Ruby Update

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Ruby has finished stage one of the elimination diet - her skin settled down really well on the fish/sweet potato combo. She also had her last mange injection last week and may only need one every month or two if the mites build in numbers again. Our vet is thrilled with her progress (as am I)!

So tonight, she got to have a third food for the first time in ages! My vet suggested I try either eggs or canola oil this week, so I went for eggs as Ruby loves them. On his advice, I cooked them (poached) and also put some grated sweet potato in her bowl. I've never seen food disappear so fast as this bowl's contents went! On top of that, she got a raw fish head - which she loves! Now she's happily sleeping on the sofa but I'm sure the farts will start in a few hours.

Her lameness has subsided but she still limps from time to time. The cruciate is still likely to be injured (it showed on the X-ray as a rupture so that doesn't usually heal itself). So no immediate need for surgery either.

ETA - unfortunately, the eggs have caused a severe reaction. Ruby's skin took nearly 24 hours to show symptoms but she's now covered in small welts and has been scratching since late Sunday. So we're back to fish and sweet potato and if her skin settles by Saturday, we'll try another ingredient. I was going for an oil, and in light of her reaction to eggs, I think it will be a fish oil.

Edited August 13, 2009 by lillysmum

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

So eggs look to be off the menu.

I'm so disappointed for her as she has always loved eggs AND they're really good for dogs either raw or cooked as a treat or part of a natural diet.

Her skin is red, inflamed and itchy again. And it only took 24 hours for it to happen.

At least I can add another food to the list of no-no's. But nothing to the 'safe' foods. Back to fish and sweet potato.

I also made her some sweet potato chips today - she loves them! Hardly surprising as I like them too.

Edited June 23, 2009 by lillysmum

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Bumping back up because this is a frustrating thing to go through...I'm hoping our experiences will help others with allergy dogs.

[Kelly_Louise]

Oh lilysmum, how disappointing. I, and I'm sure many others, understand how delicate and frustrating it can be.

But everytime you have a setback, you are also making progress too - so I guess that's the most important thing.

Chloe also has issues with her skin... we have been told it's not Cushings related, doesn't appear to be food related - so it's in the environment somewhere but we don't know what or why... It's frustrating but lucky for us it's not constant and it's nothing too bad most of the time (only a couple of REALLY bad attacks).

Best of luck with your eliminations

[Erny]

Bumping back up because this is a frustrating thing to go through...I'm hoping our experiences will help others with allergy dogs.

Lillysmum .... you're not alone and I'm guessing that there aren't too many responses because we just don't know what to say (that isn't already running in other reasonably current threads).

I've already mentioned this in another thread, but I found "Calendula" (which is dried Marigold flowers - purchase from health food shop) tea a big help. May be for a different purpose though. Mandela's Vet suggested it to me when Mandela's hives were erupting and I was concerned about secondary skin infection. He said if the sores appeared infected, to 'bath' him with the tea made from the Calendula. I made the tea (allowed it to cool) and put it in a spray bottle and then sprayed his coat with it, rubbed it in so it would reach the skin. Within 24 hours a huge improvement to the size and apparent angriness of the hive scabs. They dried up very quickly and then came away, leaving relatively healthy new skin underneath (as opposed to red skin). I do believe the treatment actually gave him some relief in itself as well. I don't know if this is an appropriate treatment for your dog's skin, but I have used it on some early 'pimples' that were threatening to either become a rash or a hive and they have disappeared very quickly even after just a couple of wipe overs with cotton balls soaked in the 'tea'.

I know this doesn't go to fixing the cause, but might assist in helping to ease the symptoms without resorting to the application of chemically based treatments ???

Edited June 23, 2009 by Erny

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Erny, thanks for the info on calendula tea - I hadn't thought of using it topically...

Ruby also has contact allergies as far as we can tell. But if we can eliminate the dietary causes that will keep her stable for longer and managing a small period of intense reaction is much easier than a constant reaction.

The next food I'm trialling is yoghurt - plain, full fat yoghurt. It's a good source of both fat and protein so that has been the basis of my choice. If she tolerates that, then we can try a plant food next - I'm thinking either broccoli or zucchini. Then an oil, and so on.

Will keep updating this with what happens because I'm sure it will help someone else going through the same thing. While it's frustrating and upsetting when she has a reaction, at least I'm building a list of what she can and can't eat and it's very systematic so hard to go too far wrong. :p

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Well, the results of adding yoghurt are "inconclusive" to me. Ruby scratches but not as badly as before starting the food trials. I am concerned that yoghurt isn't very well tolerated but I won't remove it altogether just yet. I've got a list which reads:

Safe Foods: fish, fish heads, sweet potato

Unsafe Foods: chicken, eggs

Unsure Foods: yoghurt

Tonight we try Canola oil!

Let's hope she doesn't react to it. *crosses fingers*

[Kelly_Louise]

Fingers and paws crossed here

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I can hardly believe this. Before I had the chance to trial the Canola oil tonight, Ruby started to scratch really badly - her face bled. So I guess yoghurt is off the menu. This also means I have to delay introducing the Canola oil...until next week. *Sigh*

I guess I'll be making some sweet potato "chips" for her tomorrow!

For anyone interested in this, slice sweet potato into thin rounds. Lay on baking paper on a biscuit tray, put into slow oven for three hours or so, checking every hour. When dried, leave in oven to cool for another hour or two, then put into snap-lock bags. Use the same as any other dried treat. She loves them - I do too! :p

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

She's gone back to just fish and sweet potato this week and she's still scratching - a bit - but I'm starting canola oil tomorrow. She has to get something more into her diet as she's beginning to look skinny. I hope she has no reaction to canola oil...and next on the list will be offal - maybe lamb heart as it's both an organ and a muscle meat (and she needs both!).

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Bugger! I don't know what to do with this poor girl any more.

Gave her 1/3 cup of canola oil with her fish breakfast today...and she's been scratching all afternoon.

It's tearing my heart out watching her be so miserable...and I worry about the weight she's lost being on such a limited diet.

I'm going to give her some more tonight and see what happens but again, it looks like canola oil could be no good.

Either that or the canned salmon I gave her last night is making her react.

Every time I give her canned fish instead of fresh or frozen, she seems to react - anyone have any ideas on why? That's something which has me stumped.

[SmoothieGirl]

Lillysmum, stupid question but is the canned fish canned in springwater or oil?

I say its a stupid question because I'm sure you have already considered that, but just thought I would check - some small hope it might trigger a connection.

[Ptolomy]

Is somebody helping you with you elimination diet or are you doing it alone? The only reason I ask is that before begining a new food - the dog shouldn't be scratching. You posted on the 10th that she was still scratching a bit and yet the next day you started oil. So there is no way you can tell if she is still reacting to the yoghurt or if she is reacting to the oil.

We did the elimination diet - spent three months on goat and sweet potato before we were able to introduce our first new food. The new food had to consist of 1/3 of every meal and was on trial for 10 days - if she reacted any time during these 10 days - then we had to withdraw the food and wait until her skin returned to normal before being able to introduce something new. We then crossed the trialled food off and heaved a big sigh.

I wasn't allowed to try yoghurt until a long way down the track - before this we trialled lamb, pasta, corn, milk, chicken, beef, rice, I cheated and did mixed veges (I used the frozen packs from the supermarket), but if she reacted then I was going to have to try each one individually, fish, kangaroo, potato, eggs, fish oil capsules and then yoghurt.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Doing this with the supervision of my vet so he's definitely guiding me through the process.

Unfortunately Ruby doesn't just react to food (if only it was that simple!), as she has contact allergies year-round too.

Because she's been on fish and sweet potato for so long, she's lost a considerable amount of weight so I'm desperate to get some weight back on her. Hence introducing the canola oil today. She's actually not scratching now...which is a good sign.

The canned fish I've given her is packed in spring water or oil depending on the brand and type of fish involved. I don't think it makes much difference as she seems to be reacting to all canned fish...

[tomas]

Doing this with the supervision of my vet so he's definitely guiding me through the process.

Unfortunately Ruby doesn't just react to food (if only it was that simple!), as she has contact allergies year-round too.

Because she's been on fish and sweet potato for so long, she's lost a considerable amount of weight so I'm desperate to get some weight back on her. Hence introducing the canola oil today. She's actually not scratching now...which is a good sign.

The canned fish I've given her is packed in spring water or oil depending on the brand and type of fish involved. I don't think it makes much difference as she seems to be reacting to all canned fish...

One of my Vizsla had the worst contact and food allergies going! Got so bad he was raw everywhere and would rub his face on concrete till he bled! Did those injected prick tests and he was allergic to beef ,chicken, every green thing known to man,dust mites,household ingredients in cleaners you name it. He was on prednisone and anti-biotics alot!

I went prey model raw.

80% meat,10 % edible bone and 10 % offal of which 5 % is liver.

After detox which took about a month,your dog may be going through detox symptoms when she is scratching,have you thought of that? He is now100 % fine,can run through grass and eats anything he is given without a reaction!

I just thought to hell with it and on advice from other raw feeders I started him on chicken (raw-they said unlikely he would react as the grains were the problem in his dry,not raw),like breast bone in,which is still too much bone but an o.k place to start. Did a week on that and added some gizzards and chicken liver,fine on that so went to beef then some beef heart and some beef liver over the next week to 10 days with chicken meals in between,then lamb,then pork,then rabbit etc etc. All this took about 6 weeks ,he scratched most of this but it got less.

I bathed him in diluted Gold Listerine to keep him from reinfecting his skin...

Anyway 6 months down the track I have a prefect dog who can run through long grass eat anything and looks amazing. Apart from his grey muzzle,he is 8,he has the body of a 3 year old and the energy level of one too!

If she was my dog I would give it a shot,can't be any worse than she is now. I know my boy was a mess for the first few weeks and then it just got gradually less...

Oh and adding yoghurt and veggies is a no no in my book. They are sugar and dogs don't need sugar..just like a horse can eat bark but it's not exatcly meant to is it. But if that's all on offer they would eat it so as not to starve.

So try 80% meat,10 % edible bone and 10% offal of which 5 % is liver.

So in conclusion based on a dermatologists findings my boy WAS highly allergic to everything but I went through things step by step and alot of his scratching after going prey model was detox as the allergens escaped his body. All you can do in that situation is try to ease them through it.

Oh and TRY not to freak out,my dog was red raw everywhere and had scabs and bled after scratching,so it can work!

I wish you the best of luck.

[WreckitWhippet]

Poor Ruby it must be hard for both of you

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

PPS - it's hard on both of us because I don't like to see her miserable and she's obviously missing her favourite foods...you should see how excited she gets when I get dinner for Molly and Lilly - Ruby's eyes light up until she realises that she's getting fish...again.

I think the scratching was from the canned salmon. Second day on canola and Ruby's not really scratching today. Yay! It might be a safe food yet.

Tomas, all my dogs have been BARF fed for a number of years, including Ruby. No grains, no cereals, no artifical anything, just raw whole foods. Until I added a few 'naughty' foods including the occasional bit of dog roll as a treat. Ruby's always been an itchy dog but it was always worse over the summer months so we put it down to seasonal allergic response (as did our vets). We didn't suspect food seriously until she reacted to dog roll AND raw chicken within a few days of each other (the dog roll was about 20 grams so not much, the chicken was part of her 'usual' dinner of wings), the first reaction was vomiting then secondary came the hives/welts within about 4 hours. On that basis, our vet recommended we eliminate everything except fish and sweet potato as those two ingredients (for her) are relatively novel and therefore less likely to cause a reaction. She has done beautifully on fish/sweet potato...I've given her raw heads, cooked fillets, canned sardines/mackeral/salmon, raw sweet potato, dried sweet potato and mashed/cooked sweet potato over the first stage of the trial - I noted a reaction to all of the canned fish which settled within 24 hours. She settled sufficiently for us to pinpoint at least part of the problem as food but she still has contact allergies as well. We know this because of her paws (still red and inflamed somewhat) and muzzle (where she likes to 'dive bomb' the ground, as do many itchy dogs) but we haven't had specific allergy tests done (the lack of specialists here is the crux of the issue). Since the first stage of the diet ended, I've used my vet's guidelines to introduce one ingredient per week. We discussed at length the types of foods to re-introduce and we both felt that lamb and beef products would be a long way down the list, but yoghurt, canola or fish oil, eggs and some vegetables (one at a time) would be a better choice. Yoghurt was chosen for its fat content and its probiotics (Dr Billinghurst actually recommends yoghurt whereas the prey model doesn't and Ruby has always loved plain full fat yoghurt). Eggs were chosen for protein as a single protein source over long periods is undesirable unless there is no other option.

Unfortunately she's reacted to eggs, possibly to yoghurt (but a mild reaction, not a full-blown one), defintely mild reaction to canned fish products (no idea why) and not yet to canola oil. If she continues to improve on canola, I'll keep it in the diet for now. Next on the list was going to be lamb hearts but I'm going to try to source a different species if possible. I'm wary of lamb and beef...given that so many allergy dogs react to these very common protein sources and given that Ruby (fed raw chicken all her life) has reacted so strongly to chicken twice now. If I can get roo hearts I'll trial them but if not, I think I'll aim for broccoli (the iron and B vitamins are essential given the limited protein sources she's eating).

I've learnt quite a bit more about dog's nutrition and allergic response since we started this trial and I just want her back on a completely raw diet but I know it will take considerable time for us to work through these issues.

Please keep the feedback/suggestions/ideas/experiences coming!

[Winterpaws]

Have you tried this product? - http://animalitch.com.au/

I have no idea if it will work but anything would be worth trying I guess? They seem to have some good testimonials, I was going to use their horse product when Kallie had greasy heel that we couldn't resolve

[Nekhbet]

wow will her digestive system be OK with that much oil??? wont she just run through?!

if she's thin have you tried nutragel with her or divetelact?

as for allergies floor cleaners and what is on your clothing will not help! Yes we discovered that Diesel became itchy with a really fragrant washing powder when I did a load and he sat on one of the items.

so start removing all chemicals from the home too *sigh* its not easy is it

[Ravyk]

if you wants some info on green cleaning products, I'll dig up something I saved awhile back. It basically means you can cut your cleaning products down to about 6 items, including vinager, bicarb soda, bleach...and i cant remember the other ones.