alpha bet Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 After reading some of the advice here on the Forum with regard to Socialising I feel a need to comment. K9Force works with dogs in a professional capacity and does work with dogs who are used for protection work, he may therefore have a different view of what is needed for socialising to many other professional trainers. He states that he requires his dogs 100% focused on him. However for the general pet owners this is not feasible, they wish to have a dog that is living and working with the entire family and extended family friendships. Families need to work and travel around with their dogs and provide the opportunity to play and enjoy the company of many different types of dogs and mixing with many different people. After having years of experience running socialising classes for dogs and handlers, it is possible to have many behavioural problems solved by the dogs developing good social skills. Often the problems that I encounter are brought on by the way the owners have handled the dogs. Once they have a better understanding of what is going on between dogs, the behaviour problems their dogs had, seem to disappear. And in contrast to K9 Force I have found that many dogs who show aggression will often improve their manners dramatically once they learn to relax with other dogs. always good to have different opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyliegirl Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) . Edited May 23, 2009 by kyliegirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) K9Force works with dogs in a professional capacity and does work with dogs who are used for protection work, he may therefore have a different view of what is needed for socialising to many other professional trainers. He states that he requires his dogs 100% focused on him. However for the general pet owners this is not feasible, they wish to have a dog that is living and working with the entire family and extended family friendships. K9Force also works with pet owners, including many pet owners who post on this forum. I've done a distance learning course with him, and found him to be very helpful, although my dog was a pet and not a protection dog. I know you have every right to express an opinion, but suggesting that Steve is out of touch with the needs of the average pet owner just because he works with protection dogs too is simply untrue. I'll be socialising my next puppy using K9Force's method, with the aim of raising a puppy that is confident and happy when interacting with other dogs and other people, but which prefers to interact with me. I've seen too many dog owners that can't even recall their "well socialised" dogs to want to go down that route again. Why make training harder than it has to be? Just my opinion. Edited May 23, 2009 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 (edited) K9Force also works with pet owners, including many pet owners who post on this forum. I've done a distance learning course with him, and found him to be very helpful, although my dog was a pet and not a protection dog. I know you have every right to express an opinion, but suggesting that Steve is out of touch with the needs of the average pet owner just because he works with protection dogs too is simply untrue.I'll be socialising my next puppy using K9Force's method, with the aim of raising a puppy that is confident and happy when interacting with other dogs and other people, but which prefers to interact with me. I've seen too many dog owners that can't even recall their "well socialised" dogs to want to go down that route again. Why make training harder than it has to be? Just my opinion. Agree with the above We all want different things from our dogs, I prefer to have a dog that sees me as higher value than other dogs. I don't want to have a dog that would rather blow me off and play with other dogs than obey my commands. I would hazard a guess and say the vast majority of Steve's clients are your average pet owners. To the OP, you might want to have a read of this thread from the training forum about neutralisation/socialisation as it answers a lot of the things you've raised in your post: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...c=43479&hl= Annezelvys, I think you're a little confused about what neutralisation is, it doesn't mean you have a dog that can't interact with other dogs or people other than the owner. It doesn't mean you don't socialise your dog, or that you don't expose it to other dogs. Edited May 23, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 Didnt realise it was unaccepted to the forum to voice a different opinion. guess everyone here is following one train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 You're quite welcome to voice your opinion - was I not welcome to voice mine? Seriously though, it's nice to see a different viewpoint, but why post if you're not willing to defend what you've written? Noone's been nasty to you, or personally attacked you. We've just disagreed with what you said, because we happen to think you're incorrect. You get that on a forum. As for everyone being on one "train" here, we've actually had several nice long threads recently in the training forum about Steve's different programs, with some people strongly for them, some people strongly against them, and many just curious. If you're interested in joining in then I'm sure no one would mind if you bumped those threads to contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 If you look in the socialisation vs neutralisation thread you will find lots of opinions and questions including from me I am still deciding how I will socialise future puppies. My goal is competition as well as companion. Most likely I will socialise carefully to other dogs, with known adult dogs who have good doggy manners, and not let pup run riot with crazies at the dog park. Exposure at trials, shows, training, beach, outside schools etc, but not puppy preschool. My aim is the same as Staranais - raising a puppy that is confident and happy when interacting with other dogs and other people, but which prefers to interact with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Didnt realise it was unaccepted to the forum to voice a different opinion.guess everyone here is following one train. What did you expect when you started this thread? I think you've misunderstood what K9's view on socialisation is about so I offered some clarification. You're quite welcome to voice your opinion - was I not welcome to voice mine? Seriously though, it's nice to see a different viewpoint, but why post if you're not willing to defend what you've written? Noone's been nasty to you, or personally attacked you. We've just disagreed with what you said, because we happen to think you're incorrect. You get that on a forum. As for everyone being on one "train" here, we've actually had several nice long threads recently in the training forum about Steve's different programs, with some people strongly for them, some people strongly against them, and many just curious. If you're interested in joining in then I'm sure no one would mind if you bumped those threads to contribute. Totally agree with you again, Staranais, which is why I directed the OP to the thread I posted above as it is a big discussion on this very topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Agree Huski. No one is saying you cannot have an opinion, just that you may have misinterpreted k9s advice. Honestly, if you met him and saw him in action you cannot help but be extremely impressed. In reply to your post, all I can add is basically (if I may be very basic) K9 teaches owners how to have a dog that is responsive to THEM, not outside influences, inc. other dogs. This works very well with all dogs, nothing to do with protection etc. Then, if YOU would like you dog to have a play with another dog, YOU say when it starts and when it finishes. YOUR dog should be first and formost answerable to you and focussed on you, not more interested in the dog across the street or the bike rider or the ducks (our downfall :D ) I'm a terrible trainer and need to be much more demanding with one of my dogs, so I'm not having a 'go' at you at all, just saying that maybe you have misunderstood K9 stuff, which is vey easy to do on the net, things are distorted when not said in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 There was another thread on socialisation vs neutralisation recently where there were a few different opinions expressed- can anyone find it? Personally i want my dogs to enjoy other dogs and other people- just not more than me. Staranais and Huski- i am curious. Do you want your next dog to be able to play with other dogs at all? If you do but have the dog prefer to be with you, i wouldn't think thats pure neutralisation? A properly neutralised dog won't want to play with other dogs because they have little or no value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 sounds like a disgruntled "trainer" who's not getting their share of the action For the record, I've referred a few "average pet owners" onto K9, amongst others, so far I've heard nothing but positives about him and he's certainly well in touch with average Joe and their dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Staranais and Huski- i am curious. Do you want your next dog to be able to play with other dogs at all? If you do but have the dog prefer to be with you, i wouldn't think thats pure neutralisation? A properly neutralised dog won't want to play with other dogs because they have little or no value. From my understanding K9 Force counts a dog as "neutralised" if it has a neutral value for, mildly likes, or mildly dislikes other dogs and other people, so that's the sense I use the term in. I don't mind if my dog has a mild interest in playing with other dogs, in fact I'd prefer that to a mild dislike of other dogs, but only as long as it's just a mild interest. I don't want to raise a dog that's crazy about playing with strange dogs or strange people. So yes, I want my dog to have good dog-dog manners, and I want her to be confident and calm around strange dogs. I don't care whether my dog also likes to play with other dogs or not, as long as if she does, she likes to play with me way more. Part of that is me making myself interesting, of course, but I'd also like to load the dice in my favour by ensuring she doesn't learn to become crazy excited by strangers and other dogs in the first place. I hope to do competition and possibly also work her as well as having her as a well balanced companion, and I don't want to let her learn she can get worked up around other dogs and then have to spend time later on teaching her to ignore them when we're out and about. I mean, why teach a puppy to go crazy about playing with strange dogs, when I'll just want to unteach that excitement later? We don't do that with anything else. I'm not going to teach her to jump up on me when she's a pup, or knaw on my hands, cos I know I don't want that behaviour in a finished dog. To me, it's the same thing. And I'm not concerned if my dog doesn't ever want to play with other dogs, since I'll spend enough time playing and working with her myself that she'll hardly be deprived. My last boy never could safely play with other dogs, and I know he had a wonderfully rich life with me regardless. I'm pretty content that he wasn't missing out on anything, and if we could have asked him, I'm confident he'd tell us that he was pretty happy with his lot. Hope that answers your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 (edited) Staranais and Huski- i am curious. Do you want your next dog to be able to play with other dogs at all? If you do but have the dog prefer to be with you, i wouldn't think thats pure neutralisation? A properly neutralised dog won't want to play with other dogs because they have little or no value. I feel the same way as Staranais has said here: So yes, I want my dog to have good dog-dog manners, and I want her to be confident and calm around strange dogs. I don't care whether my dog also likes to play with other dogs or not, as long as if she does, she likes to play with me way more. And also that there probably aren't really that many occassions my dogs do play with others anyway - even now, Micha and Daisy play with each other, but rarely play with dogs outside of our 'pack'. I might take Daisy to a DOL meet every couple of months and even then she's not fussed by other dogs, a quick sniff and she's happy - she'd much rather be scenting. I like that she's not obsessed with other dogs. When I get another dog I'll be aiming for that 'meh' factor, a dog that knows how to interact with others but isn't that fussed when it comes to playing with other dogs. ETA: Cos... is this the thread you mean? http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=165253 Aussienot wrote a good post in the above thread, that I think encapsulates what I want when I next raise a pup: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?s=&a...t&p=3641064 Edited May 25, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Yep, thats the one. Its interesting because you seem to want the same thing as i do with my next pup but i consider what i do to get that socialisation and training rather than neutralisation. One of the main things i don't like about neutralisation is that, in having multiple dogs- the dogs don't have a positive value for each other. My dogs have a very positive value for each other and a mild positive value for dogs outside the pack (except for a few that they know and see often) and this is what i like and hope to create with future dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I enjoy watching my dogs play with other dogs but at times and places of my choosing. Good social skills and an ability to focus on me when required aren't mutually exclusive IMO. If you can't recall your dog away from play with others, that's a training issue - and a safety one too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 What poodlefan said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Yep, thats the one. Its interesting because you seem to want the same thing as i do with my next pup but i consider what i do to get that socialisation and training rather than neutralisation. Yes, it sounds like we're using different words for very similar things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Yep, thats the one. Its interesting because you seem to want the same thing as i do with my next pup but i consider what i do to get that socialisation and training rather than neutralisation. One of the main things i don't like about neutralisation is that, in having multiple dogs- the dogs don't have a positive value for each other. My dogs have a very positive value for each other and a mild positive value for dogs outside the pack (except for a few that they know and see often) and this is what i like and hope to create with future dogs. I recall asking Steve in the latest of the neutralisation/socialisation threads if you could have different 'levels' of neutralisation, which he said you could, like you've said above - a dog can have a mild positive value for something (if you think of it on a scale of 0-10). I'm happy for my dogs to enjoy each other's company, although I would like Daisy to be a little less attached to Micha because he is quite a big distraction for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Yep, thats the one. Its interesting because you seem to want the same thing as i do with my next pup but i consider what i do to get that socialisation and training rather than neutralisation. Yes, it sounds like we're using different words for very similar things. Edited to add: I understand that other people might really enjoy seeing their dogs play with other dogs, and might think that the fun of letting their dogs play with other dogs is worth the extra work to get a great recall away from them. I don't feel that way, but each to their own, we all have dogs for different reasons. Perhaps my opinion is colored by having such a hard time getting a reliable recall on my last dog, I inherited him with a very strong desire to run off towards other dogs, and it took a lot of work to create a reinforcer that at all competed with other dogs in his mind (in his case this was a safety issue, since he didn't always want to get the other dogs for very nice reasons!) I don't want to go through something similar again if I can help it - I'd rather spend all that training energy on more fun things for us. JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Oooh crazy double posts, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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