Tali Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 Thanks Underdog - will have a go tonight and see if I can make some progress. Thanks to all on here too - some new ideas really have me enthusastic again - and hopefully that will help Jess too!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keshwar Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Just a thought. When you have her off lead are you continually looking down/back to see where she is? I know I developed this behaviour with the result of Faxon lagging further behind. My body language - left shoulder moving back when I looked - was queing the lagging. Bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Agree with Cosmolo - tiny baby steps at first! I'd start off by calling her to heel, if she is in good position, click, release, big excited reward for her, then just take a break. Rinse and repeat a little bit later. You want to leave her keen to heel again, rather than getting sick of it and losing focus. If she is consistently in the wrong heel position, I would probably help her there at first by guiding with a leash, or asking her to target your hand with her nose, etc. Like Nehkbet has said, it's not fair to just keep telling her 'Volvo, volvo' if she doesn't know what it means, it will just frustrate her or confuse her. You have to explain to her what you do want before you start telling her she's wrong. But when she is getting to heel position by herself at least some of the time, then introducing the NRM can help her really start to understand the subtle distinction between a precise heel position and a not-quite-good-enough-heel position. So after a few sessions when she's getting it right some of the time, then if you call her to heel and she's in the wrong position, you can start giving your NRM and immediately stepping away (so she realises the NRM means that the exercise has restarted), and ask her for a heel again. Hope that makes sense? I think there are probably about as many different ways to teach heel as there are obedience triallers, but if we all tell you how we'd do it, I guess you can make up your own method. "Doodling" can help too. That involves silly short little heeling patterns (that you'd never see in the ring) such as taking a step backwards, a few steps sideways, a pivot in place, etc. Dogs that can doodle well really do understand heeling, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 One of the hardest things for me to learn was to allow the dog to make mistakes especially in shaping behaviours. Also I tend to want to add a verbal cue too early. Am getting better at that though. I have a lagging problem with Diesel too so that is why when I do practice heeling (not that often now) it is in short fun bursts and using shaping with the clicker. If he is enthusiastic I will throw in a few steps and maybe a turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 The reason I use large circles is to teach balance with focus. It will make it easier for the dog to make the transition to turns without having to break focus. Its a very important step in my method, although its different teaching a green dog the initial stages like others have said (baby steps) Have you actually taught a bullet proof focus yet? Its the very first step in teaching great heeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Doodling Never realised it was called that!! Sometimes its hard to explain what you mean without demoonstrating when you're talking about doodling- although knowing the term probably won't make it any easier for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Doodling Never realised it was called that!! Sometimes its hard to explain what you mean without demoonstrating when you're talking about doodling- although knowing the term probably won't make it any easier for me! Well that's what we call it over this side of the ditch anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tali Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Doodling!! I love it!! (patience patience... get through the small-steps pencil grip before starting the doodling!) Bullet proof focus?? No - can you teach that? I thought they either have it or they dont! I know I could get it with Jess if I tie either the cat or a bird to my head.... Not all that practical though and I suspect the judges in the trial ring may question my lovely 'hats'... sorry if i'm sounding really stupid - I admit I'm exploiting having all of your opinions as my obedience club is a great club that is friendly and encouraging, but we don't have that many people/time to deal with specific problems like this one... Edited June 16, 2009 by Tali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 You don't sounds stupid at all!! i train other people's dogs for a living and its only recently that i have truly worked out (and had the time to put into practice) the best way to get the enthusiasm back into Cosmo's training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Sounds like you have heaps of great advice on here- some of which I am going to take away to try myself, never have too many tricks up ones sleeve! A game I play with mine is to start of heeling, then run off as fast as you can, hopefully the dog runs to catch up (most do), possibly forgets it's self a little and will run to you possibly slightly past. Click the second the dog is in the correct position and reward. With clicker training I was told (especially in the beginning) never click without treating, never treat without clicking. Even if your click is a mistake you reward, if you don't the click will become unreliable to the dog. Your treats for training must be really worth working for. My treats at dog club have to have a higher value than the ones I use at home or for tricks. Try roast frech chicken or beef, or something just as tasty. When I train heel, I quite often do one step CT, then 2 etc etc. I also will do one step back every now and again, or a few backwards. Lots of little circles and funny heeling patterns - or Doodles as I will now call them- are really good as if you lose focus you can go another direction. I also do lots of training on large circles to help both myself and my dog to have good bablnce and it actually helps you to walk straight as silly as that sounds. Once you get a reasonable degree of focus, your dog will quite often follow what your shoulders are doing. So if you are looking back at your dog all the time then your shoulder is back, therefore your dog is moving back as they think that is what you want. You need to think about what your body is doing as they are much better than us at reading body language. Your mouth may be telling them one thing, but your body quite another. I would say 95% percent of my training is done off lead. Having said that I have a very safe place to do so. At dog club she is on a lead and will only come off when she is working very well and does not get distracted. I have to remind myself to train on lead as if I don't I get all gumby and all thumbs as it gets in the way. Good on you for doing so much research and try not to get too frustrated, if it was easy everyone would have dogs with multiple obedience titles. I am going to re-read all the replies later and note them down for myself to try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Doggie is a sheltie so is supposed to be behind! She is just doing what comes natural. My mum's sheltie also liked to poke the back of our legs with her pointy little nose Couple of things. When you reward after the good 1 or 2 steps, don't ask for a sit. Keep your left leg back and reward. You want to reward the heeling and not the sit. If you ask for the sit she will think that is what the treat is for. I like to throw the treat forward for a lagging dog. That seems to really get them up and happy. So walk a few steps, click & chuck treat forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trifecta Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Just a thought.When you have her off lead are you continually looking down/back to see where she is? I know I developed this behaviour with the result of Faxon lagging further behind. My body language - left shoulder moving back when I looked - was queing the lagging. Bear. I am not guilty of this but I know I always take off with too big a stride first up, so I am in danger of losing the dog at the outset! Have tried to moderate this & also make my walking more interesting...... smaller steps & more bouncy! I am getting heaps out of this topic, & perhaps most importantly, the motivation to train. I know I was losing my motivation as quickly as the dog, so it is really a double-edged sword! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tali Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 I got up bright and early this am and went for our customary walk/training session. Was heaps better - mainly because of my new attitude thanks to you all! Rather than thinking "why is she lagging when the lead comes off", I was now thinking of this as a whole new skill, and so actually thinking about how to train her to do this - what a difference. Find the heel was fun!! although i did go through too many treats rewarding every time she was in the right spot, but that will lessen with time! She was actually very good at it in the slow and normal pace stuff, but dropped off markedly in the fast pace. BUT - i did notice that I tend to look back for her in fast pace, and was wondering "is she with me". I've now thought about it more and decided exactly where I want her to heel (for me with her shoulder to my leg so I can see her little nose sticking out) and then just kept going and only clicked/rewarded when she was there. Yay!!! She was better than ever - not great - but better! 10% per day makes 100% in 10 days - so I'm very happy with that progress! I have already struck the stepping off too big problem myself - the difference in size between my Kees dog and my Sheltie bitch doesn't seem much to me, but actually is significant in terms of how much I can stride out - hard to remember though! I'm hoping I might get even better results with yummier treats - and that these might help her keep focus on me too. (blood from raw meat dripping off my cold, vegetarian hands in the pre-dawn light doesn't really appeal, but I'll do that for my little doggy!). The less structured work too seemed to help - I started with a couple of steps, but realised that my dog is better than I actually felt she was - she doesn't lag ALL the time like I felt she did. She really only lags in a big way on the fast pace work - so I was able to practice some doodling and some big wandering lines in the normal pace. Doodling is fun - but little dog didn't quite get it - kept treating it as a 'finish' when I'd step back from her, so I figure i need to do more work before I do that. So thanks to all of you for your very helplful advice!! Little dog liked it to - there was more enthusiasm about everything this morning - and her recall nearly set fire to the field, with her arriving right up against my ankles like a little lightening bolt! Very happy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tali Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Doggie is a sheltie so is supposed to be behind! She is just doing what comes natural. My mum's sheltie also liked to poke the back of our legs with her pointy little nose Sorry for double post, but I did like this!! I've noticed when I tell Jess to 'go free' at the end, she runs around me and tries to get me to run so she can chase me and herd me.... oh dear!! I'm a very lazy sheep it seems! I recently met a dog trainer here who was very keen for me to bring her over and try her at herding - said he'd love to see a working Sheltie (I know a few who do this) and Jess does seem to have at least an interest in it. Would be interesting to see if interest = talent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Keep training sessions short and fun so your dog wants to do more, always quit while you're ahead.. If you wanted to train your dog to lag, how would you teach it? Might give you some clues as to why it's happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Don't worry about rewarding heavily to begin with - best way to learn.....think about whether you would want go to work each day if you weren't paid for it! Throwing food is fun and can really build a dog's motivation - really yummy treats that don't break on impact are best ETA: Try to utilise whatever floats your dog's boat as well - my mad Dally LOVES to gallop fast, sniff and lift his leg on everything - after some lovely heel work that's exactly what I let him do then call him back, do some more work, then release again. Leopuppy04 and I were laughing that when she releases her dogs they want to play tug with her as a reward whereas my nutter bolts off to piss on something Laffi can also vouch for his madness! Edited June 17, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Don't worry about rewarding heavily to begin with - best way to learn.....think about whether you would want go to work each day if you weren't paid for it!Throwing food is fun and can really build a dog's motivation - really yummy treats that don't break on impact are best ETA: Try to utilise whatever floats your dog's boat as well - my mad Dally LOVES to gallop fast, sniff and lift his leg on everything - after some lovely heel work that's exactly what I let him do then call him back, do some more work, then release again. Leopuppy04 and I were laughing that when she releases her dogs they want to play tug with her as a reward whereas my nutter bolts off to piss on something Laffi can also vouch for his madness! I think this is great advice TSD I am amazed how fantastic your dally's recall is and impressed that you were able to use everyday rewards (like the "release to piss" :D ) to get it :p I also wouldn't worry about using heaps of food Most of people tend to underpay their dogs anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 She really only lags in a big way on the fast pace work This is often caused by the handlers gait. Get someone to have a close look at what your legs do from head on view while in fast pace. The slightest sideways movement of your foot may be enough to put a small dog off. I strongly recommend that you teach proper focus too, as it can take a long time for the dog to learn how to balance itself in the heads up position, particulary in fast pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Thanks for replies so far - I do have a clicker but haven't really used it as yet. Am I right in understanding that I 'load' the clicker with rewards (eg. food). Then when she IS in position, I click (but don't reward EVERY time)? you must reward EVERY time or otherwise you make the click meaningless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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