Different Views To Socialising

[Cosmolo]

Socialisation and training can be hand in hand- with my dogs i don't let them assign a high value to something and then start training- the two things may happen at the same time. For that reason i don't feel as though i am creating problems in need of fixing later on. One of my dogs who had fantastic socialisation- positive experiences- is my most laid back dog- cruisy and relaxed, sometimes very playful with dogs, yet high drive, focussed and attentive to me depending on what i require at the time. Thats what i want- i think its the ultimate in flexibility and i also enjoy watching my dogs play appropriately and safely with others as do they.

[Staranais]

Huski:

I was wondering if a dog that has been neutralised would be less likely to find new experiences distracting than a dog who has been socialised to see everything as super exciting

I don't see heightened arousal as a goal of socialisation Huski. Tolerance and perhaps enjoyment, but not heightened excitement.

I don't think it's ever a goal of conventional socialisation, but I've often seen it as a result. Lots of well meaning pup owners seem to actively encourage the pup to ignore them in public in favour of engaging with other strangers and dogs, then get surprised when they eventually have to do ooodles of training to remedy the fact that their dog has been conditioned to find other things more exciting than they are.

I like your "controlled socialisation" term.

[huski]

Socialisation and training can be hand in hand- with my dogs i don't let them assign a high value to something and then start training- the two things may happen at the same time. For that reason i don't feel as though i am creating problems in need of fixing later on. One of my dogs who had fantastic socialisation- positive experiences- is my most laid back dog- cruisy and relaxed, sometimes very playful with dogs, yet high drive, focussed and attentive to me depending on what i require at the time. Thats what i want- i think its the ultimate in flexibility and i also enjoy watching my dogs play appropriately and safely with others as do they.

I agree with the above Cos - that's essentially what I want too Although I don't really care if my dogs want to play with others, like Daisy now - she's not fussed about other dogs and if I take her to a DOL meet she will only occassionally play with others, and that doesn't bother me at all.

Poodlefan:

I want my dogs socialised for good reason - it makes them better canine citizens and companions.. but I'm happy to call for focus rather than expect it more or less all the time.

I wouldn't expect a dog to have 100% focus on me all the time but I do want 100% focus when I command it. What I don't want is to be competing for my dog's focus because they've been socialised (and trained) in a way that encourages them to see other experiences and distractions as more exciting than me. Like Cos said above - I think training and socialisation can go hand in hand, and I wouldn't socialise a dog to assign a high value to something (as opposed to a low value) if I then have to retrain them to focus on me and ignore it later on.

[Guest Tess32]

Is the idea of crating/penning a dog and ONLY taking it out to be trained/have one on one time with the Owner, still part of neutralisation?

[Staranais]

Is the idea of crating/penning a dog and ONLY taking it out to be trained/have one on one time with the Owner, still part of neutralisation?

Not to the best of my knowledge - only letting the dog interact with the owner sounds like the opposite of socialisation to me, definitely not something I'd do with a pup. I think there's nothing wrong with crating for an hour or two before training the dog though, to enhance drive to work.

Sounds more like the "Ruff Love" program to me?

[alpha bet]

Well nice to see some different comments coming thru even though readying thru the posts can be a little bit jumping back and forth. Very glad to also read that some of the members here like to pick up different ideas from different trainers and develop techniques to suit their own lifestyle.

Guess seeing I started this line of chatter it is acceptable to add a little more. And just for a note to 'Monah' - I have attended a weekend workshop with Steve so my initial comment was made after considering more than just what I have read here.

Socialising for a family dog[/size] can have a total different meaning that it might have for the people who are interested in competition or training dogs for professional roles. Families in general deal with a huge variety of different situations (new kids, moving house, family death etc.) these can place a great deal of stress on the family dog. Unlike many of the forum members here, families are often not equipped to work through these issues for their dog.

Also believe (as with others here) that playing in dog parks is not the way to develop the social skills required. There are too many factors that are out of your control and it only takes one really bad experience and families will be scared to mix their dog.

My dogs have always mixed with a huge number of dogs from a very early age. Also mixing with many different people as well as other species, such as horses, chickens, goats, cats. In fact just about anything that allows them to increase their knowledge (and my understanding of the individual dog). I have also been running socialising classes for family pets for 13 years and from these observations, the problems that people have, are greatly reduced when their dogs social skills improve. The better they are at playing with others, the easier they are to teach to focus on their handlers. If the dogs develop good manners then their families also spend more time with them as well as take them out more.

Dogs are damm smart. If given the chance they can learn to think for themselves. This doesnt mean your influence is reduced it just means the dog starts to see how he can solve problems himself. Not rely on the human under all circumstances. Because the reality is, that often the family pet can find himself left to fend for himself at a function, while the family are distracted playing with the human friends. The dog needs the skills to cope (at least till their human starts to pay attention).

Socialising classes (and I don't mean Puppy Schools) should be run to help the dog (and owners) learn to adjust their manner depending upon the dogs they play with. A big dog has to learn to pull back and soften when playing with smaller guys. Little dudes have to learn to cope with a big dopey dude who wants to slobber all over him.

The main problem seems to be that Puppy schools are often run for 6-8 weeks by the local vet clinic. They cover some basic training, health and social work with pups and that's about it. Often the schools are little more than a marketing excercise between the vet and the feed suppliers. Unfortunately many families think they have done the right thing and finish their training with that. Whereas in fact, their work has only just begun.

Well socialised dogs can deal with many different situations, both good and bad. The fact they learn to enjoy playing with others won't prevent them being easy fun and focused dogs who are easy to train.

[Kavik]

My issue is not with dogs enjoying playing with others.

My concern is with the other end of the coin - what about dogs who aren't interested in playing with other dogs even from a young age? I think you need to consider the individual dog and breed of dog. Some breeds are more happy to play with other dogs than others. I think trying to make all dogs happy to play with other dogs, when they never wanted to play with them in the first place, is what can cause problems. There is no need to force rough and tumble interactions between dogs. If a little dog is not comfortable with a big doofus dog running into them and slobbering all over them, there is no need for you to put them in that situation, it could actually be dangerous for the little dog.

More important is to make sure they have doggy manners and can meet and greet appropriately, without bouncing all over the place, using dominating body language or slobbering all over the other dog. What is very important is that the owners recognise signs of when their dog is comfortable and more important not comfortable in a situation with another dog so they can prevent problems.

[alpha bet]

Yes i do agree that not all dogs are keen to run and play. However dogs of this nature have to learn to ignore and be non reactive to the doofus. Little dogs can easily learn not to be a victim and not to be a bully. The doofus also learns to leave the boring non reactive dogs alone, hence he learns also to not be a doofus.

Most families who attend off lead dog parks or beaches tend to have dogs who are interested in playing if not they usually just wander along for a walk or sit in a cafe. Either way their dog still needs to have manners to prevent confrontations.

It is the handlers that are usually at fault when problems occur and the main issue is that the families have to learn to be aware of their dogs behaviour as well as other dogs they encounter. This is not usually achieved at a dog park.

At the last conference for the APDT it is obvious many trainers don't have an understanding what or when 'aggression' is a problem. If the professionals don't know how can it improve. Speaker: Roger Abrantes states that there is not really any aggressive dogs, only dogs who shows aggression under certain circumstances.

He belives we view aggression as a negative instead of understanding the different roles it plays within the pack. Most of what we see is social aggression, this is a learning tool for young dogs, However the problem is many of our dogs dont have the opportunity to learn the little lessons because their life is too restricted.

Sorry if I do go on. This is however one of my favorite topics.

[Kavik]

Yes I agree ideally dogs that are not interested in play would ignore the doofus but doofus should not annoy them either, good doggy manners means being aware of when play is wanted and when play is not wanted. When the owner ignores your repeated calls that your dog does not want to play, and the doofus continues to harrass your dog (who has done nothing wrong, you are minding your own business, walking or training or whatever) it gets rather annoying, and possible that your dog will react. The perception that all dogs should want doofus in their face bouncing all over them and if your dog does not want it it is automatically a problem is an issue.

People do allow doofus to annoy dogs that are minding their own business and to bounce all over the tiny little dog who is just wandering around, with the possibility of hurting them through size alone. This does not mean doofus and his owner are right.

Because of this, one good way to avoid confrontations is not to visit places where doofus and his owner hang out. Hence why I don't take those of my dogs who do not want to play with doofus to the dog park.

[Quickasyoucan]

Yes I agree ideally dogs that are not interested in play would ignore the doofus but doofus should not annoy them either, good doggy manners means being aware of when play is wanted and when play is not wanted. When the owner ignores your repeated calls that your dog does not want to play, and the doofus continues to harrass your dog (who has done nothing wrong, you are minding your own business, walking or training or whatever) it gets rather annoying, and possible that your dog will react. The perception that all dogs should want doofus in their face bouncing all over them and if your dog does not want it it is automatically a problem is an issue.

People do allow doofus to annoy dogs that are minding their own business and to bounce all over the tiny little dog who is just wandering around, with the possibility of hurting them through size alone. This does not mean doofus and his owner are right.

Because of this, one good way to avoid confrontations is not to visit places where doofus and his owner hang out. Hence why I don't take those of my dogs who do not want to play with doofus to the dog park.

Agree with what Kavik says and I have a lot of problems with this.

"Yes i do agree that not all dogs are keen to run and play. However dogs of this nature have to learn to ignore and be non reactive to the doofus. "

No they don't have to learn to ignore. Doofus' owner needs to give Doofus lessons in manners. Take a fearful dog and they will not learn to ignore, chances are they may respond with aggression. Do you not understand the meaning of effective control??? Have you read the Companion Animal Act recently with regard to dangerous dogs, it doesn't just cover actual attacks a lot of other behaviour can be classed as "dangerous".

And this:

Little dogs can easily learn not to be a victim and not to be a bully.

How many times do people have to post stories of small dogs killed by shaking or over intense play by larger dogs.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Quickasyoucan

[sas]

Your experience certainly does colour views on socialising. Be glad you got lucky

My views on socialising are based on the fact that I got unlucky Did the puppy preschool and dog park route with Zoe and she is dog aggressive So I am more careful and more aware now.

Ditto

3 dogs actually tried to attack my young dog in the space of 10 minutes the first time we went to a dog park and my dog was on a lead walking beside me.

[Seita]

Yes I agree ideally dogs that are not interested in play would ignore the doofus but doofus should not annoy them either, good doggy manners means being aware of when play is wanted and when play is not wanted. When the owner ignores your repeated calls that your dog does not want to play, and the doofus continues to harrass your dog (who has done nothing wrong, you are minding your own business, walking or training or whatever) it gets rather annoying, and possible that your dog will react. The perception that all dogs should want doofus in their face bouncing all over them and if your dog does not want it it is automatically a problem is an issue.

People do allow doofus to annoy dogs that are minding their own business and to bounce all over the tiny little dog who is just wandering around, with the possibility of hurting them through size alone. This does not mean doofus and his owner are right.

Because of this, one good way to avoid confrontations is not to visit places where doofus and his owner hang out. Hence why I don't take those of my dogs who do not want to play with doofus to the dog park.

Agree with what Kavik says and I have a lot of problems with this.

"Yes i do agree that not all dogs are keen to run and play. However dogs of this nature have to learn to ignore and be non reactive to the doofus. "

No they don't have to learn to ignore. Doofus' owner needs to give Doofus lessons in manners. Take a fearful dog and they will not learn to ignore, chances are they may respond with aggression. Do you not understand the meaning of effective control??? Have you read the Companion Animal Act recently with regard to dangerous dogs, it doesn't just cover actual attacks a lot of other behaviour can be classed as "dangerous".

And this:

Little dogs can easily learn not to be a victim and not to be a bully.

How many times do people have to post stories of small dogs killed by shaking or over intense play by larger dogs.

I'd be inclined to agree with Quickasyoucan here. Yes Doofus needs to be taught how to act around other dogs and take their warnings to back off BUT Doofus' owner should be aware of the fact that Doofus can be over the top and be watching him to call him back when he goes too far.

At the same time those who don't like Doofus's in their face can be taught to tolerate Doofus to a certain point but that dog's owner needs to be careful too, as they are their dog's protector/leader and if their dog feels threatened/worried/uncomfortable about the way Doofus is acting then it's the owner who is responsible for stepping in and getting Doofus out of the way.

I have one of these dogs and she's not a small dog either, she tolerates other dogs to a certain extent but if a dog gets in her face for too long she'll snap at it. She is in no way an agressive dog and her snapping is her way of telling the Doofus to back off as she's uncomfortable. It's her coping mechanism, if she gets to this point then it is *MY* responsibility as her pack leader to step in and make sure she feels safe and comfortable.