lovemesideways Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 What are some fun ways I can improve on rovers heeling. Hes very unenthusiastic about it, lags behind and far to the side. So I want to start all over and make it really fun and wonderful. What are some ways to do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 I started a very similar topic and got some fabulous ideas - here's the linky Have fun ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 OOoooooooooh Yay! *grabs the clicker, rover and some treats* ;D! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 IMO making heeling fun is just as much about improving your base motivation, as it is in looking at how you are teaching it. Sure you have to make sure the learning is short and sweet, but working on the dogs base drive is what triggers the "fun" in the first place. Doodling and chopping and changing what you do etc is all good proofing, but that is not what is keeping the dog interested. If you have a food driven dog, then you need to look at how and when you are feeding, and if you have a prey driven dog, then look at the way you are stimulating and satisfying that. It sounds very basic,..and it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 IMO making heeling fun is just as much about improving your base motivation, as it is in looking at how you are teaching it.Sure you have to make sure the learning is short and sweet, but working on the dogs base drive is what triggers the "fun" in the first place. Doodling and chopping and changing what you do etc is all good proofing, but that is not what is keeping the dog interested. If you have a food driven dog, then you need to look at how and when you are feeding, and if you have a prey driven dog, then look at the way you are stimulating and satisfying that. It sounds very basic,..and it is. Are you able to elaborate a bit more please on getting the best out of a dog who is food driven? My problem, like so many others, is that my dog is all happy and enthusiastic to work as long as I have food, but loses interest BIG TIME if she knows she's not getting paid right away and frequently. Same story that's been used about a zillion times but doesn't make it any less frustrating for the individuals being affected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Ruby Star - think about how you are delivering the food - for example click for position and deliver the food in position or throw it in front of you ("Get it!") or to the side, then RUN the other way and reinforce when the dog hits heel position again. Then click and run to one of several food containers planted in your training area (or on people). Have food on you but don't always reward from that source. At other times don't have food on you. Mix it up and make it totally unpredictable. Once you add variable reinforcement (e.g. 5 steps, 7 steps, 3 steps, 9 steps) to the mix, it makes it even more fun. Remember the 2 food game? Spend a minute or 2 hyping the dog up by throwing food one way and then the other, suddenly throw in a "heel", click and run to a stashed reward container. Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Ruby Star - think about how you are delivering the food - for example click for position and deliver the food in position or throw it in front of you ("Get it!") or to the side, then RUN the other way and reinforce when the dog hits heel position again. Then click and run to one of several food containers planted in your training area (or on people). Have food on you but don't always reward from that source. At other times don't have food on you. Mix it up and make it totally unpredictable. Once you add variable reinforcement (e.g. 5 steps, 7 steps, 3 steps, 9 steps) to the mix, it makes it even more fun. Remember the 2 food game? Spend a minute or 2 hyping the dog up by throwing food one way and then the other, suddenly throw in a "heel", click and run to a stashed reward container. Does that help? Yep thanks I'm working on duration heelwork (in big circles, not adding any turns or positions) so she won't look away, using variable reinforcement (different count of steps each time) so will chucking the food and getting her to find heel position again help with maintaining her focus? Cos that's the part I need help with. I've tried hiding food, but unless she sees food before we start working, she gives me the big middle finger. I think that's by biggest grievance, if she doesn't know there's food to earn, she is the dullest dog you've ever seen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) Ruby Star - think about how you are delivering the food - for example click for position and deliver the food in position or throw it in front of you ("Get it!") or to the side, then RUN the other way and reinforce when the dog hits heel position again. Then click and run to one of several food containers planted in your training area (or on people). Have food on you but don't always reward from that source. At other times don't have food on you. Mix it up and make it totally unpredictable. Once you add variable reinforcement (e.g. 5 steps, 7 steps, 3 steps, 9 steps) to the mix, it makes it even more fun. Remember the 2 food game? Spend a minute or 2 hyping the dog up by throwing food one way and then the other, suddenly throw in a "heel", click and run to a stashed reward container. Does that help? Yep thanks I'm working on duration heelwork (in big circles, not adding any turns or positions) so she won't look away, using variable reinforcement (different count of steps each time) so will chucking the food and getting her to find heel position again help with maintaining her focus? Cos that's the part I need help with. I've tried hiding food, but unless she sees food before we start working, she gives me the big middle finger. I think that's by biggest grievance, if she doesn't know there's food to earn, she is the dullest dog you've ever seen!! It's hard with a dog that has the dexterity and inclination to give you the finger.....I've got one of those too so I have to think very laterally I have found throwing food to be fantastic for building motivation - make sure she is HUNGRY too and knows she has to work for her meals. How does she eat her main meal of the day? Maybe it's also worth trying a non reward marker...? I use "ah well" - be careful about using it too much, though, because it can kill motivation if you're not careful. Perhaps also try hiding food BUT still have food on you to begin with so you can transition her to understanding that the food she is after might not be on you personally. And RUN full of excitement to where the food pot is hidden - make it a huge game between the two of you Also be careful about supporting the dog too much with your voice or with your commands/body language when you are asking the dog to work - just use the clicker to mark the desired behaviour. I think that is a problem with some dogs that are "ring wise". ETA: Consider the food you are using too! At home training is only done with dry food. At training it's a combination of any or all of the following: tiny pieces of cooked chicken, cheese, boiled egg, raw chicken mince, tinned salmon, larger dog biscuits and 4 legs. For a trial, I might pull out something he hasn't had in ages so it's an extra special treat. A jackpot can be a handful of treats or feed a number of treats rapidly - variety is the key. Smart dogs are quick to tire of novelty! The easiest way to start training something is at home in a comfortable environment - hide her daily dry food ration (for example) at different points around the house. Ask for a simple command (e.g. sit) and then run to a food pot and treat. She'll catch on if that's how she has to earn her dinner!!! One more thing - don't let her disengage from you! Make sure you give her a release command whilst you organise your treat bag etc. Play the 2-food game to get her switched on, do some training and then release again. What tends to happen is the dog doesn't want to go off and sniff etc but wants to keep on training - they think they are training YOU to give THEM treats! Edited June 21, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Thankyou I think the key to me bettering our training is gradually getting those treats off me and rewarding from a different source! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 RubyStar - what I have been doing with Ness before I go into a trial ring is to play the 2 food game with her. She really likes chasing food. Then I will get somebody else to hold her if possible and I will go wait over by the ring and just as they are about ready for me my friend rings her to the ring and releases her while she is pulling on the lead to get to me and I will reward her for being in heel and then straight in. I find a lot of 2 food game as a reward helps with the enthusiasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Thanks for the tips, I admit I haven't done a lot of the 2 food game myself, just bits and bobs of it. I will increase this some more and see how we go! Getting your friend to hold Ness wouldn't work for Ruby. She likes strangers more than me So she wouldn't pull to get to me... little cow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Hmm RS if that is the case then maybe there is a reason why she then isn't interested in you when the food isn't there . What if you left her in a crate and did something with Millie first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Yes, that reason is I am a boring, boring mother... apparently - and she's been spoiled rotten since day 1 :p If I work Millie first while she watches she seems keen for it to be her turn, but only cos she thinks she's missing out on treats She just looooooooves strangers and takes comfort in the fact that I'm there, but if I disappear on her and she notices, she goes into panic mode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Have ran into a problem from food throwing!! Have been using Good Os as they have a bit of weight in them and the dogs are going nuts for them as they don't have junk food! Yesterday whilst doing a run through Poppy was sniffing leaves! They were Good O colour :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caffy Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Yes, that reason is I am a boring, boring mother... apparently - and she's been spoiled rotten since day 1 If I work Millie first while she watches she seems keen for it to be her turn, but only cos she thinks she's missing out on treats She just looooooooves strangers and takes comfort in the fact that I'm there, but if I disappear on her and she notices, she goes into panic mode! Every dog is different and there are a multitude ways of teaching heeling..I like the hand targeting that I have seen but I’ve never tried it. For a food crazy dog, I’d use food pots and start with them on me. Then I’d progress to putting them on the ground for duration work and also hiding them in spots where my dog hasn’t seen me put them. I would leave my dog in the house..go outside and hide small food pot on sheds or in trees and ask for differing times of heelwork and then jackpot to any food pot that I had hidden. Half the fun was asking the dog “where is your jackpot”!! That is an easy way to start off heelwork after you have highly rewarded the dog in position. Rubystar I think you’ll get a happy dog using that method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Thanks! Getting food gradually off me and using jackpot treat pots I will most certainly work harder with from now on! I've tried the jackpot treat pots before and it worked with Millie, but with Ruby, as she had no idea I had treats hidden and saw no payment up front, she didn't work for me at all! But I will do this gradually starting with them on me or on the ground in sight and hopefully she'll get the idea that treats are going to come from different places. Just hope she will work for the possibility, as so far she will only work if she sees her payment up front - which I know is a big no-no Sorry to hijack the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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