Clyde Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Might be a dumb question, but why are there certain colours that are highly undersirable? Is this just for showing, or does it possibly indicate something else about the dog that pet owners should know? I am interested in answers for this. There seems to be some controversy about certain colours in the breed and paying more for 'rare' colours. From what I have seen the blues don't seem to look as true to type as other colours. Is this the general consensus, or just my own personal taste of what a Stafford should look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I have a question about the dog aggression- what is the best way for someone who wants a reasonably dog social dog to go about finding a Stafford breeder that would have something suitable? Or is it a matter of those seeking a dog social dog selecting another breed? I too have seen many Staffords with separation anxiety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) I have a question about the dog aggression- what is the best way for someone who wants a reasonably dog social dog to go about finding a Stafford breeder that would have something suitable? Or is it a matter of those seeking a dog social dog selecting another breed?I too have seen many Staffords with separation anxiety. Define "reasonably" Cosmolo Most (properly raised!) Staffords are OK with other dogs that are properly raised themselves, but they don't suffer fools gladly and really don't do well with rude unsocialised aggressive dogs getting in their face - problem being that there's a whole world of dogs just like that out there.....especially in dog parks Lots and LOTS of Staffords do agility and flyball where dogs are hyped to the max and off leash - but they are under the control of someone who knows their dog and it's limitations. It's frequently said in Stafford circles that the Stafford won't usually start the fight, but they'll gladly finish it. Edited June 23, 2009 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I was told they were originally bred for rodent control, not bull baiting. Is that true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) I was told they were originally bred for rodent control, not bull baiting. Is that true? No. Staffords were originally bred as fighting dogs. But of course, 'back then' people who were in to blood sports would have been willing to "prove" their dog in any sort of challenge which seemed likely to turn a buck, so there will always be pictures and reports of the same type of dog doing a variety of things. Staffords were used in rat killing competitions, badger baiting, weird "novelty" baiting such as monkeys and no doubt used to control rodents but the origins of the breed are in the dog fighting pit. One of the two dogs used as a blue-print for the original breed standard died after a badger bait (it was still legal) Edited June 23, 2009 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 The other thing about the old "lock jaw" story is that the breed have very powerful massiters (ie jaw muscles), which also gives them their characteristic "smile". The powerful jaw muscles combined with the one-track mind can mean that you have a dog that is hellbent on not letting go. The rat pits were also used for sport after dog fighting and bull and bear baiting became illegal. Whilst it was felt cruel to pit dogs against each other and dogs against bulls and bears (and badgers), nobody spared a thought for the rat which was of course in plentitude in those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I have a question about the dog aggression- what is the best way for someone who wants a reasonably dog social dog to go about finding a Stafford breeder that would have something suitable? Or is it a matter of those seeking a dog social dog selecting another breed?I too have seen many Staffords with separation anxiety. Define "reasonably" Cosmolo Most (properly raised!) Staffords are OK with other dogs that are properly raised themselves, but they don't suffer fools gladly and really don't do well with rude unsocialised aggressive dogs getting in their face - problem being that there's a whole world of dogs just like that out there.....especially in dog parks Lots and LOTS of Staffords do agility and flyball where dogs are hyped to the max and off leash - but they are under the control of someone who knows their dog and it's limitations. It's frequently said in Stafford circles that the Stafford won't usually start the fight, but they'll gladly finish it. I think that people say that is also true of many other terrier breeds, kerry blues, irish terrier, lakeland etc so to be fair to the SBT they are not alone in this I believe and this can extend to other dogs, regardless of their breed, not every dog likes dogs in their personal space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Reasonably social to me and most of the people i come into contact with would mean- not overtly dog aggressive/ not reactive when sees dogs, able to play appropriately with other dogs who are suitably matched and able to happily walk through parks, busy areas etc without issue. Don't have an issue with a dog/ breed that is likely to 'react back' as i think this is different to overt dog aggression. I know some breeders do not exclude dog aggressive dogs from their breeding program which does concern me but i don't know how widespread it is to do this or the real reasons behind it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Reasonably social to me and most of the people i come into contact with would mean- not overtly dog aggressive/ not reactive when sees dogs, able to play appropriately with other dogs who are suitably matched and able to happily walk through parks, busy areas etc without issue. Sounds like any properly socialised well trained dog to me. Not a breed specific trait IMO The bit in bold being the main point! I know some breeders do not exclude dog aggressive dogs from their breeding program which does concern me but i don't know how widespread it is to do this or the real reasons behind it? I don't know of any Stafford breeder who are specifically excluding "dog aggressive" dogs from their breeding programme, but again that depends on your definition of "dog aggressive". "Dog aggressive" in the sense of "out-of-control-in-your-face-I'm-going-to-eat-you-the-second-I see-you" to me is the sign of a dog which has been trained or allowed to behave in that way. "Dog aggressive" in the sense of reacting back as you've put it is a breed trait and a sign of a confident, bold dog. IMO attempting to remove the 'dog reactive' part of the breed's nature is to destroy the breed. They are 'bold fearless and totally reliable' because they *know* they can back their words up. There are stories of the old fighting dogs walking down the street sans leash, causing no problems at all. How true these are who knows (because we weren't there) but recent rescues of pit fighting dogs especially in the USA shows that most of them can be trained to not behave in this way. They would (I have no doubt) still 'react back' as you say if another dog got in their face. That said: there are certain Staffords which simply don't like certain other Staffords and this makes the Stafford ring a rowdy place at times. These dogs are fine to me. You see it in other rings/breeds too - the worst fight I've ever seen at a dog show was between three male toy dogs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Reasonably social to me and most of the people i come into contact with would mean- not overtly dog aggressive/ not reactive when sees dogs, able to play appropriately with other dogs who are suitably matched and able to happily walk through parks, busy areas etc without issue. Don't have an issue with a dog/ breed that is likely to 'react back' as i think this is different to overt dog aggression. I know some breeders do not exclude dog aggressive dogs from their breeding program which does concern me but i don't know how widespread it is to do this or the real reasons behind it? That to me would not be an unrealistic expectation of the majority of Staffords. I personally expect that my dogs will walk nicely on a loose leash, sit or stand quietly while other dogs are around and are able to play appropriately with other known dogs. Many people think that "social" is a free for all at the leash free with any dog that comes along. I wouldn't expect my Staffords not to react if placed in that situation. I think that training plays an enormous part in a "social" Staffords life, they must have a recall and should be taught to "leave" or "leave it" and come away from intense situations and over exhuberant play. There are some however that would never live up to any of the expectations above, they are not for the novice owner. Again I cannot stress enough that puppy buyers seek out an ethical registered breeder, who is honest about the dogs in their kennel and what they know about the dogs that have gone before them. As for breeders not excluding "dog aggressive" animals from their breeding program, I think that's a personal choice , some value the "fire" and do not see it as an issue if properly managed. I think people also see the grumbling and front that many Staffords put on and mistake that for "aggression", when it could in many cases be a reaction. Fire in a Stafford does not mean that the dog is not trainable and able to be responsibly managed. I prefer a lively animal, with a bit of spunk about it and you can certainly have this and not have a dog that swings off the end of a lead. I would be far more wary of purchasing a puppy that comes from timid parents, shy parents, fear aggressive or submissive, such dogs are unpredictable and are a disaster in the making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Thankyou for such quick and informative replies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I would be far more wary of purchasing a puppy that comes from timid parents, shy parents, fear aggressive or submissive, such dogs are unpredictable and are a disaster in the making. Good point PPS. It is getting quite frightening the number of adult Staffords which are scared to death if a gazebo wall flaps or someone drops a crate on the ground three rings away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambaqui Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I hope this question won't sound dumb or something, but over the years when I was a young kid and even still up to today, I have seen people that struggled to train SBT or similiar breed. (A couple months ago I saw one where the owner couldn't restrain their dogs as it was pulling with such force, and one in puppy socialization where it was so dominant that it oftenly pin the other pups to the ground and unfortunately my GSP is very wary around these breed ) So my question is, should any new owner who decides to buy a SBT, should they consider training this breed at an early age, or what is the best way to train this breed that they do not become such domineering dogs in public? (Hope my question is valid and ok!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I hope this question won't sound dumb or something, but over the years when I was a young kid and even still up to today, I have seen people that struggled to train SBT or similiar breed. (A couple months ago I saw one where the owner couldn't restrain their dogs as it was pulling with such force, and one in puppy socialization where it was so dominant that it oftenly pin the other pups to the ground and unfortunately my GSP is very wary around these breed ) So my question is, should any new owner who decides to buy a SBT, should they consider training this breed at an early age, or what is the best way to train this breed that they do not become such domineering dogs in public? (Hope my question is valid and ok!) IMO all dogs should be trained from an early age. If they're not it is the fault of the owner (and breeder for not giving good advice and help in some cases) - it's nothing to do with the breed. The best way to train a Stafford is with consistent and constant positive reinforcement. They are very amenable to training when the right methods are used, and become miserable little shadows when the wrong method is used Yes a lot of Staffords love to pull - but so do lots of other breeds that are considerably stronger and weigh a LOT more than a Stafford! I have 2 bitches who will walk beautifully on leash and one that pulls like a demented demon unless she is walked on a choke chain or with one leg over her leash. Staffords are so enthusiastic about everything they do that when they are puppies they invariably pull, people find it cute for some reason and it becomes a habit, then the dog grows up, gets a bit stronger and some people just find it easier to let the dog pull, because teaching it not to pull seems so hard. Again, this is true with all breeds and not just Staffords. "Dominant" puppies in puppy preschool.... ALL pups play these dominance type games so again, not really breed related. The thing is that Stafford puppies are small in stature but they are pretty heavy for their height and also tend to be determined little sods. They might well weigh twice as much as say a fluffy DD of the same height, which makes the DD an easy target (as it would in ANY puppy's mind!) and they could weigh almost as much as a GSP puppy of a similar age which is twice as tall and four times as unstable on it's legs, so again - easy target! It is up to the owner and the person running the preschool to sort out the puppies into suitable groups and to supervise this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Thankyou for such quick and informative replies Yep. Ditto that. Really interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 What advice would you give someone who decides to adopt an adult Stafford from a shelter or rescue? What is your opinion on adopting an adult Stafford into a home that already has an adult dog that is a Stafford or a Staffy x? Based on the traits inherent in Staffords would you suggest only adopting an adult from an organisation that has fostered the dog and is thus able to offer much more information, in terms of the qualities and personality of the individual dog? Absolutely from an ethical rescue that fosters and has experienced foster carers. I've seen first hand some of the disaterous results of rescues that have not been in foster care and have not been properly assessed. There is no reason why older Staffords cannot be rehomed with careful consideration and assessment. They can also be rehomed successfully into homes with an existing pet. I think it is very important given that potential adoptees are looking for a family pet, that the animal under consideration has been assessed in a home and yard environment. Fitting in with exisiting pets aside, it's imperative to know if they are escape artists, machines of mass destruction, how they handle visitors coming into the home, how they react with small children & strange men, trips in the car and every day situations that they can reasonably expect to encounter. They also require some time for their true natures and quirks to show. There have been plenty of dogs returned to care as they are not suitable and are not as described by rescues. Yes, all dogs take some time to settle in and there will be some for whatever reason do not fit in. I question how a rescue can suggest and recommend a Stafford for rehoming if they have no idea what the dog is really like , outside of a kennel environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Really stupid question alert - if staffords werent initially bred for rodent control, why are they classified as a terrier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Really stupid question alert - if staffords werent initially bred for rodent control, why are they classified as a terrier? Because the initial crosses that created them were a "bull and terrier", ie a bull breed such as a mastiff and a terrier of some description to refine the bull breed down somewhat and make it more athletic and agile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Thanks Ellz. After i asked the stupid question I went and googled it. Lovely lovely breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 Tisn't a stoopid question at all. It's a very relevant one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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