Pete.the.dog Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 My not-so-little man Pete is about 11 months, cross breed from the pound. I've had him around 3 months. When I got him he was very timid and clingy and afraid of men, with absolutely not training. I've since been taking him to obedience class, he's not afraid of men and has got his confidence back - in spades. He is quite independent and dominant, so I have been implementing the NILIF system, which is doing better, he's learning his place a bit better I think. But anyway say for example we are walking and he'll pull on the lead, I stop and then hold him still then make sure he is walking on loose lead next to me - but when we do this he refuses to sit when we get to a road (which he is normally very good at) and then we get home and he's all sulky and doesn't even want to come inside - is this normal in adolescent dogs or in training with NILIF!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I stop and then hold him still then make sure he is walking on loose lead next to me what do you mean by this? He could be confused and think he's being corrected for doing something he's meant too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 I stop and then hold him still then make sure he is walking on loose lead next to me what do you mean by this? He could be confused and think he's being corrected for doing something he's meant too When he pulls on the lead ahead of me I saw 'ah ah' and stop, then holding lead tight i get into a position where he is standing next to my left legs and let the lead fall loose next to me and start walking with him next to me loose and say good boy, and praise him when he is in the right spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 so when you walk do you expect a tight competition heel or a loose lead walk where he just doesnt pass in front of you then holding lead tight i get into a position where he is standing next to my left legs and let the lead fall loose next to me and start walking with him next to me loose and say good boy, and praise him when he is in the right spot so are you keeping pressure on him whilst getting him in position? Sounds like he gets a pattern but not an overall walk. why not just give him a little correction on his collar if he's trying to pull or get ahead and only keep your voice to praising him for focus. If he wont sit push his bum down! I wouldnt be stopping and pulling him into position he's not understanding. Also if you're on a walk he shouldnt be in a tight heel its quite high pressure. He should be next to you and not ahead of you but that comes as he comes to understand the leash and trust you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Am I right in thinking YOU are the one moving into position alongside HIM ? then holding lead tight i get into a position where he is standing next to my left legs And then he hangs back, and is reticent to come inside... perhaps , with all the manhandling, and changing of positions.. he is a bit anxious? Dogs , IMO don't get 'sulky'..they get confused or anxious, often... What procedure does your obedience instructor use/recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) How does he know when he's doing the right thing if you are doing all the change of position? I'd be inclined to stop and reward a loose lead than haul in back into position. Are you free walking or do you actually want him to "heel". If that's the case, the exercise needs to be taught and put on cue. Edited June 15, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 so when you walk do you expect a tight competition heel or a loose lead walk where he just doesnt pass in front of youthen holding lead tight i get into a position where he is standing next to my left legs and let the lead fall loose next to me and start walking with him next to me loose and say good boy, and praise him when he is in the right spot so are you keeping pressure on him whilst getting him in position? Sounds like he gets a pattern but not an overall walk. why not just give him a little correction on his collar if he's trying to pull or get ahead and only keep your voice to praising him for focus. If he wont sit push his bum down! I wouldnt be stopping and pulling him into position he's not understanding. Also if you're on a walk he shouldnt be in a tight heel its quite high pressure. He should be next to you and not ahead of you but that comes as he comes to understand the leash and trust you. No I don't want a competition heel I just want my arm to stay in tact! He is always pulling ahead of me, I just want him to be by my side not pushing ahead hence pulling on the lead. Praising in the right position, and giving little corrections (it ends up being he pulls little correction he pulls harder) hasn't worked so my instructor suggested I try this. It's not a tight heel that I am after, it's not pulling ahead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 How does he know when he's doing the right thing if you are doing all the change of position?I'd be inclined to stop and reward a loose lead than haul in back into position. Are you free walking or do you actually want him to "heel". If that's the case, the exercise needs to be taught and put on cue. When he is walking next to me without pulling he is getting a lot of praise, if he's in the right spot - sorry I must not have made myself clear earlier - I am telling him good boy and praising him, then when he goes ahead of me he gets 'ah ah' and I stop, I feel like its a pretty clear message I'm giving him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted June 15, 2009 Author Share Posted June 15, 2009 Am I right in thinking YOU are the one moving into position alongside HIM ?then holding lead tight i get into a position where he is standing next to my left legs And then he hangs back, and is reticent to come inside... perhaps , with all the manhandling, and changing of positions.. he is a bit anxious? Dogs , IMO don't get 'sulky'..they get confused or anxious, often... What procedure does your obedience instructor use/recommend? No sorry that's not right at all. As I said in my first post he is pulling ahead of me constantly. When he is pulled ahead I stop. Hold him steady until I move forwards to catch up to him, and then proceed with him by my side. I am not dragging an anxious dog along manhandling, I am trying to get him to stop pulling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 If he's a big dog, and you are only giving him small corrections, he won't learn anything. When using aversive methods, the timing needs to be impecable, and given at the precise time he moves passed your immaginary line in the sand, and not when he is at the end of the leash. The corrections used must be strong enough to change his thought pattern, but weak enough not to cause injury to him, otherwise you will need to explore other methods, like just coming to a stop, and waiting for him to work out that being back in position will then allow him to move forward (can take a very long time to sink in with that method) Either way, the dog must learn to self adjust without being placed in postion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) No sorry that's not right at all. As I said in my first post he is pulling ahead of me constantly. When he is pulled ahead I stop. Hold him steady until I move forwards to catch up to him, and then proceed with him by my side. I am not dragging an anxious dog along manhandling, I am trying to get him to stop pulling! I would not be positioning myself beside him for a start Stop, encourage him to come back to you and assume the position you want, praise for coming back/being with you. Everytime he pulls, you stop until he's in position (so the walk stops when he pulls). Nope, you don't get very long walks to begin with. I would also allow him plenty of "free time" when he can walk infront or beside or behind you (not pulling), not constantly at your side - it is his walk afterall! Maybe start with 10 seconds of him walking at heel (I know you don't mean the competition style heel) then 30 seconds of "walk where you like as long as it's nice", then 10 seconds of heel. Depends what your ultimate aim is - for now it's stopping the pulling, but later do you want a competition heel? Edited June 16, 2009 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 have him on the full length of the lead as soon as he tries to get ahead, do a quick direction change and 'pop pop pop' COME ON PUP COME ON! and when he reaches you give him some food. Dont stop it gives the dog a chance to think! Keep moving at a good speed, make him follow you willingly (never ah ah him let the correction come from the collar, not you) and you are always positive and happy. If he is a naturally shy or reclusive dog verbal + Physical punishment can push him away from you. Timidity can mean what you think is an average tone could be conveying dissapointment or something to avoid for him and hence he shuts down. Let the punishment come from the collar and you are always the pool of happiness, sunshine and food. If he really bolts ahead give him a good correction but same again, give him a second before you call him so the punishment sinks in. Yes you're on a leash, theres a limit to and and guess what happens when you reach said limit - but its OK because I'm the source of all that is good for you you will find that the dog naturally will gravitate to you - and PRAISE EVERY TIME he even looks at you! FOr every correction I want at least 2-3 praises ... and praise is not , eh yeah ok its 'GOOD DOG!' firm, happy and very clear to him he's a good dog! you can usually stop pulling in one session like this but make your corrections quality over quantity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 have him on the full length of the leadas soon as he tries to get ahead, do a quick direction change and 'pop pop pop' COME ON PUP COME ON! and when he reaches you give him some food. Dont stop it gives the dog a chance to think! Keep moving at a good speed, make him follow you willingly (never ah ah him let the correction come from the collar, not you) and you are always positive and happy. If he is a naturally shy or reclusive dog verbal + Physical punishment can push him away from you. Timidity can mean what you think is an average tone could be conveying dissapointment or something to avoid for him and hence he shuts down. Let the punishment come from the collar and you are always the pool of happiness, sunshine and food. If he really bolts ahead give him a good correction but same again, give him a second before you call him so the punishment sinks in. Yes you're on a leash, theres a limit to and and guess what happens when you reach said limit - but its OK because I'm the source of all that is good for you you will find that the dog naturally will gravitate to you - and PRAISE EVERY TIME he even looks at you! FOr every correction I want at least 2-3 praises ... and praise is not , eh yeah ok its 'GOOD DOG!' firm, happy and very clear to him he's a good dog! you can usually stop pulling in one session like this but make your corrections quality over quantity! Ok thank you for that I'll give it a try this afternoon - I might look a little nuts changing direction every five seconds but I think it's worth it haha - thank you for the advice on correcting with the collar, hopefully that will stop the sulks "you are always the pool of happiness, sunshine and food" - I like this line! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 No sorry that's not right at all. As I said in my first post he is pulling ahead of me constantly. When he is pulled ahead I stop. Hold him steady until I move forwards to catch up to him, and then proceed with him by my side. I am not dragging an anxious dog along manhandling, I am trying to get him to stop pulling! I would not be positioning myself beside him for a start Stop, encourage him to come back to you and assume the position you want, praise for coming back/being with you. Everytime he pulls, you stop until he's in position (so the walk stops when he pulls). Nope, you don't get very long walks to begin with. I would also allow him plenty of "free time" when he can walk infront or beside or behind you (not pulling), not constantly at your side - it is his walk afterall! Maybe start with 10 seconds of him walking at heel (I know you don't mean the competition style heel) then 30 seconds of "walk where you like as long as it's nice", then 10 seconds of heel. Depends what your ultimate aim is - for now it's stopping the pulling, but later do you want a competition heel? No ultimate aims of competition heel, I just want him to walk nicely without pulling.. If I had any ultimate aim it would be to be able to walk without a lead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Am I right in thinking YOU are the one moving into position alongside HIM ?then holding lead tight i get into a position where he is standing next to my left legs And then he hangs back, and is reticent to come inside... perhaps , with all the manhandling, and changing of positions.. he is a bit anxious? Dogs , IMO don't get 'sulky'..they get confused or anxious, often... What procedure does your obedience instructor use/recommend? No sorry that's not right at all. As I said in my first post he is pulling ahead of me constantly. When he is pulled ahead I stop. Hold him steady until I move forwards to catch up to him, and then proceed with him by my side. I am not dragging an anxious dog alongmanhandling, I am trying to get him to stop pulling! I didn't ever say you were dragging an anxious dog along - What I was commenting on is the fact that YOU keep him still while you position YOURSELF...which is confusing for a dog ,to start with ..hence he may get anxious, wondering just what he is supposed to be doing.... then this is repeated- so the dog is not being guided to walk at heel- he is learning to "pull - get stopped"- get held in position-wait for handler-walk off-pull, etc etc..." Nekhbet's explanation and suggested method sounds good let us know how you go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete.the.dog Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 Maybe yesterdays stopping when he pulled taught him something, or maybe it was the fact when he pulled I gave him a firm leash correction but no verbal response except praise when he was in the right spot but today he was like a whole new dog! I think about 85% of the time he was walking (essentially) next to me on loose lead! Very happy and proud owner thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 today he was like a whole new dog! I think about 85% of the time he was walking (essentially) next to me on loose lead! Very happy and proud owner smile.gif thanks guys WooHoo!!! Keep feeling proud and happy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 great to hear it is working for you! Just relax and keep up the praise and you will notice a happier more relaxed dog as time goes by excellent!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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