Reddii Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I'm not sure where all this "2o2o causes strain" has come from. I have never seen any official study to say so and as Bec mentioned earlier, I was told of a study to say that most of the impact on an AF is taken in the shoulders on the way up and that b/c of this, the repetition required for reliable running contacts is more likely to cause strain. Is there any study work done to say that 2o2o is safe? Common sense says to me that a 22 kg high drive dog landing in a 2o2o off an A-frame is not really that desirable. Rear end awareness work is done all the time, but basic laws of motion dictate that a heavier dog will have more trouble pulling up, no matter how much rear end work you put into them. Thus our 2o2o contact work is pretty sloppy, but I'm not interested in drilling it to perfection. I don't want to get into the discussion about whether it is safe or not, suffice to say both mine do 2o2o, but if a dog is not performing 2o/2o successfully to me it means that it either a. doesn't understand the crieteria or b. has not done sufficient work in either or both a lower height and rear end awareness. (Potentially guilty of running dogs in both categories at one point or another.) Dogs should not have to be drilled to the point of injury to proof any behaviour, if you are teaching effectively it is not necessary. I think an important point is that the wieght of a dog is really pretty irrelevant - the heavier the dog the heavier its build and more able to cope with the demands of its activity. (overweight dogs of any build are always going to have problems.) A dog should not be doing the a-frame at full height if it is consistently failing in the desired contact behaviour, whatever that might be. (This includes creeping into 2o2o or creeping down the contact at all.) They should be perfect on the contact plank before moving on and then so on until they are doing full height contacts. One of my dogs is about to come off contacts altogether because I am not happy with his understanding. We will just be running jumpers for a while until we fix the problem. Having said that there are dogs that just hurl themselves over jumps as well - none of what a dog does on an agility course is natural to them. Like people, some are just more athletic than others and will use their natural gift. That said a reasonable dog that uses their potential 100% will always beat a great dog with wasted potential. I think it is up to us to make sure they understand what we are asking for and to make sure they are physically equipped to do it safely. Same goes for any active pursuit our dogs are involved in - flyball, frisbee, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Reddii - I'm well aware of how much I've confused my dog. :D Hindsight is a wonderful thing. As a complete novice I got caught up in the 2o2o is good, no running contacts are better, coming to the realisation that running contacts are difficult to teach reliability if you don't have access to equipment and going back to 2o2o. Add to that the mexican stand off (due to the confusion) at the top of the a-frame which meant I used to quick release her once she touched the colour in the ring because it was taking too long. Yes at this stage I should've pulled her out of the ring until she understood it. She does a brilliant 2o2o at the base of any equipment, and does 2o2o at training no issues under distraction, at distance with me in front, behind and jumping around like a twit. Put it in the ring and because I used to quick release it's become a point of confusion. I can't train in the ring, so I tolerate what she gives me. She hasn't not touched a contact since Novice, and she's 3 passes off ADM. She's not overweight BTW. She's 1/2 Lab. And I disagree that weight is not relevant. You have a 22 kg dog who is quite capable with goining head to head speed wise with most of the BC's in the ring in Vic, versus a 16 kg BC. It's a bit like saying that a Jeep should be able to handle a crash at 150 km an hour because it's bigger and stronger built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) You said that 4 on the floor would work for unmotivated dogs. I did not say that at all. I said I thought running was fine for unmotivated dogs, ie dogs that trot across the contact with no real drive to get to the next obstacle. I don't consider mine even slightly unmotivated. They are just very calm and quiet and don't see the need to go jumping off of A frames when they can walk down them. Calm and quiet does not mean that they are not enjoying their agility. They are just calm and quiet. I have already said I misunderstood what you were saying. My dogs are calm and quiet too in the ring (not so calm or quiet while they are waiting to go in though ). Edited June 25, 2009 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Is there any study work done to say that 2o2o is safe?Common sense says to me that a 22 kg high drive dog landing in a 2o2o off an A-frame is not really that desirable. Rear end awareness work is done all the time, but basic laws of motion dictate that a heavier dog will have more trouble pulling up, no matter how much rear end work you put into them. Thus our 2o2o contact work is pretty sloppy, but I'm not interested in drilling it to perfection. no I don't think there is a study to say it's safe, just a study to say it is less likely to cause strain than running. I agree with you though, it does make sense that the heavier the dog, the harder it would be. Funnily enough my bigger heavier dog seems to find it much easier than my very light dog, but I think it's related more to training than size. She also has a much nicer ascent than my lighter dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 She does a brilliant 2o2o at the base of any equipment, and does 2o2o at training no issues under distraction, at distance with me in front, behind and jumping around like a twit. Put it in the ring and because I used to quick release it's become a point of confusion. I can't train in the ring, so I tolerate what she gives me. She hasn't not touched a contact since Novice, and she's 3 passes off ADM. That's nearly exactly what I went through with Trim. For ages I took what she gave me in the ring, even though she had a perfect 2o2o in training. This year I decided zero tolerance. I don't train in the ring, but if she does not hold her position, I remove her & she doesn't get to continue. She has worked this out really fast. It only took a few times & she has been 100% reliable in trials for a few months now. The big bonus is that she no longer has confusion and her contacts are heaps faster than they have ever been. We still have some striding issue to work through but it was the best thing I ever did, for both of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 Poppy has really good 2o2o on seesaw and dog walk. She lovessss doing contacts and is a total pest as she will bolt over and jump on contacts to do her 2o2o, even when we are trying to pack up. She also isn't just touching her nose on the ground, she transfers the weight on to her hind end really nicely. Half height A frame - no problems. It wasn't that she doesn't understand. She just physically can't stop herself. You can see her really trying. Now she is only young and has only been on the A frame for 4 weeks and only at full height for 1 go so she will obviously improve. Brock had the same problem and about 6 months into his more advanced training just offered the 2o2o one day. I nearly fainted! The interesting thing is that when I ask for the drop she was coming off the A frame with a heap less impact on her front legs. I can only assume that her attempt to get into 2o2o was causing more momentum. She is a little, stocky border collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 This has worked wonders in just 3 trials for us! The self rewarding stupidity has stopped and I now have a reliable stop on the contacts (until next time I don't! ). She does a brilliant 2o2o at the base of any equipment, and does 2o2o at training no issues under distraction, at distance with me in front, behind and jumping around like a twit. Put it in the ring and because I used to quick release it's become a point of confusion. I can't train in the ring, so I tolerate what she gives me. She hasn't not touched a contact since Novice, and she's 3 passes off ADM. That's nearly exactly what I went through with Trim. For ages I took what she gave me in the ring, even though she had a perfect 2o2o in training. This year I decided zero tolerance. I don't train in the ring, but if she does not hold her position, I remove her & she doesn't get to continue. She has worked this out really fast. It only took a few times & she has been 100% reliable in trials for a few months now. The big bonus is that she no longer has confusion and her contacts are heaps faster than they have ever been. We still have some striding issue to work through but it was the best thing I ever did, for both of us. :D This has worked wonders in just 3 trials for us! The self rewarding stupidity has stopped and I now have a reliable stop on the contacts (until next time I don't! ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Poppy has really good 2o2o on seesaw and dog walk. She lovessss doing contacts and is a total pest as she will bolt over and jump on contacts to do her 2o2o, even when we are trying to pack up. She also isn't just touching her nose on the ground, she transfers the weight on to her hind end really nicely. Half height A frame - no problems. It wasn't that she doesn't understand. She just physically can't stop herself. You can see her really trying. Now she is only young and has only been on the A frame for 4 weeks and only at full height for 1 go so she will obviously improve. Brock had the same problem and about 6 months into his more advanced training just offered the 2o2o one day. I nearly fainted! The interesting thing is that when I ask for the drop she was coming off the A frame with a heap less impact on her front legs. I can only assume that her attempt to get into 2o2o was causing more momentum. She is a little, stocky border collie. Jules, by the sound of it I think you need to do more work on her body awareness. Seems you have gone from 1/2 height to full height too quickly and she isn't controlling her body effectively (as you said.) Is it possible to go back to 1/2 height and then SLOWLY (like one link at a time) move to full height? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 No because I don't have my own A Frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Do you think she is having problems adjusting to the steepness of the full size A-Frame? The half size one, was that an actual smaller A-Frame or the big one but at a lower height? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 Yes it is the steepness. It doesn't take much for me to physically help her slow down and she is fine. Back chaining on full height she was fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 This has worked wonders in just 3 trials for us! The self rewarding stupidity has stopped and I now have a reliable stop on the contacts (until next time I don't! ). She does a brilliant 2o2o at the base of any equipment, and does 2o2o at training no issues under distraction, at distance with me in front, behind and jumping around like a twit. Put it in the ring and because I used to quick release it's become a point of confusion. I can't train in the ring, so I tolerate what she gives me. She hasn't not touched a contact since Novice, and she's 3 passes off ADM. That's nearly exactly what I went through with Trim. For ages I took what she gave me in the ring, even though she had a perfect 2o2o in training. This year I decided zero tolerance. I don't train in the ring, but if she does not hold her position, I remove her & she doesn't get to continue. She has worked this out really fast. It only took a few times & she has been 100% reliable in trials for a few months now. The big bonus is that she no longer has confusion and her contacts are heaps faster than they have ever been. We still have some striding issue to work through but it was the best thing I ever did, for both of us. Thanks for understanding guys I don't need a lecture on this as I know very well what I've done wrong, so thanks for not giving it to me. I would walk her out of the ring on a blown 2o2o IF I was 110% sure she understood her criteria in the ring. I don't think she does. She still hits her contact, still doesn't release from it until I ask her, it's just not in 2o2o. If she starts blowing them completely, then we'll go right back to day dot and look at another option. Looking on the bright side, I now know what I won't do with my next dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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