How To Walk A Beagle?

[snuffysmum]

I fell really silly posting this because I have a Beagle puppy (3 months) that I am trying to teach to heel on a lead and am finding it a bit tricky! She is not my first dog, and I have had success with teaching my other dogs (golden retriever, labradoodle, flat coated retriever) to walk to heel on a lead from around this age. At the moment I am using the method that I have used for the other guys - with a choker chain. What I find with my Beagle is that she walks with her nose to the ground either far behind me or pulling in front of me and no amount of correcting will alter this. I know she is a scent hound and probably very preoccupied with all of the smells etc so I would love to know another way to teach her to walk by my side without using the choker chain. Would a halty lead be more effective??

Any ideas would be more than welcome!!

thanks!

[huski]

I definitely wouldn't be using a halti or head collar on a puppy, especially a scent hound who moves their head around a lot and can lunge on the leash after a scent.

I use a martingale collar on my beagle as well as lots of high value treats - soft and smelly things like steak, roast chicken, sausage, cheese etc. Beagles are stubborn and if you don't have something higher value than a scent they won't see the point in obeying you. I used the change of direction technique, so as soon as she started pulling, I'd change direction and she'd have to run to catch up to me. I'd praise and treat when she was in the right position. I also found teaching the look command useful - start teaching it at home in low distractions and gradually move to higher levels of distraction when it becomes solid.

Beagles can be tricky to teach to walk on a loose leash because their scent drive can be very high and they are easily distracted. The key is teaching them that they get no where by pulling, I am happy for my beagle to scent on a walk as long as she isn't pulling and gives me attention when I command it.

Edited June 15, 2009 by huski

[Nekhbet]

you do NOT use chokers on pups under 6 months of age - EVER. We dont even do it with security dogs.

further to that you should be teaching your puppy to focus and follow you naturally not wrangling it into place by punishments. You will also cause 'learned helplessness' where constant punishments means they lose their effect and the dog will do what it wants irrespective of your corrections because hey, its gonna get it anyway.

start off in the backyard and have the dog on a flat collar, unfed and have some treats. Call the dog to you excitedly and as soon as it even looks at you 'YAAAAAAAY GOOD DOG' show the food have the puppy run to you, feed, repeat. You want the pup to bond to you, to WANT to work. Its a baby! The start mocining onto the street in front of your home, again let the pup explore what the leash means, what the boundries are and make it more interested in you. Again no chain required and should not be. A hungry pup will learn faster too another trick is to just feed the pup through training.

What you are doing is the same as putting a foreign language book in front of a 5 year old child and smacking it about the head for not understanding it... without guidance, encouragement and leadership they will learn nothing, and punishments do not speed up the process.

if you are needing to use chains on baby puppies you are not training correctly at all.

[snuffysmum]

Thanks for the advice Huski, I will try using treats that are "smellier" obviously my schmakos don't cut it. I really appreciated the kind tone of your response too, as opposed to the quite abrupt and unpleasant other response. Unfortunately, it was rather upsetting to me, and I will not be posting or using this forum again. Thanks anyway

FYI - The obediance school I attended gave me a choker chain to train my first pup when he was 12 weeks old so I guess I trusted their information, and have always gone with it. Up until now it has been successful, and I have had very HAPPY LOVING and OBEDIENT dogs.

Edited June 15, 2009 by snuffysmum

[Cosmolo]

Definitely try Huski's suggestions. Have you gone to puppy pre school at all? Sometimes seeing a trainer who has a few different techniques can help as they are able to tailor the technique to suit the dog. Every dog is different- not all dogs respond to the same techniques, and often the more challenging dogs will help even an experienced handler to improve their training skills.

No need to leave DOL- you'll find there's lots of people with different suggestions and posting styles who can offer suggestions to help you and your pup. Do you have any photos to share- there's not alot cuter than a beagle puppy!

[huski]

Thanks for the advice Huski, I will try using treats that are "smellier" obviously my schmakos don't cut it. I really appreciated the kind tone of your response too, as opposed to the quite abrupt and unpleasant other response. Unfortunately, it was rather upsetting to me, and I will not be posting or using this forum again. Thanks anyway

FYI - The obediance school I attended gave me a choker chain to train my first pup when he was 12 weeks old so I guess I trusted their information, and have always gone with it. Up until now it has been successful, and I have had very HAPPY LOVING and OBEDIENT dogs.

Don't do that - I'm sure Nekhbet didn't mean to offend you, tone can be easily lost over the net

The first night I took Daisy to obedience school (she was about 5 months old) I was very prepared. I had a bunch of dried liver treats in my bag and I had taught her a lot at home. I was confident she would be the star of the class. Instead - she was a nightmare. Barked at other dogs, growled when I tried to move her, ignored almost every command I gave her even commands that she knew. She didn't look twice at the treats I offered her. I was so upset as I was trying really hard but was getting no where. I almost left in tears Until our club president, who had two beagles who were champion obedience dogs, came over to me to look at Daisy and see what was wrong with her.

He asked what treats I had - I showed him the liver treats. He laughed and asked me to give Daisy to him. He showed her the food he had in his treat pouch, soft smelly treats like cabonossi/sausage, cheese, chicken etc. They instantly caught Daisy's attention and she was all eyes on him! He worked Daisy for a few minutes, going through heel work, various commands etc and she was perfect. He asked me what was wrong with her

Don't feel discouraged because every dog is different and what motivates each dog is different. I am now training Daisy to compete for her obedience title. I just needed to find a better way to motivate her, become more confident in my handling and be a more confident leader for my dog. I was definitely not inexperienced with dogs before I got Daisy. I just had to learn that each dog is different and each dog requires a different approach to the last. What works for one dog will not work for all, hounds are notoriously stubborn and when they switch into scent drive corrections will often do nothing much to discourage them, scenting for a beagle is like the doggy equivalent of being high.

ETA: I would start training in lower distraction environments, work on focus commands like look and get them solid before walking her somewhere where the distraction level is a lot higher. Puppies at this age do have a short attention span but it's also crucial to teach them now what is acceptable and what isn't - use the change of direction technique to teach her that pulling will not get her anywhere she wants to go and that she will get lots of high value rewards for walking nicely.

Edited June 15, 2009 by huski

[Nekhbet]

and no amount of correcting will alter this

my tone has been lost over the net obviously but logic dictates a delicate puppy neck should not be receiving corrections from a choker chain if not for anything but medical reasons. Most pups are soft and require little correcting but as you see the pitfall of your originally taught method, it does little to motivate and more to suppress interest in you for some dogs.

I provided you with quite a good method for a beagle that is sniff orientated .. hey I even used a smiley flat collars are all that is required for puppies they learn just as quickly if you push their buttons. I am not against choker chains at all in fact I use them for my own dogs but as I said, never on a puppy under 6 months of age it is not required at all.

[joelle]

The difference between dog trainers is really quite vast. I personally wouldnt use a choker, but I have seen professional trainers using them and really yanking dogs. I didnt go back to that school BTW. DOnt know if she did it to pups, but there were pups present at that particular school.

Very confusing for new dog owners wanting to learn the best way for them.

eta the first line reads like Im a dog trainer --- I am not!

Edited June 16, 2009 by joelle

[Red Fox]

The first night I took Daisy to obedience school (she was about 5 months old) I was very prepared. I had a bunch of dried liver treats in my bag and I had taught her a lot at home. I was confident she would be the star of the class. Instead - she was a nightmare.

Thats EXACTLY what happened with Kei and I did cry. It's getting better -slowly-

All obedience clubs are different in what they recommend though. Mine is quite happy for you to use a choker chain and will quickly push a halti at you if your pup is pulling but will under no circumstances allow a pinch collar on any dog.

Another club in the area will only allow flat collars to be used.

Personally I use a martingale but once Kei picks up a scent no amount of correction will help so for that reason I'd never use a choker on him. I'm not keen on halti's either, I had one pushed on me in our first class and have to say that I'd never use one again. I would definitely consider a pinch collar on an older dog (NOT a puppy) with proper instruction though.

I'd say try a martingale like this one: http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=mart.html

and see how you go. High value treats (like the ones Huski suggested) are a very good idea too.

Hope that helps

[huski]

Well, I was in tears by the end of the class

She's not called the evil beagle for fun

[WildatHeart]

Well, I was in tears by the end of the class

She's not called the evil beagle for fun

u poor thing lol

my dog as a pup and one year used to pull me off my feet no matter what i did. it was an ADHD bouncy rubber ball that weighed 50kg attached on the other end of my leash. Now i can walk her anywhere and she doesn't pull. This was obtained by using a check chain correctly after being showed how to. It only took a few corrections to 'get' the idea.

[BobbyTheBeagle]

I try to walk during the mid-day, mornings and late arvos seems to be the worst for my beagle..

I teach my dog a "lets go" command so he'll follow me on command, so when he gets carried away, i use it and he normally follows about 70% of the time..

[artimus'mama]

Surprise surprise I have trouble walking my otherwise beautiful beagle girl and there's a nice thread on the DOL just for us.

Artimus is just under 5 months and is gorgeous in almost every way. Except for walking. We pull. All the time. I too thought her smarts would make her the super star of puppy school (of which we have now been to two lots of) but each time, turns out she's just good at eating treats. Generally though she is well behaved but the pulling when walking is just not stopping. In fact it's getting worse. The only time she seems to walk to heel is when she is walking with both myself and my partner with her in the middle. But I work 8-6 weekdays so its just not possible.

We had our trainer in the second dose of puppy school recommend the Gentle Leader and it made such a difference in her behaviour. She refused to walk. Or move. Or anything. The little princess threw herself and continues to throw herself on the ground and refuses to move. And believe me I didn't just slap it on her and walked. We spent hours desensitising her to it and making it a nice a thingg as possible but no go.

She is so brilliant at everything else but its just so discouraging for her and for us that a five minute walk down to the park is so difficult. And this is the one thing we really want to be easy for her so that she can really enjoy nice long walks with us.

We're not phased if she's sniffing away - its part of having a beagle but the pulling is relentless and it needs to stop.

Thoughts?

[huski]

We had our trainer in the second dose of puppy school recommend the Gentle Leader and it made such a difference in her behaviour. She refused to walk. Or move. Or anything. The little princess threw herself and continues to throw herself on the ground and refuses to move. And believe me I didn't just slap it on her and walked. We spent hours desensitising her to it and making it a nice a thingg as possible but no go.

I'd be very disappointed in any trainer who recommended putting a gentle leader on a pup in a puppy class of all places!! My goodness. Not a very good trainer if you ask me.

Many dogs find head collars quite aversive even when you've tried to train them to wear them. Her reaction is not unusual - she would have been quite uncomfortable to have the reaction she did, dogs have a lot of sensitive nerve points located in their face which is part of the reason many find head collars unpleasant to wear. The pressure head collars apply to the dog's face can be quite stressful and painful which is one reason you should never put one on a pup.

She is so brilliant at everything else but its just so discouraging for her and for us that a five minute walk down to the park is so difficult. And this is the one thing we really want to be easy for her so that she can really enjoy nice long walks with us.

We're not phased if she's sniffing away - its part of having a beagle but the pulling is relentless and it needs to stop.

Thoughts?

What training techniques have you tried with her already? If you have a read of my first post in this thread you'll see what I found worked for me (Daisy was a terrible puller). However, if you're really struggling it might be a good investment to consult with a knowledgeable trainer so they can give you some pointers - whereabouts are you, maybe we can recommend you someone whose first thought isn't to put a head collar on a pup?

Edited July 26, 2009 by huski

[Nekhbet]

The little princess

and there's your sign ...

she knows if she tries hard enough she gets what she wants its part and parcel of being a hound they were bred with a tolerance and tenacity that made them be able to work all day long through the fields and they have a high pain threshold as well.

the sniffing is OK but to a point. You want her to pay attention to you but you are letting her scent hard which in hound mind means 'ignore everything else'.

dont feed her at all until you go for a walk ... force her to pay attention to you. Work on a long (average not long line) leash, go out to the footpath with her and call her, make her come to you and follow. give her the kibble/food as tiny treats and BEFORE she looses the interest take her back inside and make an insane fuss over her. Dont expect a perfect heel, work on attention and her WANTING to follow then wrangle her closer into a heel.

it may take longer but it will work. Sometimes to get through to dogs like this you have to find what pushes their buttons. If she eats twice a day that is two small meals she has to work for out on the street ... errr I mean walk nicely on a leash kind of way O_o

[huski]

The thing that makes beagles tough to teach loose leash walking to is their stubborness like Nekhbet said but also the fact that scenting is the ultimate reward for them. Daisy has a high food drive but I could shove food under her nose when she's on a scent and she won't even notice it's there.

Every time they pull on the leash and get to scent they are getting a reward for pulling, this is why teaching loose leash walking can be so tough with beagles as they so easily get a big reward for pulling. They quickly learn that pulling not only gets them where the want to go but that they get a reward for doing so. Daisy knows now that she can scent on a walk as long as it's on a loose leash, as soon as she pulls so there is tension in the leash the 'privilege' of scenting is lost - I stop or change direction or put her in the heel position. I also use the 'look' command a lot on walks to keep her focus - if she looks at me without me asking I often praise her and give her a treat, so she sees the value of focusing on me and walking nicely on the leash.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Another thing to try is to actively use sniffs and scenting as a reward that has to be worked for and put it on cue - ie, "go sniff". So puppy can sniff, but she can't drag you over to the tree. Puppy has to give you attention first, with a loose lead. The first few times, up against hound mind, this can take a while. Wait long enough tho', and they will look, even if only to give you the "C'MON IT MIGHT BE A DEAD GALAH!!!!" look.

You also decide when sniffs end, and a piece of super smelly garlic sausage can help get their attention. I have had success with just turning around and walking as well if I cue to walk again and the dog doesn't respond. I don't yank, or move quickly, I just start moving and as they're on a lead, they have to follow. My dogs are large tho' and I can't sled them. I'd be more careful with a smaller dog. If your body language is right, most dogs will follow you if you purposefully start moving but I also think it's important to give them an opportunity to respond to a cue first.

With dogs who adore X, make sure that X happens on your terms. But don't try and ban X, because my experience is that a hound will find its own way if you don't provide a way. Patience and consistency takes you a long way with hounds, it might seem maddening at first, but once they realise you mean business they settle down to working the system to their advantage.

I call walking around the neighborhood on a loose lead "loose lead walking". I don't ask them to heel - heeling is formal obedience work for us. It's useful to be able to call them in close if you have to share a footpath with another dog or person, but part of what exercises a dog on a walk is the exercising of their brain. Reading pee mail, training and if you allow it, meeting and greeting other dogs and people all help do this. Good luck!

Edit - Huski and I must have been writing about similar things at the same time - snap!

Edited July 26, 2009 by SkySoaringMagpie

[huski]

With dogs who adore X, make sure that X happens on your terms. But don't try and ban X, because my experience is that a hound will find its own way if you don't provide a way. Patience and consistency takes you a long way with hounds, it might seem maddening at first, but once they realise you mean business they settle down to working the system to their advantage.

Totally agree with this - I walk Daisy down to my local sport oval and we'll stop and do a bit of training. At the end I'll let her have 'free' time where she can walk further ahead and scent to her hearts content and then I'll call her back and we'll do a bit more training and then I'll release her again and so on and so forth. It also works in my favour because she learns if I interrupt her scenting she'll get to do lots of fun training and get lots of rewards for giving me focus.

I call walking around the neighborhood on a loose lead "loose lead walking". I don't ask them to heel - heeling is formal obedience work for us. It's useful to be able to call them in close if you have to share a footpath with another dog or person, but part of what exercises a dog on a walk is the exercising of their brain. Reading pee mail, training and if you allow it, meeting and greeting other dogs and people all help do this. Good luck!

I agree on the difference between loose leash walking and heel too - I expect loose leash walking when we are out and about but when I say 'heel' I expect the dog to come to formal heel position with 110% attention and focus on me. I can do this with Daisy on walks now (after a lot of training and time and patience!) - I say 'look' or 'heel' and she'll come to heel position and give me all her attention. I wouldn't expect her to heel the entire walk though!

[pcarr]

my 5 month beagle puppy was a disaster the night we started obedience training, which was all about walking, poor thing wanted to sniff and play with the other dogs, and the trainer kept yelling "You, with the beagle"

i had to basically drag her the entire time, and she was choking, with huge slobbers coming out of her mouth, i hated the entire experience, and to make it worse, we had been having probs with walking to start, as we had been using a harness - and she was doing the lay down and refuse to move, if we were lucky enough to catch her to put it on

although the walker lead is called a clicker - has anyone else heard of this - seems like a choker to me, but I am very new to this puppy training, but am loving it

[SkySoaringMagpie]

my 5 month beagle puppy was a disaster the night we started obedience training, which was all about walking, poor thing wanted to sniff and play with the other dogs, and the trainer kept yelling "You, with the beagle"

i had to basically drag her the entire time, and she was choking, with huge slobbers coming out of her mouth, i hated the entire experience, and to make it worse, we had been having probs with walking to start, as we had been using a harness - and she was doing the lay down and refuse to move, if we were lucky enough to catch her to put it on

although the walker lead is called a clicker - has anyone else heard of this - seems like a choker to me, but I am very new to this puppy training, but am loving it

In my view the lay down and refuse to move thing is a sign you need to change classes and training approach. If the instructor did not give you techniques to use instead of dragging, find another class.

Many hounds (terriers and arctic breeds) don't do well in 1 hour standard classes unless the instructor and the handler are particularly cluey. Find a class where they are happy for you to train 5 minutes on, 5 minutes off (in a crate or tied up). Classes are for teaching you things to practice at home anyway, they are not for the bulk of your training, or for showing everyone how fabulously well trained your dog is. If the instructor can't deal with your dog refusing to move, it's instructor fail, not dog fail, or your fail.

A clicker is a small plastic object that makes a clicking sound that you use to mark the behaviour you want to see. It has nothing to do with the lead. A lead is a back-stop security device to stop your dog running away and/or self-rewarding. It is not a training device.

For all the Beagle people reading who are struggling with training, I recommend the book "When Pigs Fly: Training Success with Impossible Dogs" by Jane Killion