JulesP Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Just started doing the A Frame with Poppy. Last week on a lower frame she had no problems with her 2o2o. This week at almost full height she had problems slowing herself down. She wanted to do the 2o2o but had trouble staying on the A Frame. Any tips for helping her? Still not convinced about 2o2o on a A frame either!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Just started doing the A Frame with Poppy. Last week on a lower frame she had no problems with her 2o2o. This week at almost full height she had problems slowing herself down. She wanted to do the 2o2o but had trouble staying on the A Frame. Any tips for helping her? Still not convinced about 2o2o on a A frame either!! I saw an article once where a woman was using marker training to teach the dog to rock back on the A-frame 2o2o, so that the rewarded position required the dog's weight to be over his back legs not his front legs. Then backchaining the rest of the A-frame. Not sure where I saw it sorry, so maybe not much use. :D I've heard that performing a 2o2o contact on the A-frame can really jar and stress a dog's elbows, especially a big fast dog, but not sure if that's true or just a bit of an urbal myth. Would be interested in finding out if anyone else knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 What did she do? What do you mean she had problems staying on the A-Frame? Did she slide down the bottom part, did she land and bounce? How have you trained your 2o2o? Kaos has only done the full sized A-Frame a few times. The last time I noticed that he slid the last bit down, I assume from putting on the brakes to get his 2o2o. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Poppy does GD/SG 2o2o. She lovessss doing them and is a menace when packing up the equipment as she jumps on all boards on the ground to assume the position, lol. She had trouble going down the A frame slowly enough so that she could stop with 2 feet on. It was suggested that I ask for the contact earlier, this resulted in an immediate stop and her trying to nose touch on the top of the A frame. Then a very slow downwards until she got to the bottom. Want something in between I guess. Might just be a matter of practice. She is a tad too enthusiastic on the seesaw too and hits it with so much force that she is getting bounced off! Then still trying to nose touch and I have to rescue her from being hit by the seesaw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Have you back chained the full size a-frame? So have the dog jump on from the side and resume the contact position? Did you proof the behavior on the low size aframe before raising the height to the full size? You mention that you have only just started the a-frame last week - Why the sudden rush to get it to full heigh (understand that might be a club issue though and out of your control). Edited June 3, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 You said she was going too fast to get her 2o2o. So what did she do? Did she continue to run through the contact? Jump off? Bounce off? Did she stop? With your seesaw have you worked on teaching her to control the bang? What has been suggested to me for Kaos's sliding is stride regulators, I don't know how to use them though, so may try to find someone who does to help out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I've heard that performing a 2o2o contact on the A-frame can really jar and stress a dog's elbows, especially a big fast dog, but not sure if that's true or just a bit of an urbal myth. Would be interested in finding out if anyone else knows. Yes it can, and shoulders as well. I can see it clearly with Darcy who is about 22 kg and it's too much jar for my liking. She was fine when her contacts were crap and she'd creep down the A-frame. Now she's more confident with her 2o2o, even though she leans way back onto her hind end you can still it in her shoulders/elbows at the moment where she drops into 2o2o. I have seen a dicussion on Clean Run that the amount of concussion on the joints is no more than what they experience jumping out of a car, but I'm still not comfortable with it. I just don't drill her over contacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 ness - all out of my control. Kavik, she is running down the a frame too fast to stop at the bottom. So she is doing her nose touches with all feet on the ground. I can see her thinking about stopping. If I physically give her a hand to stop, she is like 'thanks mum'. She isn't jumping off, all colour is being touched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Well, you could just use what she does then if you wanted to That would be a legitimate contact, though not what most train for. If you really think she can't stop that quickly, you could just proof the nose touch with four feet on ground, unless you really want to teach a 2o2o. Have you gotten her to jump on the A-Frame from the side as ness suggested? I did this with Kaos the first time, no running the A-Frame, just getting into position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 What I want doesn't really come into it They have stopped back chaining like that, don't know why. Not that I think it is the issue as she popped straight into 2o2o when the A frame was lower. I don't have very coordinated border collies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I had alot of issues with Charlie being able to stop himself at the bottom. I started off lowering the A Frame but it wasn't really teaching him to adjust himself as the angle was different. So I worked on backchaining it, so that he learnt to get into position with increasing momentum carrying him over. When Ronda Carter came out earlier in the year she suggested using stride regulators with him so that he could get his stride right to end up in the right position. What I discovered, however, is that if I carried raw chicken bits he was capable of stopping 100% of the time Turns out he knew how to adjust when it was really worth his while... She also mentioned a study that was done in the US over 3 years which examined the impact on dogs joints going over the A Frame with each popular end behaviour and they discovered that there was not much difference between running and 2o2o. In fact the greatest impact on the dog was actually during the up phase of the AFrame. Considering how many repetitions are required to perfect a running vs a 2o2o (which can be done without the equipment for the majority of it) t is actually less strenuous for the dog to do a 2o2o. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 She also mentioned a study that was done in the US over 3 years which examined the impact on dogs joints going over the A Frame with each popular end behaviour and they discovered that there was not much difference between running and 2o2o. In fact the greatest impact on the dog was actually during the up phase of the AFrame. Do you have the details of that? I'd love to go and look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 She also mentioned a study that was done in the US over 3 years which examined the impact on dogs joints going over the A Frame with each popular end behaviour and they discovered that there was not much difference between running and 2o2o. In fact the greatest impact on the dog was actually during the up phase of the AFrame. Do you have the details of that? I'd love to go and look it up. No I don't sorry, it was only mentioned briefly during the seminar when people were discussing different end behaviours. I was interested too and meant to ask her for more details but forgot. Vickie may know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I'm curious too I am going to try to teach a running A-Frame (don't laugh ) with Rachel Sander's Box method. Out of the running contact methods I've seen it seems to make the most sense and a big enough target area to see whether the dog gets it. We'll see if I suceed with only access to club equipment. I am going to do a 2o2o dogwalk though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I'm curious too I am going to try to teach a running A-Frame (don't laugh ) with Rachel Sander's Box method. Out of the running contact methods I've seen it seems to make the most sense and a big enough target area to see whether the dog gets it. We'll see if I suceed with only access to club equipment. I am going to do a 2o2o dogwalk though. Do you have your own A-frame? I think it's a great method of you can consistently train it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 No I don't have my own A-Frame (yet). I will have to train on club equipment, so it should be interesting I will do all the groundwork including jump grid to make it easier once I get on equipment. The other tricky thing will be the difference in size between ANKC and ADAA equipment. I might try to wrangle one for Christmas but that's a way off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 No I don't have my own A-Frame (yet). I will have to train on club equipment, so it should be interesting I will do all the groundwork including jump grid to make it easier once I get on equipment. The other tricky thing will be the difference in size between ANKC and ADAA equipment.I might try to wrangle one for Christmas but that's a way off LOL at not having one *yet* Btw I LOVE your signature!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Thanks OH made it for me - he is better at graphics stuff than I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 Moved to a drop after the A Frame tonight which worked well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Good stuff So you're going to try four on the floor instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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