is no potential legal dramas for dogzonline, because if it's true and factual you will have nothing to be worried about from a defamatiton point of view right?

Edited May 11, 2011 by Ma Meeshka Mow Skwoz

[Staff]

I am a member of many forums.

Most of these offer a Trader or Vendor feedback area.

This site was one of the tools I used to research from.

If there had been a section devoted to this as with the breed then it may have saved me.

Troy does a fantastic job and should be commended.

He should also try to help try to protect buyers from breeder not doing the right thing out there in the process.

It makes sence to help where he can to improve the breeds of any dog.

By having a section devoted to this with only first hand cases allowed then its an improvement to the cause.

Telling people not to buy blue does nothing to promote and improve the breed.Nor does it promote genuine people who are trying to get it right by following the ethics guideline and making the breed better.

Telling people not to buy from shonky breeders who have no real interest in improving a specific breed is more productive as a whole to breeding in Australia.

If your a genuine breeder with an ethical view then you have nothing to fear.

Neither does Troy from allowing this style of feedback.

Dean

Edited May 11, 2011 by Staff

[Sandra777]

OK - now all my alarm bells are ringing.

There are MANY threads on here about why the blue Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a thoroughly stuffed-up bad idea - yet you state you looked at this site and didn't find any advice that helped you in your search??????

You say these breeders are "well thought of" but by whom? What did the contacts for the various breed clubs tell you when you called? - these contacts are on this website - which you used as a tool to make your decision to buy a blue.

You bought a blue bitch with the thought you would breed. That was your first mistake.

You bought a puppy from someone you didn't think had cared for the dam of the litter very well. That was your second mistake.

Yep, sounds like the breeder isn't very good at all and if I was you I would be going directly to my nearest lawyer to start a suit under whatever consumer laws apply in your state.

Don't involve Troy and this website in your fight until you have a ruling through the courts.

Good luck.

ETA: you say people should be allowed to leave feedback about breeders - should breeders be able to have a right of reply to this feedback? Unproven accusations can do irreparable damage to people's reputations.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Sandra777

[Staff]

your assuming at lot of things.

i did not buy the dog to breed from.

If I choose to let her have a litter. Which may or may not of ever happened. It would be our choice.This choice is now off the table.

If I choose to show her for enjoyment that is my choice. That is off the table.

This was not a last minute purchase made on a whim.

The dog was a replacement for a much loved family pet of 13 years.

There are many happy blue owners.

Many of whom frequent this forum. Many of the breeders out there who are genuinly interested in making it better should be appreciated or highlighted.

In the same way as dodgy ones should be outed.

You have to take things on face value.

If you can not learn from other peoples mistakes then its pointless in having a forum that promotes pure breed dogs.

Not allowing the mistakes to be made over and over is more to the point.

The courts and its outcomes a side issue. Its about awareness.

If you can search this forum and come up with genuine details of bad breeders then your more capable than I am.

Not all people who have issues with blue are saying so from a neutral point of view.I have stood back and watched for quite some time.

The best feedback is from genuine people who have genuine complaints or praise.

If the information is there and visible then you have no excuses if you make an uninformed mistake.

Letting people make the correct decision from other peoples experiences is my point.

[WreckitWhippet]

There have been countless topics on blues on this forum.

If a buyer wants a quality pup/dog, that is true to type, has a great temperament, is sound and healthy, then it's very unlikey they are going to find one that's blue.

Buyer beware..

[Staff]

There have been countless topics on blues on this forum.

If a buyer wants a quality pup/dog, that is true to type, has a great temperament, is sound and healthy, then it's very unlikey they are going to find one that's blue.

Buyer beware..

Thanks ready set.you and sandra have been most informative around the forum.

Buyer beware is pretty broad. That is my point about making buyers aware of circumstances surrounding my initial question.

If you are Good at what you do you have nothing to fear.

Nothing. Your good name will always be protected from one off's by the ratio of good to bad and the explainations or stories that go with them.

People with genuine issues vrs people going about slandering someone for the hell of it are as as see through as glass.

Should we not promote people who have had luck in finding a good Blue.

You can not tell me all Blue's are a right off. They have a place and we need to work on raising there profile and quality.

This goes along way to improve the standard and our system.

It also goes along way to helping others make more informed decisions.

[WreckitWhippet]

The only SBT's that deserve any promotion and should be recommended are those that come from ethical registered breeders. The breeders who strive for type temperament, structure and soundness and colour is not their number one priority.

I'll go and dig up the list of warning signs for buyers.

Edited May 11, 2011 by ReadySetGo

[WreckitWhippet]

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/214397-is-a-blue-stafford-breeder-unethical/page__p__5122668__hl__%2Bblue+%2Bstaffys__fromsearch__1#entry5122668

some things potential buyers can look for. See ads with the following, run a mile

bred specifically for family pets

the entire litter is on the main register

blue to blue mating

claim the pup is a pied when it's simply a black brindle with a white chest and possibly socks

the non blue pups in a litter are heavily discounted (meaning they are sold closer to the going rate for an SBT pup)

"carry the blue genes"

"carry the blue pied gene"

parents are in excess of 20kgs some 25kg's or more and it's promoted as a good thing

"english staffy"

blue makes a perfect show dog

none of the pups are line bred and that's promoted as a plus

when you can clearly see patches of hair missing in puppy pics (or any pics)

when they can't spell "conformation"

generations of blue

big bitch with a massive head

blue has a black nose

when all they can talk about from a potential litter is the perfect colour they might produce

when the majority of what they say about their adult dogs, consists of it's coat colour and "personality"

"has an excellent pedigree" with not a CH, CD, ET or any other title to be seen

big chunky bitch with a head like a boy

[Sandra777]

Should we not promote people who have had luck in finding a good Blue.

I hope this is simply a bad choice of words. LUCK should have nothing to do with finding a good Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Surely finding a good Staffordshire Bull Terrier should have been the first priority - not the colour of it's hair.

You can not tell me all Blue's are a right off. They have a place and we need to work on raising there profile and quality.

Why? Why does an ethical breeder need to expend their time and energy attempting to raise the quality of a colour which does not conform to the breed standard. Nose: BLACK is pretty simple really.

I have bred blues so IMO I am in a better position than many to see both sides of the debate. The blues I bred occurred in litters bred for type temperament and soundness. The blues I bred were sold to pet homes as they did not conform to the breed standard. (Nose: BLACK)

It also goes along way to helping others make more informed decisions.

What would go a long way to helping others make a more informed decision would be the simple knowledge that in Staffordshire Bull Terriers breeding a blue to a blue for multiple generations can not possibly have been done for the betterment of the breed. Anyone truly interested in breeding good dogs will not EVER breed like this given the abysmal quality of the blues available to do this with.

[Staff]

I have read all of this before. not one thing on that list relates to my purchase.

Yet there was still not enough genuine info on the breeder to make me think it was a lost cause.

If feed back on the breeder had been available then it would have been easier not to make a mistake.

You are assuming a lot.Please read the whole thread again. All 8 pages. And all of the other info available on Blue.

Don't read anything inputted from a breader who sells mainstream SBT's

Where have I said any of the above apply to this dog.

Did I say anywhere the dog was bred blue/blue.

And you might catch on to what I and others have said about keeping our mouths shut.

Is it the right thing to do. Does it promote a better dog.Does it improve the breed.Does it help stop bad breeders.

There is no valuable information available to buyers about breeders.good or bad.

This should be available.

True or False?

[Sandra777]

Don't read anything inputted from a breader who sells mainstream SBT's

That will certainly help, ignore advice given by people who attempt to breed (not bread FFS!) dogs which conform to the Breed Standard and who have made a long term commitment to the breed

There is no valuable information available to buyers about breeders.good or bad.

This should be available.

True or False?

There's plenty of info out there about breeders, both good and bad. It's called phoning or visiting breeders, asking sensible well thought out questions, and gauging their answers against your own good common sense and your previously "well researched" knowledge.

Ask for references

Call breed clubs and ask if xyz is a member, how long, how active

Call the Canine Control in the state the breeder resides. Ask if xyz is a member, if they have a registered affix, how long they have been members.

Figure out for yourself which attributes of the breed are most important to you in your new pet and future (possible) breeding bitch and figuring out who breeds these attributes by research and by intelligent questioning of breeders you visit/phone.

I managed to do this pre-internet days when I was merely a young teenager.

[Staff]

Sandra,

Your a breeder. Not a buyer. Your missing the point.

I've asked you to take off your breeders hat and read it from a buyer perspective.

The point is this is a leading Australian forum.

Why in this Current internet savy society would you risk missing valuable info about a breeder. Good or Bad.

People will still be stung after weeks of offline research.

Why would you want to to promote this.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Staff

[WreckitWhippet]

If you want to name breeders, then send Troy a message and see what he says.

[Staff]

If you want to name breeders, then send Troy a message and see what he says.

Thanks RSG.

I don't see why this forum can't have a valuable tool such as feed back section on Breeders.

What Sandra has asked me and others to do is leave there fate in the Hands of info and references supplied by a Breeder.

This sort of research ends up with stories such as mine and others.

Anything that can be done to eliminate these guys are a plus for both buyer and quality breeder.

With the sales of dogs available from o/s and interstate a feed back section for use as a resource is a no brainer in my opinion.

Just because someone checks out with the ANKC does not mean there any bloody good.

Word of Mouth and the internet are far superior ways of getting that info these days about a current or past breeder or a dogs history.

Both Good and Bad.

[Sandra777]

Sandra,

Your a breeder. Not a buyer. Your missing the point.

I am a buyer - I have subsequently bought 2 different breeds to the first breed I bought, as described, pre internet days as a mere young teenager who wasn't taken seriously.

I speak to people virtually every day - people who are confused about where to go and what to do, people who want to know what to ask. I'm not talking about people who have phoned up to ask to buy a puppy from me, I am talking about random people who genuinely don't know what to do (ETA: I am talking all breeds, not just SBT buyers)

All in all I would guess I have more experience with the buyer's perspective than most buyers.

Why in this Current internet savy society would you risk missing valuable info about a breeder. Good or Bad.

People will still be stung after weeks of offline research.

Why would you want to to promote this.

And how will it help having some comments on a forum which can't be verified and could be either taken out of context or could be pure lies?

How does anyone here know what you say about these breeders you want to expose is anything like the truth?

Who is going to verify the information you want to make available to all?

Take them to court, get your verdict then come back with a proven complaint.

I'm 99% sure that if/when you do name these breeders everyone with any knowledge of the breed is going to say -"well I could have told you they were dodgy". Bad breeders are actually pretty widely known amongst those very people you want everyone to ignore - those ethical breeders breeding "mainstream" dogs.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Sandra777

[Troy]

Staff, I understand what you are talking about and in an ideal world, I would love to do what you suggested.

However as Sandra777 stated, there is no way to verify the statements for or against a breeder. If I was a dodgy breeder, I could easily make up numerous internet identities and give myself glowing reviews. On the other hand, if I was a good breeder and had enemies, they could also bring me down with bad reviews.

This would not be like Ebay where the transaction is readily identifable (as it is all done via their system) and both the buyer and seller build up a feedback score. There is no way in the breeder feedback scenario to see what the buyer's reputation is like. The system would be one-sided against the breeder.

You also open up a legal can of worms which from current experience, I do not intend to intentionally expose myself further to. There would be not too many legitimate businesses who would intentionally start a web site where you would be allowed to anonymously give feedback about a person. They would leave themselves open to being sued if there was a statement made that was false and potentally damaging to their reputation. You see a lot of feedback sites about 'businesses' on the internet but under current defamation laws, most larger companies are not able to sue for defamation. It is a different story for people though.

If the current laws were made clear as to the liability of a web site owner of content that they did not personally write, then it would be worth investigating further. Until that time though, it is not an option (for me anyway).

[Staff]

Ok Sandra,

I'll take some well respected breeders word that another breeder is dodgy over a person who has real first hand experiance with first hand dealings with said dodgy dealer.

If the breeder is dodgy lets get them out there in the public domain.

Good breeders can be biased.

Bad breeders can be liars.

Why should a court of law stop a public discussion of a first hand dealing with bad breeders.

If there is first hand proof then why not.

It's not Troys arse on the line its the authors.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Staff

[Troy]

It's not Troys arse on the line its the authors.

It is. Under the current law, I am liable as I am the 'publisher'.

[Staff]

It's not Troys arse on the line its the authors.

It is. Under the current law, I am liable as I am the 'publisher'.

If the author can not verify the facts and you allow the post to remain then yes you could be accountable.

I understand where you are comming from Troy.

But if the story is truth you have nothing to fear.

I'ts a can of worms and that's why I asked in the first place.

If your no good at what you do or offer then it should be the first thing you read.

Anyone mistakenly caught up in a slander campaign is easly protected by Admin.

Anyone who is a shonk gets exposed.

[Camo16]

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/214397-is-a-blue-stafford-breeder-unethical/page__p__5122668__hl__%2Bblue+%2Bstaffys__fromsearch__1#entry5122668

some things potential buyers can look for. See ads with the following, run a mile

bred specifically for family pets

the entire litter is on the main register

blue to blue mating

claim the pup is a pied when it's simply a black brindle with a white chest and possibly socks

the non blue pups in a litter are heavily discounted (meaning they are sold closer to the going rate for an SBT pup)

"carry the blue genes"

"carry the blue pied gene"

parents are in excess of 20kgs some 25kg's or more and it's promoted as a good thing

"english staffy"

blue makes a perfect show dog

none of the pups are line bred and that's promoted as a plus

when you can clearly see patches of hair missing in puppy pics (or any pics)

when they can't spell "conformation"

generations of blue

big bitch with a massive head

blue has a black nose

when all they can talk about from a potential litter is the perfect colour they might produce

when the majority of what they say about their adult dogs, consists of it's coat colour and "personality"

"has an excellent pedigree" with not a CH, CD, ET or any other title to be seen

big chunky bitch with a head like a boy

Why is Dogs Victoria allowing the breeding of blue to blue to continue?

And allowing the inflated price?

Surely as the 'Peak body representing owners and breeders of purebred dogs", they should be monitoring this?

Yes I am one of the many that stupidly did not do my homework in regards to blue staffords. I was purely a buyer, thought I was doing the right thing in buying a 'Registered' Dog. In purchasing a papered dog you assume you don't have to do your homework.