Yearly Injections

[Staranais]

I had a conversation recently with a vet who had done titre testing for a number of dogs and several of them, he found, had lost their immunity after a couple of years.

Sheridan, a low titre doesn't necessarily equal lack of immunity, it just means you can no longer prove that your dog is immune. Dogs can still be immune without a high level of circulating antibody.

Protective level of antibody present in the titre test = dog is immune. No serum antibody or lower than protective level = dog may or may not be immune.

Nina, I've never been in that position, but it seems to me that you have three options:

1) Vaccinate the dog as if it has never received any vaccines before

2) Titre test the dog and vaccinate it only if it doesn't have a protective level of antibody already

3) Don't vaccinate and hope for the best

If it were my dog, I'd go for the titre testing since I think it's the best compromise between making sure your dog has been vaccinated while hopefully avoiding over-vaccinating, or if I couldn't titre test for some reason then I'd go for option one and vaccinate from scratch to ensure the dog has been vaccinated. Other people will doubtless have other opinions, though.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Staranais

[Sheridan]

I had a conversation recently with a vet who had done titre testing for a number of dogs and several of them, he found, had lost their immunity after a couple of years.

Sheridan, a low titre doesn't necessarily equal lack of immunity, it just means you can no longer prove that your dog is immune. Dogs can still be immune without a high level of circulating antibody.

Protective level of antibody present in the titre test = dog is immune. No serum antibody or lower than protective level = dog may or may not be immune.

'Doesn't necessarily'.

'Can no longer prove.'

'Dog may or may not be immune.'

I think you just proved the vet's point.

[Staranais]

I had a conversation recently with a vet who had done titre testing for a number of dogs and several of them, he found, had lost their immunity after a couple of years.

Sheridan, a low titre doesn't necessarily equal lack of immunity, it just means you can no longer prove that your dog is immune. Dogs can still be immune without a high level of circulating antibody.

Protective level of antibody present in the titre test = dog is immune. No serum antibody or lower than protective level = dog may or may not be immune.

'Doesn't necessarily'.

'Can no longer prove.'

'Dog may or may not be immune.'

I think you just proved the vet's point.

Sorry, you said that the vet found that the dogs had lost their immunity. I was just pointing out that you can't actually tell that with a titre test (which I presume was what the vet was using?) With a titre test, all you can tell is that the dog MAY have lost its immunity.

The only way I know to show a dog has definately lost immunity is to infect it with the virus, which I hope the vet wasn't doing.

[yellowgirl]

There should be no need to vaccinate a dog yearly for parvo, distemper & hepatitis after his initial set of puppy shots. Vets used to recommend annual boosters, but they're now regarded as unnecessary by almost every up-to-date vet.

Ask your vet to get you a core vaccine that is licensed to be given every 2 or 3 years - there's several on the market. You can ask to keep the packet insert so you can show dogsport clubs or boarding kennels that you're following the manufacturer's protocol if they give you grief about not vaccinating yearly.

I'm so glad to hear this! I would prefer to vaccinate every 3 years but Madeline had to have a vacc for obedience classes. I gather it's something you have to actually ask the vet about. Any idea on cost?

With heartworm, I give mine the plain ivermectin (no other worming or flea treatments in the tablet) every 5 weeks.

[wuffles]

We just had Satchmo vaccinated with Nobivac C3 3 year, plus Nobivac KC intranasal. This is what our vet recommends. The cost of the vaccination was $59 (on top of the consult fee).

[yellowgirl]

Brilliant! Thanks wuffles

[LittleRock]

Gee l didnt think my initial message would evoke so much talk. But it is very interesting to hear what other people do or dont do... I might have a chat to my other show/breeder friends. Ive just always been the type of person to have any animal from cats, dogs, horses vacinated etc. I only got the heart work injection so l didnt have to remember to give him regular heart worm tablets. But l will admit l didnt look into it to much prior to the vet giving my boy the injection. I just thought l was doing the right thing for him.....

[Cavandra]

Can i just ask how often do use vaccinate?

10 weeks of age they get C3

16 weeks of age they get C3

15 months of age they get C3

Never get vaccinated again.

[Cavandra]

In reference to the Vet who says dogs show low levels or no levels after 2 years, they just dont understand Titer testing or the immune system, and are probably seeing this with house dogs that never go out....There isnt any point Titer testing unless the dog has recently been vaccinated OR recently been exposed to the disease it was Titered for.........If the body has not been exposed to the Virus it will not have a response, it lies dormant til its needed (for want of a better way to explain)...while it is "dormant" it shows as low, expose the dog to parvo virus & then titer it again and it will show adequate levels, as the body needed a response to the exposure.......

If the dog doesnt go to kennels, dog parks etc etc, and stays home & is never exposed to other dogs it will show low levels on a Titer........This is why I dont Titer my dogs, as it is pointless to me......

[Sheridan]

In reference to the Vet who says dogs show low levels or no levels after 2 years, they just dont understand Titer testing or the immune system, and are probably seeing this with house dogs that never go out....There isnt any point Titer testing unless the dog has recently been vaccinated OR recently been exposed to the disease it was Titered for.........If the body has not been exposed to the Virus it will not have a response, it lies dormant til its needed (for want of a better way to explain)...while it is "dormant" it shows as low, expose the dog to parvo virus & then titer it again and it will show adequate levels, as the body needed a response to the exposure.......

If the dog doesnt go to kennels, dog parks etc etc, and stays home & is never exposed to other dogs it will show low levels on a Titer........This is why I dont Titer my dogs, as it is pointless to me......

With all due respect Cavandra, you don't know the vet, you don't know what he does or does not know or understand, you know nothing other than what I've reported he said.

[yellowgirl]

In reference to the Vet who says dogs show low levels or no levels after 2 years, they just dont understand Titer testing or the immune system, and are probably seeing this with house dogs that never go out....There isnt any point Titer testing unless the dog has recently been vaccinated OR recently been exposed to the disease it was Titered for.........If the body has not been exposed to the Virus it will not have a response, it lies dormant til its needed (for want of a better way to explain)...while it is "dormant" it shows as low, expose the dog to parvo virus & then titer it again and it will show adequate levels, as the body needed a response to the exposure.......

If the dog doesnt go to kennels, dog parks etc etc, and stays home & is never exposed to other dogs it will show low levels on a Titer........This is why I dont Titer my dogs, as it is pointless to me......

This is interesting. I'm going to do the 3 year vacc next time. How would I know if my dog has enough immunity in the second or third year?

[Cavandra]

This is interesting. I'm going to do the 3 year vacc next time. How would I know if my dog has enough immunity in the second or third year?

The most use a Titer will be is if you do it about 2 weeks after a vaccination is done, this will tell you "IF" your dog has immunity from the vaccine or not, as many dogs DO NOT HAVE ANY, and so it is a pointless exercise to vaccinate at all........If your dog gets T-cells (memory cells) from the injection then the dog has them for life (around 10 years). The 3 yearly one is no different to what you have always given, the only difference is 3 instead of 1 year, and a change in price.

the Distemper shot used to be human Measles Vax given to our dogs in the old days....how often do you need measles vax yourself? How often do you have Hepatitis shots yourself?

Dogs that get these viruses are over vaccinated ones,ones that have been incorrectly vaccinated at 6 weeks of age, and dogs that have never had a vaccine ever.....Dogs minimally vaccinated have the strongest immune system & function correctly so are not compromised & do not suffer all the issues associated with Vaccinosis disorder ..

[Cavandra]

With all due respect Cavandra, you don't know the vet, you don't know what he does or does not know or understand, you know nothing other than what I've reported he said.

Sorry Sheridan, but your post was very specific..........and if that is what you claim the Vet says then the Vet is wrong!

To have any understanding, the dogs need to be titered a couple of weeks after they are vaccinated to PROVE they get immunity in the first place.....If you vaccinated a baby at 6 weeks & titered it at 8 weeks plus it will show zero immunity, as the immune system is too young & undeveloped to work........They MUST be first vaccinated at 8-10 weeks for it to be effective.......That is why sooooooo many baby puppies contract parvo virus despite having been injected.

In most cases a pup done at 10 & 16 weeks is done for life............a pup done at 6 & 12 is not done at all. Adult titers mean nothing unless you know they had immunity from the injection in the first place....which is a rare occurence here in Australia, as Titers are not utilized here.

[yellowgirl]

Gee l didnt think my initial message would evoke so much talk. But it is very interesting to hear what other people do or dont do... I might have a chat to my other show/breeder friends. Ive just always been the type of person to have any animal from cats, dogs, horses vacinated etc. I only got the heart work injection so l didnt have to remember to give him regular heart worm tablets. But l will admit l didnt look into it to much prior to the vet giving my boy the injection. I just thought l was doing the right thing for him.....

I'm glad you posted though It's all about learning new things. My mantra was always desex, microchip, heartworm and vaccinate. I'm still sticking with the 1st three , but have heard quite a bit about unneccessary vaccinating just in the last year or so. In America it's common practice to vaccinate every 3 years. It still surprises me that kennels and dog groups (obedience class, etc), who should have a good degree of pet industry knowledge, still demand yearly vaccinations. And what's up with Vets, of all people, who would definitely be aware that yearly vaccinating is unneccessary, continuing to push vaccinating every year??

The 3 yearly one is no different to what you have always given, the only difference is 3 instead of 1 year, and a change in price.

Cavandra, is the 3 year vacc the same amount (as in mls given) as the yearly one?

[neatz]

Can i just ask how often do use vaccinate?

10 weeks of age they get C3

16 weeks of age they get C3

15 months of age they get C3

Never get vaccinated again.

The most use a Titer will be is if you do it about 2 weeks after a vaccination is done, this will tell you "IF" your dog has immunity from the vaccine or not, as many dogs DO NOT HAVE ANY, and so it is a pointless exercise to vaccinate at all

If you believe in above then why do you bother to vaccinate at all? (see first quote)

If you vaccinated a baby at 6 weeks & titered it at 8 weeks plus it will show zero immunity, as the immune system is too young & undeveloped to work...

I believe it's due to the maternal antibodies present, that is why there is a course of vaccines. I don't think the manufacturers report that 1 shot at 6 weeks will equal total immunity.

That is why sooooooo many baby puppies contract parvo virus despite having been injected

I suspect puppies are picking up the virus because a.)some people are not vaccinating dogs in our communities at all or incorrectly, or

b.) I see puppies at pet shops at 6 weeks of age being led around whilst their owners shop and let their dog sniff and come into contact with every other dog they see. Some owners have no regard for protecting their puppies from illness what so ever.

A vet I know did a 1 year post overseas in a country that spends big $$ on their dogs but vaccinations are not common. He said he saw many parvo and distemper cases and the dogs really suffer when affected.

I'm all for being minimal but I think vaccination, heartworm treatment etc should be discussed with a trusted vet. If you do not trust yours then shop around until you find one that you do.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Brilliant! Thanks wuffles

Yellowgirl you should get the breeder you got the Cresteds off to vaccinate them, they get breeders rates, much cheaper

J

[Staranais]

If your dog gets T-cells (memory cells) from the injection then the dog has them for life (around 10 years). The 3 yearly one is no different to what you have always given, the only difference is 3 instead of 1 year, and a change in price.

Your dog already has T cells of many types in the system before it is vaccinated. It develops Memory B and Memory T cells as a result of the vaccination. Both are needed for an effective secondary immune response to most viruses.

I believe it's due to the maternal antibodies present, that is why there is a course of vaccines. I don't think the manufacturers report that 1 shot at 6 weeks will equal total immunity.

Yes, maternal antibodies will block the puppy's immune system from responding to the vaccine antigen. Even the newer high titre vaccines that claim to "break through" maternal antibody still seem to need the antibodies to wane a little bit before they are effective, from what I have seen. The one available here recommends vaccination at 12 and 9 weeks if there is any chance the pups will get infected with parvovirus: at 12 weeks to ensure the pups seroconvert, and at 9 weeks just in case they lose maternal antibody protection sooner.

Vaccinating at 6 weeks won't do much for most pups, since most will have a far too high level of maternal antibody present, and they neither need the vaccine nor can repond to it.

[Sheridan]

With all due respect Cavandra, you don't know the vet, you don't know what he does or does not know or understand, you know nothing other than what I've reported he said.

Sorry Sheridan, but your post was very specific..........and if that is what you claim the Vet says then the Vet is wrong!

To have any understanding, the dogs need to be titered a couple of weeks after they are vaccinated to PROVE they get immunity in the first place.....If you vaccinated a baby at 6 weeks & titered it at 8 weeks plus it will show zero immunity, as the immune system is too young & undeveloped to work........They MUST be first vaccinated at 8-10 weeks for it to be effective.......That is why sooooooo many baby puppies contract parvo virus despite having been injected.

In most cases a pup done at 10 & 16 weeks is done for life............a pup done at 6 & 12 is not done at all. Adult titers mean nothing unless you know they had immunity from the injection in the first place....which is a rare occurence here in Australia, as Titers are not utilized here.

Nonsense, Cavandra. Believe what you like but there are as many differing opinions on it as there are on regular vacs.

[goldens]

My vet goes 3 years for vax and after age 7-8, none at all except law required rabies.

Another thing, as most, if not all of you know, ProHeart was pulled from the market here back in Sept. 2004 after it had killed so many dogs, including my golden retriever, Hunter, and only returned last summer. They say it is "reformulated" but it carries a ton of warnings and one is to not give it within a month of any vaccination.

Nw according to them ackn Jan. 2005 when hey tried to get it back on the market, the 12 month version used down there was brought up and Dr. Rami Cobb of Fort Dodge said it was the same vaccine only triple the strength of the 6 month version used here.

Now this time out it is suppose to be reformulated. I do not know if you all still get the "old version" or the newer reformulation, but if it is the new one, don't give it within a month of any vax. Heck, I wouldn't give it at all after what happened here.

[yellowgirl]

My vet goes 3 years for vax and after age 7-8, none at all except law required rabies.

Another thing, as most, if not all of you know, ProHeart was pulled from the market here back in Sept. 2004 after it had killed so many dogs, including my golden retriever, Hunter, and only returned last summer. They say it is "reformulated" but it carries a ton of warnings and one is to not give it within a month of any vaccination.

Nw according to them ackn Jan. 2005 when hey tried to get it back on the market, the 12 month version used down there was brought up and Dr. Rami Cobb of Fort Dodge said it was the same vaccine only triple the strength of the 6 month version used here.

Now this time out it is suppose to be reformulated. I do not know if you all still get the "old version" or the newer reformulation, but if it is the new one, don't give it within a month of any vax. Heck, I wouldn't give it at all after what happened here.

Scary stuff. I've never even considered giving my dogs the yearly heartworm, it always seemed a little excesses to me, one big load of chemicals at one time.

Golden, I'm so sorry that you lost your Hunter, what a terrible tragedy :rolleyes: