jabbawok Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Hey everyone, sorry for asking a non PB question but it seems inside forum rules and this is the only Aussie forum I could find that gets more than 2 posts a year Just after a little advice about my parents kelpie X. She is 8 years old and a few weeks ago she did something to hurt her back left leg. I was the only persom home and I never saw what she did, but afterwards Amber wouldn't put any weight on the leg at all. I checked her out, suspecting something was stuck in the paw since she seemed to be "clenching" a couple of toes but couldn't find anything. And nothing seemed abnormal about the rest of the leg. The following day Amber was the same, so I told my parents if she's still like it the following day they should take her to the vet. Well it was the same but they would not take her to the vet. A few days later Amber started putting a little weight on the leg but she was still a bit lame. And she kept the paw sort of clenched even with weight on it. She has progressively got better over the days but still won't jump in the car. About a week after it happened I again made it very clear to my parents I was concerned and that I would pay to take her to the vet but it still never happened. She didn't and still doesn't seem in any pain, quite happy and eating as usual - just not as active as a kelpie should be, you know what I mean Anyway, today she chased a cat in the yard and went temporarily lame again after the chase. And it was quite obvious she was pointing her foot/leg a fair bit outwards. I checked her out a couple of hours later and can't believe I overlooked it previously - the knee is quite swollen. So my question is whether you think she's done her cruciate ligament, or could it just be a bad sprain or something that needs rest and maybe some meds to help it heal? The reason I ask is if it's the latter, that's sort of good, but if it's a ligament, well my parents are doing a bit of "it's just a dog - she'll be put down" thing and it's really starting to irritate me they could have made it worse by not taking her to the vet weeks ago. So what do you think? Everything I've read says if lameness continues for more than a few days to get them to a vet since it could be something like a torn ligament. Shouldn't my parents be taking this a little more seriously. It's been more than 3 weeks. Thanks, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Could be cruciate ligament. Could be luxating patella. Seeing that this is a reoccuring problem a vet visit really is needed to try and figure out what the problem is. At the very least the poor dog should not be allowed to be running around like crazy and should be resting the leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly_Louise Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Degenerative joint disease can move really quickly with untreated joint injuries. It's not something that should be left. The damage even a few weeks can do is substantial. Yes it could be the ligament, sounds likely but there is no way to know for sure. I dont remember Chloe's knee swelling up though, just the other symptoms, so yeah could be something else. Only the vet would be able to say. Are you able to take the dog to the vet if your parents wont? Please try, poor bugger might be in quite a bit of pain. If you arent, pester them until they take her, or find a vet that does call outs and send them over to your parents house if you are happy to pay for the consult as you mentioned. And yes, regardless of what it is she should be rested. Unfortunately no one can really help in the respect of diagnosis, could be many things... really the only advice that could be given definitively is that the old girl needs to see a vet asap. And btw, you are welcome to post regarding cross breeds.... many of us have them!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbawok Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 puggy, I totally agree about the rest. Unfortunately my parents haven't done much training, against my advice, especially with Amber being a kelpie X. Whenever I mention (argue) about it - they go on about her being put down etc. I just can't seem to get through to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly_Louise Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 That is very sad... Dave are you able to take her on, or take responsibility for her care? You seem to care about her alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbawok Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 Kellie, yes I love Amber. She's like my own Kelpie X was (I had managed to teach him around 20 spoken and 15 visual commands by the time he was 8 mo old. Easily trainable in the right hands. And 110% loyal. Anyway I printed out what you all have written and showed my parents, only to start a big argument once again. But they've agreed to take her to the vet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 At least they are taking her to the vet Thank you for caring so much, you obviously just want what is best for Amber I do hope it's nothing too serious! Hey, and don't be concerned about asking for advice about a cross bred dog on here - many of us have or have had cross bred pals, and we love them as much as our pure bred dogs. As long as you aren't promoting cross bred dogs or cross breeding, then you are fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbawok Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 Amber's back from the vet. He seems to think it's just a torn ligament, and prescribed anti-inflammatories, and rest (as you know that's the hard part ). If it doesn't come good in a week he said to bring her back and he'll have to sedate her so he can check it out properly. That's exactly what I had read would happen. So thanks for the help everyone. I doubt anything would've been done today without showing the parents what you advised. BTW, like I said my parents aren't very good at dog obedience/training. My father always tells people how Amber hates going to the vet and they have to muzzle her and stuff. Well my brother went in with him today. He told me not only was Amber very well behaved, she actually led him into the vet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puggy_puggy Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Do you have a crate or puppy pen to keep her in so that she can rest the torn ligament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly_Louise Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) If you dont have a crate (which I didnt when CHloe did her ligament), think about fencing off or using 'somthing' to confine her to a small, comfy area. She wont like it one bit (I have a cattle dog and these breeds arent happy about ordered rest), so you might have to sit with her to entertain her a bit, something to chew on, play some non moving games, teach her new tricks etc, and try to make the area somewhere where she can see everyone and what is going on so she doesnt feel too upset. Good job though Dave, its really great that you love her so much and were so persistent with your parents. Give us an update on her when you can... hope the rest is all that is required and she's back to normal soon. Edited May 22, 2009 by Kelly_Louise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 So thanks for the help everyone. I doubt anything would've been done today without showing the parents what you advised. Glad that your parents acquiesced to consultation with a Vet. I would NOT point your parents to this thread, however it might help to pass on to them that we are really pleased that they have taken the step that they have to tending to their dog. Now they know that there is a problem and what it is, they'll be able to do the best they can for it and with any luck for the dog's sake as well as for theirs, the dog will heal without necessity for further intervention. Whilst they were reluctant to see a Vet in the first place, they might do with encouraging congratulations for listening. And good on you, Jabbawok, for being persistent for the sake of their dog's welfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbawok Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 I would NOT point your parents to this thread, Erny, if you mean I shouldn't have shown them you were all agreeing she has to go to the vet then I don't know what else could have been done. They wouldn't listen to me by myself and there was no one else to back me up. They aren't cruel people. They just don't understand a lot of stuff. You know: "if she was in pain she would be crying", "why would she chase cats full-pelt if her leg was injured?", that sort of thing. Anyway, I've been reading up in this forum of others experiences with this injury. I'm now more worried than I was before Amber went to the vet. My parents don't seem to understand the meaning of 'rest'. They've been letting her run around a bit over the weekend and her leg seems to be getting worse. I'm about to tell them it's probably wise to put her on the lead when taking her out for a pee and stuff. What else should I say to them? There's no way they'll crate her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolz Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 i was going to suggest the cruel to be kind idea but as you have already stated they would put her to sleep if it got bad enough so telling her that not resting her could cost her the leg if it got bad enough wouldnt work.. another option might be having a word to your local dog ranger or spca worker and asking them to come have a word to your parents about the damage they could be doing to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly_Louise Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 Dave do you live with your parents? Can you create a small area (using anything you have around the house) that is safe and comfy, but will allow her to stop moving as much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 I would NOT point your parents to this thread, Erny, if you mean I shouldn't have shown them you were all agreeing she has to go to the vet then I don't know what else could have been done. No - I meant since then, seeing as they ended up doing the right thing and taking their dog to the Vet. I just thought (at the time) that from there they deserved encouragement, and seeing as there were a couple of comments (not suggesting unwarranted) about them being difficult to talk around, they might have been discouraged by that. It was not a criticism of you having shown them the thread to the point of convincing them to see the Vet. But I do hope they continue to make the effort to do right by the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbawok Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 Ok Erny, I was hoping that's what you meant. And yeah it wouldn't be a good idea to show them this thread now :champagne: On a good note - fingers crossed - I just checked Amber out this morning before she's had time to overwork the leg. The swelling is way down. In fact it's not much larger than her good knee. And I could touch it without her snapping. I took her down the back for a wee and she seemed to be walking much better, without the leg sticking out so much. Whether it's because the anti-inflammatories are working, or that it's gone down from the rest overnight, I'm not sure. But I'll keep an eye on it and see if it swells up over the course of the day. It's such a shame we're getting into winter now. Amber is a river dog and the swimming would be such good rehab for her over the next few months. Thanks all, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbawok Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 Well this is sooooo frustrating. Amber's leg isn't really any better. In fact she isn't holding it straight much at all now. What I mean is when she walks on it, it's like the knee is rubber and it bends every time she puts weight on it rather than remaining relatively straight. She doesn't seem to be in any pain. And she often "kicks dirt" after urinating with both legs like usual. But the swelling is still there. She was meant to go back to the vet on Friday if it wasn't better so he could check the leg out more. But they didn't take her. So we still don't know what the problem is or how severe. But I'm powerless to do anything about it. I don't have a way to get her to the vet myself. If I say anything it will erupt into an argument. Oh well, the joys of being a compassionate person, hey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) Amber's leg isn't really any better. In fact she isn't holding it straight much at all now. What I mean is when she walks on it, it's like the knee is rubber and it bends every time she puts weight on it rather than remaining relatively straight. It sounds as though she has torn a ligament. This occurred to me once, many years ago when I was kicked by a horse. After I went through the initial phase of nausea and then set to finish off feeding-up (it had to be done) I didn't feel any pain, yet I had this weird sensation that my knee was giving way as I walked. I put the feed buckets down and grabbed my leg and noticed that my knee was able to bend from side to side. Yet I was still able to walk on it to an good extent. The point of this is to demonstrate that pain doesn't have to be a part of it and with other ligaments surrounding the knee I did still have use of it. But it wasn't stable. And had I continued I would most likely have caused damage to the bone. It would also have caused extreme stress to the other ligaments supporting the knee and chances are they too would have eventually snapped which I expect would have resulted in a crippling of my knee and complete loss of control (and hence use) of it. A visit to casualty proved that one of the ligaments was almost completely torn. Prescribed treatment for me was complete rest for 6 weeks (crutches and a splint to totally immobilise it) whilst the ligament formed the scar tissue it needed to heal. If your folks' dog has not been rested, the damage it initially did could have worsened. If your parents don't have it seen to and refuse to partake in the treatment that is required for it to mend, they might be seen to be in breach of the "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act" and be open to the penalties that can be imposed pursuant to that. Edited May 31, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbawok Posted May 31, 2009 Author Share Posted May 31, 2009 If your folks' dog has not been rested, the damage it initially did could have worsened. If your parents don't have it seen to and refuse to partake in the treatment that is required for it to mend, they might be seen to be in breach of the "Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act" and be open to the penalties that can be imposed pursuant to that. Erny, this is the part that's keeping me awake every night. I have yet to come up with a way to explain this to my parents in a way that does not sound "bad". The other thing that annoys me about this is apparently the vet said something along the lines of trying to keep Amber quiet, though it will be hard, and that was it. So even if something "lawful" happened about this they could just say the vet never told them she had to remain off the leg. Yeah I know, most people would understand what had to be done. But remember I'm talking about people that think you train a dog by telling it off when it does something bad, and never praising it when it's good. They're my parents, and I love 'em, but after 8 years of arguments about obedience etc it's obvious a farm dog was not the correct choice for them. What are the chances the vet could immobilize the leg with a cast or something if it turns out to be a torn ligament, considering it won't get rested any other way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polomum Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 jabbawok our amstaff has 'pulled a hamstring' supposedly and has spent 2 weeks in total confinement and on painkillers/antiinflams........our vet said if no improvement in 4 weeks to bring back for an xray to check the cruichet (sp) ligament. Bronson has been locked in a pen 3 metres by 1 metre for the 2 weeks and has last pain killer 2night - leg seems much better - I take him out of his pen at a slow walk for a wee and bring him inside with us where he is tied up to a post so he can spend time with us as well......he's not impressed but coping!!!! Bronson NEVER walks - always runs, and heavily at that so I've taken some weight off him as well!!!!! Can you take himhome with you and lock him in a bathroom or laundry at all?? This must be a really hard situation for you and the dog!!!!! I'd be stressing as well!!! I don't think immobilization is good for the leg - our vet said they still need to move a little so the muscles don't seize (or something like that). Any ideas from other posters on this thread a 'ball park figure' of how much for a crucihet operation?? I think there are 3 ways of doing this op - (just from reading other threads) on this topic..... Ta!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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