Ruby Update

[tomas]

Tomas, all my dogs have been BARF fed for a number of years, including Ruby. No grains, no cereals, no artifical anything, just raw whole foods. Until I added a few 'naughty' foods including the occasional bit of dog roll as a treat. Ruby's always been an itchy dog but it was always worse over the summer months so we put it down to seasonal allergic response (as did our vets). We didn't suspect food seriously until she reacted to dog roll AND raw chicken within a few days of each other (the dog roll was about 20 grams so not much, the chicken was part of her 'usual' dinner of wings), the first reaction was vomiting then secondary came the hives/welts within about 4 hours. On that basis, our vet recommended we eliminate everything except fish and sweet potato as those two ingredients (for her) are relatively novel and therefore less likely to cause a reaction. She has done beautifully on fish/sweet potato...I've given her raw heads, cooked fillets, canned sardines/mackeral/salmon, raw sweet potato, dried sweet potato and mashed/cooked sweet potato over the first stage of the trial - I noted a reaction to all of the canned fish which settled within 24 hours. She settled sufficiently for us to pinpoint at least part of the problem as food but she still has contact allergies as well. We know this because of her paws (still red and inflamed somewhat) and muzzle (where she likes to 'dive bomb' the ground, as do many itchy dogs) but we haven't had specific allergy tests done (the lack of specialists here is the crux of the issue). Since the first stage of the diet ended, I've used my vet's guidelines to introduce one ingredient per week. We discussed at length the types of foods to re-introduce and we both felt that lamb and beef products would be a long way down the list, but yoghurt, canola or fish oil, eggs and some vegetables (one at a time) would be a better choice. Yoghurt was chosen for its fat content and its probiotics (Dr Billinghurst actually recommends yoghurt whereas the prey model doesn't and Ruby has always loved plain full fat yoghurt). Eggs were chosen for protein as a single protein source over long periods is undesirable unless there is no other option.

Unfortunately she's reacted to eggs, possibly to yoghurt (but a mild reaction, not a full-blown one), defintely mild reaction to canned fish products (no idea why) and not yet to canola oil. If she continues to improve on canola, I'll keep it in the diet for now. Next on the list was going to be lamb hearts but I'm going to try to source a different species if possible. I'm wary of lamb and beef...given that so many allergy dogs react to these very common protein sources and given that Ruby (fed raw chicken all her life) has reacted so strongly to chicken twice now. If I can get roo hearts I'll trial them but if not, I think I'll aim for broccoli (the iron and B vitamins are essential given the limited protein sources she's eating).

I've learnt quite a bit more about dog's nutrition and allergic response since we started this trial and I just want her back on a completely raw diet but I know it will take considerable time for us to work through these issues.

Please keep the feedback/suggestions/ideas/experiences coming!

I see your point!

Though I must admit,when I switched Ollie (he was a brother to one of my other dogs who I took in when his owners could not cope and were going to put him down) he went through awful diarrhea and vomit epsiodes for a few weeks on and off) Like you I suspected triggers,hence the testing we did and was told as I said it WAS everything.

I know I went against what they said and I just wanted to relay to you that what I did worked,maybe it was a fluke...who knows.

But I started him on chicken,skin off,like breast with the bone in and slowly added stuff,everytime he had a epsiode we went back to what DID work...

It did take a while before he never reacted to a food,but we got there. I believe you will get there but it might be a long process. GOOD LUCK!

I DO hope for Ruby and YOU ,that you can work this out

One last thing Ollie licked his paws and his tummy was red and raw at times ,also he scratched alot for maybe a good 8 months after the switch,so just be patient. You are on the right track.

Tomas.

[sas]

I feel your pain Lilly, I don't really have any suggestions, I'm sure you've tried them all as have many of us allergic dog owners.

The only thing that has worked for us so far has been Homeopathic treatment.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

wow will her digestive system be OK with that much oil??? wont she just run through?!

if she's thin have you tried nutragel with her or divetelact?

as for allergies floor cleaners and what is on your clothing will not help! Yes we discovered that Diesel became itchy with a really fragrant washing powder when I did a load and he sat on one of the items.

so start removing all chemicals from the home too *sigh* its not easy is it

I thought about the chemicals too - I wash their bedding in Bio Zet powder but use it sparingly for that reason and I line dry their things then give them a good shake (the shake probably does nothing other than loosen whatever dog hair is left over!). I also use a carb soda based floor cleaner but I'm sure it's got plenty of chemicals in it so am on the hunt for something more "green" - I've got a book somewhere to look up home made cleaning products. It's a bloody pain trying to rule things in or out and to manage everything.

Ruby's not thin - yet. She was a tad overweight before we started the food trial and I know I'm over-reacting because our vet tells me she's still a good weight and in my brain, I know he's right. But as she matured she got a bit more chunky and we got used to that build...to see her now (as a dog should look LOL) with just enough cover over her rib cage is...scary!

I think canola oil has softened her stools a bit but she's still going twice daily and they're still consistent - I'm also not feeding it every meal but every third/fourth meal. I started with 1/4 cup but that was a bit much so she's getting two tablespoons per meal instead.

We'll just keep on keeping on...we're getting answers even if they're not the ones we're hoping for.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I've had a small bit of success this week!

I'm trialling Lard this week...yep, LARD. Vet suggested it to help stall the weight loss and - - - so far, so good. She's scratching a little but I think she needs another mange shot as she's mostly scratching her head and the hair loss has started again. :D

So lard is okay...which is a blended animal fat (solidified) so next up will be beef mince. YAY!

I hope the beef mince won't cause a reaction...

[OSoSwift]

Good luck, having a dog with multpile allergies, food and environmetal - it can be really really hard on them and you.

Got my fingers crossed for you both!

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I tried beef ribs last night...just one portion. And Ruby's had a fairly strong reaction. So beef might be off the menu too.

I hope I can find another protein source or two. She can't stay on fish exclusively as the fat content isn't appropriate over the long term.

I'll see how she goes and if the itching stops, I'll try again mid-week. A second reaction would prove it's not safe.

[koolietas]

Good luck with Ruby's elim diet lilysmum

3 weeks ago I started my sheltie on one also...it's tough! He has eaten rabbit & sweet potato exclusively in that time - and only a little improvement in his skin so far.

I've never fed beef - and am not willing to try it at this stage - as I have been advised that beef is the most allergic protein for dogs.

I have found a butcher who sells wild hares, so am considering trialling that as he's never had hare before (but did have rabbit a couple of times a few years ago).

Looking forward to hearing your progress

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Really beef, chicken and lamb are all very common culprits in food allergies. I was hoping that because she tolerates the lard she might also tolerate the muscle meat and bone.

Next protein source I'll trial will probably be roo. If I can get it.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Really beef, chicken and lamb are all very common culprits in food allergies. I was hoping that because she tolerates the lard she might also tolerate the muscle meat and bone.

Next protein source I'll trial will probably be roo. If I can get it.

I hope yours is a bit more successful than mine, koolietas.

[Erny]

Really beef, chicken and lamb are all very common culprits in food allergies. I was hoping that because she tolerates the lard she might also tolerate the muscle meat and bone.

Next protein source I'll trial will probably be roo. If I can get it.

I hope yours is a bit more successful than mine, koolietas. :D

Have you tried the VAN "Allerblend"?

[koolietas]

Really beef, chicken and lamb are all very common culprits in food allergies. I was hoping that because she tolerates the lard she might also tolerate the muscle meat and bone.

Next protein source I'll trial will probably be roo. If I can get it.

I hope yours is a bit more successful than mine, koolietas.

Thanks lillysmum My boy's is a lot less severe than Ruby's. I think you're doing a fabulous job - it's a tough task, especially when you're out walking - other dog owners want to give them treats, and of course, they can always find food on the footpaths to scavenge etc (well at least my boy does!)

I took my boy to the vet last night, and although he has improved, he will need to stay on the rabbit/sweet potato diet for at least another 3 weeks. The vet suggested to try turkey next (he loves turkey) as that apparently is a low allergen food.

I hope you can find the roo - we always have plenty of roo here in Tas, but I know that what can be easy to source in one place can be impossible to source in others.

Good luck!

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I'm tossing up with turkey...because she's had a very strong reaction to chicken, I'm a bit wary of another poultry source. But roo is so hard to get here as it's either frozen mince (pet grade) or defrosted steaks (human grade). Mince is a bit dodgy as you don't know what the ingredients are and the roo steak is very expensive here.

Erny, I'm only able to introduce one thing at a time, so blends of anything are out: I've also thought about giving her a BARF patty to see if she reacts but it's sort of a waste of time because if there is a reaction, I won't know what it's from. I would also like to get her back on the herbals (McDowall) but can't as yet for the same reason.

I just want her healthy - she's not happy any more which is breaking my heart.

Also, it looks like the mange is taking over again, so another shot for that this week.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

We've had a small success! :D

Trialled a turkey neck for her dinner last night and - so far at least - no significant reaction! :D

All being well, she'll have turkey neck again tomorrow night...I plan to alternate between fish and turkey for the rest of the week. Next food is either pork rib OR a vegetable. Perhaps broccoli...or silver beet. She must be so sick of sweet potato. ;)

Edited August 2, 2009 by lillysmum

[SearchJane]

Doing this with the supervision of my vet so he's definitely guiding me through the process.

Unfortunately Ruby doesn't just react to food (if only it was that simple!), as she has contact allergies year-round too.

Because she's been on fish and sweet potato for so long, she's lost a considerable amount of weight so I'm desperate to get some weight back on her. Hence introducing the canola oil today. She's actually not scratching now...which is a good sign.

The canned fish I've given her is packed in spring water or oil depending on the brand and type of fish involved. I don't think it makes much difference as she seems to be reacting to all canned fish...

One of my Vizsla had the worst contact and food allergies going! Got so bad he was raw everywhere and would rub his face on concrete till he bled! Did those injected prick tests and he was allergic to beef ,chicken, every green thing known to man,dust mites,household ingredients in cleaners you name it. He was on prednisone and anti-biotics alot!

I went prey model raw.

80% meat,10 % edible bone and 10 % offal of which 5 % is liver.

After detox which took about a month,your dog may be going through detox symptoms when she is scratching,have you thought of that? He is now100 % fine,can run through grass and eats anything he is given without a reaction!

I just thought to hell with it and on advice from other raw feeders I started him on chicken (raw-they said unlikely he would react as the grains were the problem in his dry,not raw),like breast bone in,which is still too much bone but an o.k place to start. Did a week on that and added some gizzards and chicken liver,fine on that so went to beef then some beef heart and some beef liver over the next week to 10 days with chicken meals in between,then lamb,then pork,then rabbit etc etc. All this took about 6 weeks ,he scratched most of this but it got less.

I bathed him in diluted Gold Listerine to keep him from reinfecting his skin...

Anyway 6 months down the track I have a prefect dog who can run through long grass eat anything and looks amazing. Apart from his grey muzzle,he is 8,he has the body of a 3 year old and the energy level of one too!

If she was my dog I would give it a shot,can't be any worse than she is now. I know my boy was a mess for the first few weeks and then it just got gradually less...

Oh and adding yoghurt and veggies is a no no in my book. They are sugar and dogs don't need sugar..just like a horse can eat bark but it's not exatcly meant to is it. But if that's all on offer they would eat it so as not to starve.

So try 80% meat,10 % edible bone and 10% offal of which 5 % is liver.

So in conclusion based on a dermatologists findings my boy WAS highly allergic to everything but I went through things step by step and alot of his scratching after going prey model was detox as the allergens escaped his body. All you can do in that situation is try to ease them through it.

Oh and TRY not to freak out,my dog was red raw everywhere and had scabs and bled after scratching,so it can work!

I wish you the best of luck.

I've got an allergic staffy who's on camel & sweet potato and is currently on sequential challenges (we've just tried an hypo-allergenic dry food which he reacted to so the next thing to try is corn to totally rule that out as I'm pretty sure that's the culprit). I agree about waiting until any reaction disappears and leaving a good gap before the next challenge. We're under an animal dermatologist, rather than the vet.

What quantities are you talking about (the weight of your dog & the weight of the food would be good). I'd like to try a no vege diet as I'm sick of cooking sweet potatoes!

Thanks

[koolietas]

We've had a small success!

Trialled a turkey neck for her dinner last night and - so far at least - no significant reaction!

All being well, she'll have turkey neck again tomorrow night...I plan to alternate between fish and turkey for the rest of the week. Next food is either pork rib OR a vegetable. Perhaps broccoli...or silver beet. She must be so sick of sweet potato. :D

That's great lillysmum! Hope it continues to go well for Ruby :D

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

We've had a small success!

Trialled a turkey neck for her dinner last night and - so far at least - no significant reaction!

All being well, she'll have turkey neck again tomorrow night...I plan to alternate between fish and turkey for the rest of the week. Next food is either pork rib OR a vegetable. Perhaps broccoli...or silver beet. She must be so sick of sweet potato. :D

That's great lillysmum! Hope it continues to go well for Ruby :D

Me too. It's been a very long road so far and it's not over by a long way yet. But any progress is good progress. ;)

My OH is thrilled too (he's away for a few months but I give him updates every week). She's his dog really. ;)

How's your pup doing...about 4 weeks into the trial?

[Lab_Rat]

Hi Lillysmum - glad to hear youre making some progress with poor Ruby! I have an "allergic" dog also - poor girl is going through what I call an allergy overload atm!!

Just reading through the pages of this thread has made me cry actually - It shits me these poor dogs have these allergies and go through hell with the symptoms, us humans battle along with elimination diets and supplements and there seems no one simple answer for us !!!

Im thinking of putting my girl back on the RC vegeprotein dry food for a couple of months just so she can have a break from being an itchy, wooly dog - she a ridgeback. She has started paw licking to the max, scratching her chin and the insides of her mouth and being an easily irritated dog Shes also been on antihistamines for the last week or so too.

Up until now, after a vet assisted elimination diet, she has been on a lamb based diet. She react badly to beef and roo, moderately to chicken (she gets wings & necks weekly), and I dont go near any processed meats like dog rolls etc.. Perhaps I should give turkey a go - Im sure my vet said that its quite a low allergy food, as its not ever been high up on the list of things dogs are fed commercially.

Anyway - thats my sook. I know what youre going through lillysmum, and its a bugger of a journey! So I empathise with you, and all the other allergy owners out there in DOL land.

Perhaps we should start a Sub-forum for allergic dogs, where we can discuss, suggest, and have shoulders to cry on!!!!!!

Im off to do some "immune system" research, hoping to find something to help struggling immune systems get back on track and not be allergic.........needle in a haystack type stuff I think!

Rat

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Lab Rat - just out of curiosity, why do you still feed chicken if she reacts to it? Try turkey - you might be pleasantly surprised like I was. It's a bit more expensive and a bit harder to find. My local woolies sometimes has wings, usually has drumsticks (too big for Ruby unfortunately, but perfect for my greyhound), and I can get necks at a woolies near my work.

Next food item will be a plant rather than animal component. I'm going for a green vegetable, still deciding on broccoli or silver beet (silver beet is very hard to get up here so it might be broccoli).

[Lab_Rat]

Because it is harder to find - especially the wings. Also initially Zola wasnt too bad if she only had a few wings or necks a week, she seemed to handle them fine. But lately, in the last few weeks, she has become very itchy. Her poor ears are itchy and lumpy as well. Ive removed everything except lamb now until I can get to "the big smoke" and get some RC. Im not sure whether its the chicken, as they dont get it every day, or whether its treats and its just a build up of stuff (not quite sure how allergies/intolerances manifest in the dogs system?).

Rat

[alpha bet]

25 years ago i had a gsd bitch who had severe skin trouble. We tried all sorts of things and the biggest problem was that she was soooo itchy and it made her very frustrated.

A pet shop in our area provided a lot of natural foods to the greyhound trainers and he gave me a mixture to rub on her skin where she was itchy. It was a strange mix but it did seem to soothe her itchyness and she used to like the taste of it. It was an unusual colour and didnt smell the best when it was wet but once it dried on the skin it was okay. The trainer had told me that it was an old home remedy used by many of the old timers and it was fine if they licked it.

It was a mix of sulpher and potash.

Some of the natropaths use similar with horses.

Wonder if anyone else had heard or had any experience of this....