Cruel Training Tool?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

There has been a mini furore in the show community recently about a press release from the UK Kennel Club that has since been taken down (I have pasted it below). At this link is a picture of the device in question: http://showstackers.com/

What do you think?

THE KENNEL CLUB CONDEMNS CRUEL TRAINING DEVICE

The Kennel Club has expressed its condemnation and concern over the use of a supposed training aid called a show stacker within the dog show world.

Show stackers are designed to encourage dogs to learn how to stand in the show ring by forcing a dog to balance on four small raised plinths to recreate where its feet should be placed on the ground during judging. The dog is thus forced to stand still or risk falling off.

Currently this training aid is more popular overseas than in the UK and the Kennel Club is keen to see that it does not become commonplace here. The Kennel Club actively discourages anyone from using this product as it could lead to potential injury if a dog falls off, as well as risking stress and loss of confidence for the dog.

Caroline Kisko, the Kennel Clubs Communications Director, said: Dog shows are very beneficial for the health, welfare and temperament of dogs. Dogs that do best within the show ring tend to be those that enjoy the experience the most. The Kennel Club sees no room within the dog show world for any device which forces dogs to stay still through fear of falling, and we strongly advocate that dogs need to enjoy showing to produce winning results.

We are particularly concerned to see that there are sites on the internet encouraging users to make their own stackers out of general materials found around the home which could lead to serious accidents if not constructed properly. We are also horrified that users are advised to put puppies on the show stackers at a very young age when they are unlikely to have the mental or physical stamina to understand what is required. This could potentially lead to behavioural problems later on in a dogs life as a result of a bad experience.

[Just Midol]

I think it would be very, very easy to use the tool in a manner I'd consider cruel...

Surely there are more effective ways though?

[Janba]

I have used show stackers to try to teach one of my dogs who does a "happy dance" whenever anyone approaches him to do the stand for examination. He just dances, falls off and keeps wiggling. You put him back on them and he just repeats the proceedure. Falling off doesn't worry him at all but he is a "Border Collie of Very Little brain"

I can see problems occuring with a dog who doesn't trust its handler or who lacks confidence but with a confident dog I don't see a problem.

ETA the stackers I used weren't as high in comparison to the dog as the ones in the photo.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Janba

[ozjen]

I have used and own show stackers and would have no problem using them again. I do not see them as a cruel piece of training equipment and believe that they would have to be well and truely misused to be considered such. Like any other piece of training equipment, misuse is possiable but to ban them on this basis would also mean that we should ban agility equipment because there is a risk of injury, ban obedience trials (some dogs get as stresssed as their owners), ban sheep herding trails (why stress the sheep) the list could go on there is always someone who will see something amiss in every aspect of life. Heck if PETA had their way we wouldn't have pets at all let alone partake of all the activities with them that us DOL'ers do.

[Rusky]

whatever next ?

Yes cruel and dangerous as outlined in the supporting article and I really have to ask the question why?

Janba ...what can I say ? train your dog kindly and effectively

ozjen when I see stuff like this I think PETA have a point

[angelsun]

To many, just being a part of dog shows is cruel.

I have used what we call "happy legs" many times and swear by them.

HOWEVER, I did see a fox terrier perched on them at a show in Western Canada and in a grooming noose without anyone around him and he was there for over an hour.....

Owner/handler was reported however there is nothing in the rules that states that anyone must be around when a dog is on a table or whatever....only that the dog be under control and 'contained' in some fashion.

Any tool can be used in a negative way, from a check chain to a pair of nail clippers....lets face it, we all know too well that a hammer isn't always used to put nails in boards. Humans have an interesting way of twisting things around to suit their needs.

[nabs]

I have been using the stackers on my fidget girl. She LOVES getting up on them. As you can see by her tail it is not cruel. She wags ten to the dozen! Lots of treats. I tell her to touch and she puts her front feet on and I lift her back legs up.

[ellz]

Geez Riesenhaft....I was always taught when you work with horses, you should wear boots not thongs!! *running*

But seriously.....showstackers are not something to be feared or legislated against. Agreed with other posters, there are far worse objects out there....check chains in the wrong hands, prong collars in the wrong hands, shock collars and even grooming nooses.

[nabs]

Geez Riesenhaft....I was always taught when you work with horses, you should wear boots not thongs!! *running*

But seriously.....showstackers are not something to be feared or legislated against. Agreed with other posters, there are far worse objects out there....check chains in the wrong hands, prong collars in the wrong hands, shock collars and even grooming nooses.

ellz my feet are already destroyed

agree with all of the above. Even slicker brushes in the wrong hands are way more cruel than the stackers. I would not use stackers on a dog who was fearful of them. They are not for all dogs but are fabulous for those who do work well on them. I don't do anymore than 5-10 minutes a couple of times a week on them. Always rewarded with treats and always praised and played with after training. Perri enjoys her "up" time. I wish I could take them in the show ring with me

[WildatHeart]

any training tool has the potentel to be cruel or miss used. it doesn't look like they have far to fall....

[ellz]

any training tool has the potentel to be cruel or miss used. it doesn't look like they have far to fall....

My dogs fall further when they fall off the terracing in my backyard....which they do frequently!

Using show stackers as a training tool is IMO no different to the age old method of "dragging" a dog off a grooming table or step to encourage it to lean forward into a stack. Or for that matter, picking a dog up by its head and tail to table it, stack it or whatever.

If anything, I would personally think that the show stackers are more humane than table training because there ISN'T as far to fall and all four feet are being trained, not just the back ones which would, I would imagine, mean less unsoundness and straining for the back end of the dog anyway.

[poodlefan]

Hard to generalise.

If using stackers can genuinely teach muscle memory and they are positive reinforced, then I don't have a problem with them.

However, like all training tools, the potential for abuse is there.

I'm not one for giving a dog a choice between compliance and falling..there's nothing positive about that.

People teach horses to free stack all the time without having to perch their hooves on things.

Frankly I expect that four thin pavers or secure pieces of carpet could produce the same result.. all you need to give the dog is a marker for its feet.

[says she whose dog doesn't free stack ] Mind you, I've not taught it either.

Edited May 20, 2009 by poodlefan

[Aussienot]

I don't see anything necessarily cruel in the device itself, but am wondering, to those that have used them, how do you get the dog to generalise that the stack position on the posts = the stack on the ground?

[nabs]

I don't see anything necessarily cruel in the device itself, but am wondering, to those that have used them, how do you get the dog to generalise that the stack position on the posts = the stack on the ground?

It seems to train them to naturally stack that way. I walk Perri into her front and often only have to adjust one rear leg into position. Bait her and she should then start to wag her tail and watch the food. She stands still in the ring much longer as she knows she will get a reward for standing still. It really just teaches them not to move about once posed.

Hey PF what will we do if next they deem bling leads as cruel ? Am I messing with my stud dogs mind if I show him on a bling lead with pink beads? Shame on me

[poodlefan]

Hey PF what will we do if next they deem bling leads as cruel ? Am I messing with my stud dogs mind if I show him on a bling lead with pink beads? Shame on me

Real stud dogs are comfy in pink..and they know the girlies like a SNAG.

[ellz]

I don't see anything necessarily cruel in the device itself, but am wondering, to those that have used them, how do you get the dog to generalise that the stack position on the posts = the stack on the ground?

As with anything, success or failure lies within the cues you give. I use the words stand, stack and watch initially and then when the dog "gets it" and I'm ready to move onto the tail carriage, I use the word "tail" and they quickly learn that stand and stack mean to stand four square while watch means to look at the bait in my hand and then tail means get your tail up. It's surprising how fast the learning process is.

[Janba]

Janba ...what can I say ? train your dog kindly and effectively

I do train kindly and effectively. Show stackers were suggested by other purely positive trainers to make the dog aware of his feet (as IMHO he isn't aware he is moving his feet when someone touches him) and he was trained to stand on them with rewards before attempting a S for E. With the ones I used the dog doesn't fall 2m but 10 or 12cm - the height of the average step and the platform for each foot is larger than the dogs foot. This same dog has been known to take of at agility training and do the see saw - for some reason he thinks it is great fun.

[Cosmolo]

Provided the dog does not fall (i don't consider misplacing a paw to be falling) i don't see the problem. How is this any different to shaping with a box where the dog puts their paws on the box- i know when i was shaping this, my dogs paw slipped a few times- a distance of about 10 cm to the ground and she was not bothered by it at all.

I do not agree with a dog falling to the ground or perching on the stackers terrified of moving but i know many dogs that would find this (with the low height stackers) a confidence building challenge with intelligent owners using it correctly. My Cosmo would absolutely love it.

The cries of every tool being cruel is a little over the top i think. I think its obvious that anything can be cruel in the wrong hands- a piece of rope, a bit of wood, a dog toy, a lead- all can be cruel in the hands of someone who is ignorant, unintelligent or downright mean. Don't think everything should be labelled a 'cruel tool' because some people choose to use it for a purpose different from what was intended.

[nabs]

whatever next ?

Yes cruel and dangerous as outlined in the supporting article and I really have to ask the question why?

Janba ...what can I say ? train your dog kindly and effectively

ozjen when I see stuff like this I think PETA have a point

I would never make my dogs do anything they were not happy doing nor would I be cruel to them. Kind of defeats the purpose of having an outgoing happy dog in the show ring. That it what I aim for.

Edited May 21, 2009 by riesenhaft

[m-j]

If the dog is taught positively and wants to do it I don't see the problem. I have seen a dog taught to walk a rope that was very keen to get up on the rope, higher off the ground than that. Five week old kittens that were taught to ride on a skateboard, they were a pain in the neck everytime I put the skateboard down as they wouldn't stay off it and an adult cat to be spun around and wheeled around on an office chair that was also keen to stay on it and cats DON'T like the ground moving under them normally.

As others have said it is how the dog is taught to stay on the stackers that can be cruel not the equipment.

HOWEVER, I did see a fox terrier perched on them at a show in Western Canada and in a grooming noose without anyone around him and he was there for over an hour.....

That is cruel, poor dog, but not because of the equipment.

cheers

M-J