Shakti Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 A friend and I were discussing whether or not it would be possible to train a dog to lie so I thought i would post it here in the hopes of getting some knowledgeable opinions. What we mean by lying is - can you train a friendly, relaxed, well-balanced dog to growl at someone on commeand WITHOUT altering its emotion ie it is still placid and relaxed but *looks* as though it is threatening? Conversely, can you train a dog which is ill at ease (NOT aggressive) to wag its tail on command and appear friendly when its mood is actually fearful or shy or uneasy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Probably, IMHO, as behaviours occur in more than one context - tail wagging isn't necessarily friendly and many dogs will growl in play. I have taught growling on cue and it didn't make that dog any less friendly, but I would say I didn't find the growl entirely convincing - convincing enough for a non- dog person to be fooled, but to me she always sounded a bit 'acting', LOL. For people I have heard theories that assuming the physical posture can feed back and change the actual mood/brain chemistry, but don't know about dogs. Speaking of acting, it occurs to me that professional trainers of film/TV dogs must do this succesfully all the time. I don't think of it as 'lying' though. Edited June 16, 2009 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 My dog would look people in the eye and growl, taught it quite easily and she was as friendly as anything. She just enjoyed performing. She never got into an aggressive heightened state because you got her to "Talk" on command. My friend had a Dobe who hated showing. She taught her how to walk into a stack, lift her head up, then drop her nose. After she had done that my friend would say tail(which in the ring would be planted firmly down) she would then wag her tail quite fast the entire time she was standing there. The dog looked like she was enjoying it, but in reality her owner had done lots and lots of training to get her to that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Short answer to both...yes. Break out the clicker if you know how to use one correctly. Thanks go to the Hollywood trainers that have been proving this can be done for years.....(happy dog appearing to be cross) As for the opposite....again....target a motion and put a command to it....I had a dog that would not wag tail in the ring....I taught said dog to wag on command....she still hated the show ring, but the tail was a wiggly blur and didn't go unnoticed by the judges....I knew by the look on her face she hated being there but the judge never saw that, only the waggy tail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 A friend and I were discussing whether or not it would be possible to train a dog to lie so I thought i would post it here in the hopes of getting some knowledgeable opinions.What we mean by lying is - can you train a friendly, relaxed, well-balanced dog to growl at someone on commeand WITHOUT altering its emotion ie it is still placid and relaxed but *looks* as though it is threatening? Conversely, can you train a dog which is ill at ease (NOT aggressive) to wag its tail on command and appear friendly when its mood is actually fearful or shy or uneasy? Why would you want to??? If my dog is worried, scared, threatened, I want to see the signals, I don't understand your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Why would you want to??? That was the question in my mind, too. If it was because you wanted your dog to look scarey/protective to other people, I strongly urge you use caution and would suggest you seek professional training advice first. I help to rehabilitate avoidance motivated aggressive behaviours and one of the things I've always explained to my clients is that part of the rehabilitation process involves working to alter the dog's outward behaviour and that over time, its emotions to the things that bothers him/her will change to reflect its newly learnt outward behavior. I cannot see why or how the reverse could not occur if you are not careful and don't know what you are doing. Or is this just a hypothetical? IMO, you would not achieve an exact replica of an aggressive dog with all the body signals that go with it unless the dog was really feeling aggression. Edited June 16, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 This is what movie dog trainers do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) What, PF? What do they train the dog to do? Are you saying that a dog so trained shows all the body languages of a dog truly in the emotional state of aggression without the dog feeling the emotion of aggression? After all, that's the only way it could be if the dog was "lying" as per the OP's first post. I am remaining a doubting Thomas as far as that is concerned. Edited June 16, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) What, PF? What do they train the dog to do? Are you saying that a dog so trained shows all the body languages of a dog truly in the emotional state of aggression without the dog feeling the emotion of aggression? After all, that's the only way it could be if the dog was "lying" as per the OP's first post.I am remaining a doubting Thomas as far as that is concerned. I've seen some pretty serious displays of "aggression" from dogs who were playing. I honestly think they build on that. I can get one of my dogs to growl in play and display teeth. I can make one of FHRPs do it to me too. He's quite impressive. All I have to do is become a "scary monster" and away he goes. Barking, teeth and growling is really all that's required. Ditto "attacks".. they can be trained and some dogs think going the sleeve is a big game. There have been some good shows on Animal Planet about training movie animals. Edited June 16, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 most movie attack dogs are schutzhund/security/police trained with decoy actors you cannot train a dog to randomly wave its tail, bare its teeth or do a complete submissive posture without capturing the associate anxiety level that goes with it. there are general actions and then there are inherent actions. I have a book of Koehlers who trained all of Disneys movie dogs. You cannot make a dog do what is against nature. Many movie goers do not understand dog body language and mistake tricks for actual aggression, fear etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Question re: teaching the tail wag as a few have mentioned. Do you think you have conditioned the behaviour alone (tail wag) or the feeling which then produces the tail wag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) I am sticking strongly to the "dogs don't lie" concept. There would be things such as pupil dilation; size of eye; amongst other things that would be different. Same with pilo erection, which is an involuntary action. IMO if you were getting any of those sorts of things then you'd have elicited an emotion in the dog that would reflect the action you are seeking, even if it was on cue. Consequently, I cannot see nor agree that a dog is capable of lying. Edited June 16, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Question re: teaching the tail wag as a few have mentioned. Do you think you have conditioned the behaviour alone (tail wag) or the feeling which then produces the tail wag? As I said it was my friend who taught this so I can't know for sure, however she used a clicker to mark the wag of the tail. She then put a cue on it and the dog when given the cue wagged her tail. If not given the cue she looked like she had been kicked up the bum. I guess that her overall demeanour was happier so maybe the feeling was conditioned - not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Question re: teaching the tail wag as a few have mentioned. Do you think you have conditioned the behaviour alone (tail wag) or the feeling which then produces the tail wag? As I said it was my friend who taught this so I can't know for sure, however she used a clicker to mark the wag of the tail. She then put a cue on it and the dog when given the cue wagged her tail. If not given the cue she looked like she had been kicked up the bum. I guess that her overall demeanour was happier so maybe the feeling was conditioned - not sure. When a timid person is taught to walk tall and proud, more often than not, over time, the person begins to feel less timid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 There was a Rottie trained to growl etc on command that was on Kath & Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*Shell*~ Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I have a feeling it wouldn't be too hard to train Zero to growl on command - he does it for a few different things when we're playing so if i clicked and treated then put a command to it, i have a feeling he would get it in time. It probably wouldn't be convincing though. As for training an unhappy dog to act happy - that's not something i would ever teach. I like having a dog that I'm able to read and find that a lot more valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vehs Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 You can train happy dogs to growl etc and happy dogs to act happier, but if a dog is very scared nervous in an environment and you wanted it to act happy you might have a bit of trouble getting it to comply When you watch inspector rex, no matter what the scene or music is telling you feel you can always see how damn happy the dogs they use are My Shep doesn't play bow, I am teaching him (well actually taught, he learnt in all of 10min last night) now I want to take him to a dog park and tell him to do it and see if other dogs will play with him for a change I think other dogs would believe him, even if it was 'fake' because dogs act strange around huski even when the huski is playful because they can't get past the hair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 you will find that play growls and some breed specific teeth showing are different to aggressive, anxiety or fear growls. My DDB will growl on command as well but its a different pitch and tone to the 'there is someone outside in the dark' dogs may be able to lie to us but they cannot lie to each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rhapsodical78 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Onyx growls on command. He's always in a good mood when he's doing it because he often gets a reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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